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Posted: 11/16/2001 11:59:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 11:56:55 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Well I've seen it from BOTH sides now and I think I have an answer. Not suprisingly it seems to be basic misunderstanding. The root problem is "advertised dealer pricing." It seems 95% of gunbuyers are unaware that the prices they see on websites and in Shotgun News are "dealer prices." This means you must have a FFL to order from them, to get that price. If you compare the price of a HK USP on RSRs website to the manufacturers retail price on Heckler and Kochs website you will notice a $125.00 difference. But due to the misperception Average Joe sees a interesting firearm on a website or in SGN for $210.00. He mistakenly believes that is a retail price. He decides it is a good deal and wants one. He goes to Gunstore A and sees the same firearm for $385.00 and thinks "Goddamn what a ripoff." He goes to the next Gunshow and sees the same firearm for $325.00 and thinks "Goddamn what a ripoff." He then finds a FFL who will transfer it for 10%. Joe hates getting burned for the extra $21.00. After all it is SUPPOSED to be $210.0. But reluctantly agrees thinking this is all some scam designed to price gouge guns. You would be upset too. We all hate to pay too much. But the problem is this. The manufacturer suggested retail of that firearms IS $385.00. The dealer price is $210.00. Imagine how mad you'd be at your local hardware store if you dicovered your $400.00 Dewalt drill is dealer priced at $240.00. Well, it is. And that $650.00 refrigerator you bought is dealer priced at about $390.00. Your $450.00 stereo was about $335.00. And on and on. The average retail markup for anything is 40%. Sometimes much more in specialty markets. But the standard in the firearm industry is 10%. And it's set up to look like a tack on fee. A way to gouge the customer for an additional 10%. In the mid 80s when anyone could pull a FFL for about $40.00, 10% was more than fair. Unlike a store you had no overhead, etc. Well home FFLs are all but zoned out of existence. The cost and requirements of maintaining a individual FFL are not cheap or easy. 10% doesn't even begin to provide a living. Gun sales are sporadic at best. And another problem compounds this. Certain wholesalers buy 100s of firearms at a time. This permits them to get a BELOW dealer price from the manufacturer. So they get a $210.00 for $185.00. Then they sell them on website and in SGN for $205.00. No individual FFL could ever compete with that. We cannot even buy them for $205.00 unless we buy from that wholesaler. So we do and mark them up 10% to $225.00 and average Joe thinks we are ripping him off. If I was conspiracy minded I'd suggest the ATF set this entire situation to destroy the firearm business. I cannot think of a more practical way to get rid of 80% of those who would otherwise be firearm dealers.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:03:04 PM EDT
Yes. I spent 7 years in the bicycle industry and it wasn't run this way. There weren't publicly available documents that advertised bicycle for $99.95 when we sold them for $139.95. (and by the way, we didn't *make* money at that price) SGN should really force their advertisers to label the ads as [b]FFL wholesale pricing[/b].
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:09:55 PM EDT
anyone who pays MSRP for any gun is a schmuck, regardless of what a dealer says.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:11:50 PM EDT
The FUNDAMENTAL Problem With FFLs And Customers.... is the FFL's.... ...AND the customers. No matter where you go, there you are. No matter who you meet, he's a jerk.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:15:35 PM EDT
I bought a shirt at a store and when the girl had to look it up, I got to see their cost list: $29.95 retail $14.95 sale price $ 2.95 store cost $0.95 wholesale price??? $0.09 cost to manufacture??
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:15:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: SGN should really force their advertisers to label the ads as [b]FFL wholesale pricing[/b].
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Even that won't fix the problem given SGN's wide reader base. The "customer" is still going to see that you paid $210 for it, so why should he pay $385? The solution to the problem is to post the MSRP of the firearms and state to call for dealer pricing. Hell, until I saw one of Steyer's rants about some of the dumbasses who've tried to screw him, I didn't realize that many of those ads were below wholesale prices because most of the ads I was looking at were selling pre-bans and magazines to consumers, not resellers. I had no idea that some of those advertised prices were for dealers only. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:24:28 PM EDT
Shucks...I coulda told 'em that. I do agree with you 100%. There are a lot of folks out there who don't understand what they see in a SGN. Thanks Steyr, and all of the rest of you folks who put up with the ATF and others BS to get your FFL's. Semper Fi
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:27:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 12:42:50 PM EDT by slefelar]
I can understand how an informed customer is the bane of a retailer seeking to rip him off. Look at all the machinations that car dealers go through to prevent the customer from knowing the true dealer cost of the car he is buying (showing you the bogus invoice, etc.). In my book, the retail markup of 54% you propose in your example is a rip off by any definition. Who cares what the MSRP is? Everyone knows these prices are set at the maximum level just to give the retailer an opportunity to undercut them and look good in doing so. I am as big of a believer in the capitalist system as anyone, but even a Econ 101 student knows that opportunity costs are an obsticle to an efficient market, not a benefit. If a retail shop requires a 54% markup to stay in business, then it should not be in business--as they are merely profiting off uninformed consumers who don't know or care they can get a better deal somewhere else. Of course, dealers can all agree to fix their prices at the MSRP and refuse to do transfers for less than this price, but not without serious anti-trust impications. Rant over.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:58:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By slefelar: In my book, the retail markup of 54% you propose in your example is a rip off by any definition. Who cares what the MSRP is? Rant over.
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I don't remember proposing a 54% markup. I pointed out MOST FFLs are attempting to exist on 10%. I personally set my prices in the midrange between MY dealr costs and AVERAGE suggested retail. I have never sold a gun at full retail and would die old, cold and gray waiting to do it. The current situation prevents ANY dealer from EVER selling a firearm as RETAIL price.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:06:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: I didn't realize that many of those ads were below wholesale prices because most of the ads I was looking at were selling pre-bans and magazines to consumers, not resellers. I had no idea that some of those advertised prices were for dealers only. God Bless Texas
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This is another problem. Preban items. Wanna know why so few stores sell them? No such thing as dealer vs. retail price. A preban AR is worth the same price no matter who is buying it, individual or FFL. There are only two possible ways to sell a preban item at profit. One. Ripoff a unknowing person. Buy that preban AR15A2 for $1,000.00. Tell them "It's pretty old, not worth much, etc." Then turn around and sell it for $1,400.00. This is why gun stores offer you F-U prices for your guns. Had some local dealer offer me $50.00 on my Luger as a trade in for purchase. or Two. Overprice. Pay $1,800.00 for a HK91 at fair value. Then sell it for $2,400.00 in an attempt to make a profit. This is why you see prebans priced through the roof at some places. Think about it, you are selling YOUR AR-15. You gonna sell it cheaper to a dealer so he can make a profit? Do you think he is gonna resell it at the same price? If so why buy one at all? Now you know why 90% of most dealers don't even bother with prebans.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:33:01 PM EDT
I love to hear people complain about an "unreasonable" margin and then say they are all about capitalism. If you think that you can do it better, faster, and cheaper go into business and start stockpiling all the money you make. Otherwise, shut up. Come down to reality and recognize the fact that people go into business to make money and a living. The given margin of a product is native of the given marketplace. With the amount of information available to today's customer and seller, margins are thinner than ever. Conversely, business are more agile and able to capitalize on thin margins because they can control costs more efficently than ever, can target their market more effectively and can compete more effectively with other sellers in a given marketplace. Opportunity costs are not barriers to an efficent market. Opportunity costs are the cost of giving up of resources for a x good/service rather than for y good/service. Barriers to an efficent are artifical price floors and ceilings. Natural price floors and ceilings are inheirent with doing business (overhead, scarce resources, etc). Stop whining about having to pay a reasonable price for a gun. Remember that someone on the other end of the transaction will be living off of your $. With that being said, I would rather buy from someone who will take care of me as a customer, but may have slightly higher prices than I would from someone with the cheapest prices but who treats me like dirt.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:36:10 PM EDT
What BYU said, but he said it better than I could have.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:42:30 PM EDT
VA Residents, you want a firearm from Shotgun News or from any other out of state individual/dealer. I have this to offer: I am a FFL holder in Central Virginia, I will transfer any firearm for any board member from Virginia for a flat fee of $12.00. No markup, no hidden costs, just $12.00. The state gets $2.00 of that for the background check and I get $10.00. You find the firearm in Shotgun News you want, you pay for it, I'll mail them a copy of my FFL, they ship it to me, and then transfer it to you. I am located just outside of Richmond VA. I will even go one step further, any transfer of a .50 caliber firearm is free. Steve, Hallmark Enterprises 804-986-7409. email: steve82@mynra.com
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 1:47:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: VA Residents, you want a firearm from Shotgun News or from any other out of state individual/dealer. I have this to offer: I am a FFL holder in Central Virginia, I will transfer any firearm for any board member from Virginia for a flat fee of $12.00. No markup, no hidden costs, just $12.00. The state gets $2.00 of that for the background check and I get $10.00. You find the firearm in Shotgun News you want, you pay for it, I'll mail them a copy of my FFL, they ship it to me, and then transfer it to you. I am located just outside of Richmond VA. I will even go one step further, any transfer of a .50 caliber firearm is free. Steve, Hallmark Enterprises 804-986-7409. email: steve82@mynra.com
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Did you know technically the ATF can revoke a FFL for doing transfers without profit? One of the qualifying factors to get a FFL is you intend to sell firearms at a profit and they can use this as a reason to revoke your license. This is a result of them being pissed everytime someone pulled a FFL to get personal guns at dealer cost and to hook up their buddies for free. But of course there is no grand scheme to destroy the firearm industry by getting rid of "renegade" FFLs.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:15:10 PM EDT
The $10.00 transfer fee is a profit... Next.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:23:00 PM EDT
a pizza costs only .25 cents to make [:D] according to a friend of mine who worked at Sobarro's pizza. i think that 10% is more then reasonable for a markup price. established gun stores around here usually mark up between 30-40% a pre-ban ar15 at a gun store here is around $2000 if its a colt. a gun show price is about $1300. Dark Sun sell there firearms for a very cheap price. i see them at gun shows in Roanoke a lot. pizza eating lib
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:24:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: The $10.00 transfer fee is a profit... Next.
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You forgot "I will even go one step further, any transfer of a .50 caliber firearm is free." Next.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:29:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:30:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: Did you know technically the ATF can revoke a FFL for doing transfers without profit? One of the qualifying factors to get a FFL is you intend to sell firearms at a profit and they can use this as a reason to revoke your license. This is a result of them being pissed everytime someone pulled a FFL to get personal guns at dealer cost and to hook up their buddies for free. But of course there is no grand scheme to destroy the firearm industry by getting rid of "renegade" FFLs.
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Steyr:While I agree with you about the ATF using FFL rules to eliminate firearms sales, I also commed Mr Holliday for his excellent business model. He has learned how to make money at a rate that is reasonable for him. Other FFL's should take the hint.....
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:34:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 2:29:42 PM EDT by tcsd1236]
Originally Posted By slefelar: If a retail shop requires a 54% markup to stay in business, then it should not be in business--as they are merely profiting off uninformed consumers who don't know or care they can get a better deal somewhere else.
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Lets see: paying Social security or self-employment tax, local taxes, utilities, rent or mortgage..etc...how do you expect a gun store to be able to pay that at less than 50% markup? As was indicated above, the mark-up for many other fields is much much more. I'm a home FFL, and even I have to add on for the required gun lock( a lot of my business is collectors, and none of their stuff ever shows up with a lock, but I have to transfer it to them with one), the trip to a regional NYSP center to provide a shell casing, etc.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:36:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: The $10.00 transfer fee is a profit... Next.
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You forgot "I will even go one step further, any transfer of a .50 caliber firearm is free." Next.
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He is promoting his business. Any dealer who did a free transfer for me can expect repeat business from me in the future. It's advertising, just like Burger king gives you free fries in the hopes that you will buy a burger while you are there.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:42:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Poodleshooter: Steyr:While I agree with you about the ATF using FFL rules to eliminate firearms sales, I also commed Mr Holliday for his excellent business model. He has learned how to make money at a rate that is reasonable for him. Other FFL's should take the hint.....
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I don't have a problem with it either. Hallmark_Ent I'm not trying to kill my competition, he is in another state. I simply brought up an interesting ATF tidbit most people aren't aware of. Bottom line, transfering guns "at cost" for any reason gives the ATF all they need to pull your FFL. Conversely, it is because the firearm industry is in such a shambles that FFLs like Hallmark_Ent are willing to do giveaways on the off chance that later you will let him earn a paltry $10.00 on a later purchase. If they sell 5 guns a week, he will make $50.00. How's that for a weeks pay? I know kids that make almost as much tossing newspapers. And they didn't have to get a government license.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:43:40 PM EDT
What the heck is MSRP anyway? It is a [b]suggested[/b] retail price that the manufacturer thinks is the maximum gouge. They could set the MSRP of a Snickers bar at $23.10 and that would have nothing to do with the price of candy at the supermarket. I agree that 10% over cost is too slim to keep a firearms business going with all of the overhead, but something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. I think the problem is not the fact that prices are published, but that there is an FFL to begin with. In Pakistan, you can get a really nice full auto AK for $75 US, with all the mags you can carry. How much would that cost here?
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:45:40 PM EDT
What is this a pissin' match.. You don't have to make a profit on each transfer or each individual firearm sale. I'm just offering a service to fellow board members at what I consider a good rate, considering one of the largest gun shops in the area charges up to $50.00 per transfer. You, Mr SteyrAUB are under no obligation to participate.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:48:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 2:44:00 PM EDT by QCMGR]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Yes. I spent 7 years in the bicycle industry and it wasn't run this way. There weren't publicly available documents that advertised bicycle for $99.95 when we sold them for $139.95. (and by the way, we didn't *make* money at that price) SGN should really force their advertisers to label the ads as [b]FFL wholesale pricing[/b].
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I worked in the bicycle industry also. We made nothing on bike's, but a lot on parts and labor. The closest analogy is the guy coming in and asking for the "Bike Nashbar" price.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:53:21 PM EDT
Before this goes any further, SteyrAUG, if you read my post I am offering the "service" of the transfer for $12.00 not the sale of a firearm out of my inventory. If you are a dealer, you know how this works. If I transfer 5 firearms a month I make 50 in transfer fees. If I sell 100 firearms out of inventory for X profit, I make X profit. What is this Business school 101. The more people that come into my shop for a transfer the greater the chance they will buy some other high profit item. What I'm am offering is a common tactic to get traffic. Now the truth is out, and my offer still stands.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:10:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hallmark_Ent: Before this goes any further, SteyrAUG, if you read my post I am offering the "service" of the transfer for $12.00 not the sale of a firearm out of my inventory. If you are a dealer, you know how this works. If I transfer 5 firearms a month I make 50 in transfer fees. If I sell 100 firearms out of inventory for X profit, I make X profit. What is this Business school 101. The more people that come into my shop for a transfer the greater the chance they will buy some other high profit item. What I'm am offering is a common tactic to get traffic. Now the truth is out, and my offer still stands.
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No need to mend fences. This isn't and never was a pissing match. I pointed out the ATF thing more or less to bring it to light. And I noted your situation obove but will requote: [b]I'm not trying to kill my competition, he is in another state. I simply brought up an interesting ATF tidbit most people aren't aware of. Bottom line, transfering guns "at cost" for any reason gives the ATF all they need to pull your FFL. Conversely, it is because the firearm industry is in such a shambles that FFLs like Hallmark_Ent are willing to do giveaways on the off chance that later you will let him earn a paltry $10.00 on a later purchase.[/b] But I personally feel that it is a sad day when grown men try and build their own business and have such poor opportunities to provide for themselves. You are a dealer, you know it's true.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:18:28 PM EDT
"closest analogy is the guy coming in and asking for the "Bike Nashbar" price." thank god for arni nashbar!!! as was said up top, only a shmuck pays retail...on anything! if a dealer isn't willing to stuff a bill in his pocket for 15 minutes of work, i'll find another one that is. if i can't. i just keep my money. it's called capitalism. i think your premise is flawed steyr. even if the ffl price isn't published, what joker with a casio calculator can't make an educated guess at what that piece cost you. even if he is clueless, i would hope he had the spine to wave a few c-notes under the dealer's nose. campy (i was also in the bicycle biz! campy...campagnolo...get it????) bob
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:24:23 PM EDT
Thank you SteyrAUG, you are a right, it is tuff as all make any money in the firearms business this far down the food chain. The only ones making any real money are the top tier guys. The rest of us feed off of their leftovers. Good luck to you.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:26:50 PM EDT
I would rather buy from someone who will take care of me as a customer, but may have slightly higher prices than I would from someone with the cheapest prices but who treats me like dirt.
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Amen brother. I have been screwed a few times looking for the absolute rock bottom price. I now pay a little more but I have someone who cares about my needs. In return, I care about his business. It is a give and take situation. I give him money for his products and he takes care of me with quality firearms, reasonable prices and a nice place to hang out and chat with other LOYAL customers. Hell, he even treats regulars to lunch on occasion. Now that is a place that cares about his customers!
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:41:45 PM EDT
I'd like to put you [b]ALL[/b] out of business. Abolish the 1968 law which makes it illegal to buy/sell firearms and ship across the state lines. [:D]
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 3:49:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: i think your premise is flawed steyr. even if the ffl price isn't published, what joker with a casio calculator can't make an educated guess at what that piece cost you. even if he is clueless, i would hope he had the spine to wave a few c-notes under the dealer's nose.
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Just curious. Do you do the same with hardware stores? Appliance stores? Stereo stores? Record shops? Gocery stores? THAT was my premise. Do you really track down a independent dealer of power tools to get a $450.00 Dewalt drill for $290.00 + 10%? If not why do you choose to harm the dealers that are the backbone of your main interest? Like I said, I understand why people DON'T wanna pay more. Who does. If we could actually buy power tools at dealer PLUS 10% we all would. Why is it ONLY the firearm industry is set up this way? If I purposely set out to destroy an industry THIS would be among the tactics I'd use.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:32:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: "closest analogy is the guy coming in and asking for the "Bike Nashbar" price." thank god for arni nashbar!!! as was said up top, only a shmuck pays retail...on anything! if a dealer isn't willing to stuff a bill in his pocket for 15 minutes of work, i'll find another one that is. if i can't. i just keep my money. it's called capitalism. i think your premise is flawed steyr. even if the ffl price isn't published, what joker with a casio calculator can't make an educated guess at what that piece cost you. even if he is clueless, i would hope he had the spine to wave a few c-notes under the dealer's nose. campy (i was also in the bicycle biz! campy...campagnolo...get it????) bob
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No shit, Have you been to their outlet store in Youngstown? Great place for deals. The last time I paid retail for anything in a bike shop was 1993 when I bought a stripped lugged chromoly Trek 970 frame. I contacted Trek about a closeout and they told me I would need to go through the bike shop. For a simple transfer they uncharged me 50%. I agree, Thank god for Arni.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:37:08 PM EDT
SteyrAUG Said, "Imagine how mad you'd be at your local hardware store if you discovered your $400.00 Dewalt drill is dealer priced at $240.00. Well, it is." Whoa Partner! I work at a hardware store, member of a large hardware co-op, and I get to buy things AT cost, (part of the benefit package),and trust me, if you want to know what our cost is on a DeWalt, just go to a big box store who has the same thing on sale, ADD 5% to 10%, and that's what we usually pay, WHOLESALE! My boss, the owner is so fed up with the power tool line, and people thinking we are ripping them off for 15.00 profit on a 200.00 power tool, that we have reduced our power tool inventory, and use the money in more profitable areas. The local hardware guy, like the local gun shop, are just making a living. Trust me, if you understand the rules of capitalism, if there was a LOT of money in it, EVERYBODY would be doing it! Now, if I had somebody like Hallmark_Ent that lived around me, and they let me buy for just a small transfer fee, you could be sure that they would never have to worry about their lawnmower starting!! (I am a lawnmower mechanic by trade) So, anybody need a tune-up?[:D]
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:45:26 PM EDT
SA and HE points are highly accurate about how the firearms industry is. It is tough to survive on thin profit margins and at the same time keeping a repeat customer base and your reputation intact.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:10:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:35:59 PM EDT
This is a little off topic, but it's a good example of an odd pricing structure: A new color inkjet printer for a PC retails for $100. It comes with two ink cartridges, each of which retails for $30 if bought separately. So then the printer costs only 33% more (100 - 30*2) than a little plastic box full of ink? [>:/] It appears that the printers are being sold at a relatively small mark-up to get consumers to buy the massively-marked-up ink cartridges later on.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:07:43 PM EDT
I work retail and have for the last 20 years or so. Right now I am employeed by a small family owned shop that deals primarily in candles and oil lamps. The majority of the gift industry is based with a keystone markup in mind which is standard. Mall located shops usually go a bit higher but a straight keystone is 2x the wholesale price. Of course when merchandise comes in, you look at it and if you think you can get a bit more for it then you mark it accordingly.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:24:52 PM EDT
I think small-time gun dealers are an endangered species. There is plenty of competition from huge chains that can get their inventory cheaper. They also have to compete with guys who get FFLs as a hobby and every pawn shop in town - people who sell guns as a sideline, and do not need to make money on guns. In fact, these types of businesses do not need to carry any inventory and can just do transfers. Because of Shotgun News and the web, small-time dealers actually end up competing against wholesalers. That is a pretty impossible situation. You have to have some kind of competitive advantage, and the small-time gun dealer has none. He only has a shot if he grabs a niche. Actually, the BATF was probably doing you a favor by putting hobby FFLs out of business, but I doubt it will do you any good in the long run unless you find a niche that others can not or will not fill.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 8:44:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 8:38:38 PM EDT by jason_h]
I agree with Steyraug, the gun business is a bitch if you want to make a living off it. People just don't realize how good they have it with firearm prices. Bike shops around here up the wholesale price 100%. They can do it because there is no widely distributed periodical that lists wholesale prices on bicycles. My FFL charges $25 over dealer cost if he has to order the firearm, and I am happy to pay it. That is a hell of a deal. If I could pay $25 over wholesale on all products I buy, I would be in heaven. When it comes to firearms, compared with other products, we have it really good. If SGN where to disappear, we probably would all be paying at least 50% over wholesale, and estatic to be able to buy a firearm at 40% over wholesale. The people who are bitching about the gun business need to either stop being so cheap or get their own FFL and put up with all the headaches that entails.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 9:05:09 PM EDT
This was not the case before some Washington agency decided the industry needed regulating. FFLs where never intended to be a profit making business in thier inception. General public could just mail order a gun direct from an out of state source. Some dept. decided this needed a new thing called a Federal Firearms Licensee to receiver interstate firearms. So the middle man was invented. Now the public was told not to worry these licenses would be given out willy nilly so no infringment of thier buying rights would be noticed as everyone and thier brother would be a FFL and could order guns at minimal expense. Then when this plan did not stop gun sales they Clintonistas decided to make this a legal business thing and get rid of home based friendly FFLs not zoned properly against the original intent of the statute. Now we are left with profit mongers who think they are providing a service to the gun buying public when they are actually just middle men deemed needed by revenuers.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 9:08:58 PM EDT
I doubt it make anyone feel any better. I don't really care. I usually buy from my local dealers to help keep them in business. I know they mark them up. But I also know they have to pay rent, power bills, and paychecks. I also know that even at $25.00 a transfer, if that was all they charged per gun, they probably would not be in business long. I like them around, so I feed them. I pay more, but I also get a friendly hi when I walk in, am treated like they actually want to make me happy, and know that I have helped the shop be there for the next time I need ammo, a holster, or gunsmithing. Do I pay more, yep. Am I getting screwed, perhaps. But I know I would hate to see all the little guys crushed by the really large chains, most of whom won't even stock the fun stuff.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 9:20:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 7: I'd like to put you [b]ALL[/b] out of business. Abolish the 1968 law which makes it illegal to buy/sell firearms and ship across the state lines. [:D]
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[:D]dude; that does not put them out of buisness, that opens a new playing field. new opportunities. if you can abolish the 1968 law, i promise to buy only from you. yippie [:D][:D]
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 7:31:47 PM EDT
The problem is the cost structure/tax structure. Guns are taxed at every last level. Manufacturer Pays: 10 - 11% Excise Tax $500 - 1000 SOT Tax (If Class 3) $150 FFL Costs Various Business Costs Employeee Salaries Dealer Pays: $500 - 1000 SOT Tax (If Class 3) $200 FFL Costs Various Business Costs Employee Salaries Buyer Pays: Artifically (By ATF) Jacked Up Price 11% Pitman-Robertson Tax 7% Sales Tax $8 NIC Check Fee Just assume a $100 price to manufacture Gun was manufactured and the manufacturer makes 1000 of these a year and has $1000/month in expenses plus 3 employees making $30,000/year. Add 11% for Excise tax and the cost becomes $111. Add in SOT Costs and the price goes to $112. Add in FFL Costs and the price becomes $112.05. Add in Business costs and it becomes $125. Add in salaries for 3 people and it becomes $185. Now, it leaves the factory. Assuming the Manufacturer makes 10% it now costs the dealer $203.50. Now, a Dealer who has 2 employees making $20,000/year and $800/month in expenses and sells 100 guns a year. Add in FFL Costs and the price goes to $204.25. Add in SOT COsts and it becomes $214.25. Add in Business expenses and it becomes $300.25. Add in salaries and it becomes $700.25. Add 10% Profit and it is now $772.50. Now, the gun goes to the buyer who has to pay. Now, add for Pitman-Robertson and the price becomes $857. Now, add in NICS and the gun costs $865. Now, add in Sales Tax and you get a final price of $925.55. That is how a $203 FFL price gun now costs you $925. Much less consider that to manufacture only costs $100. Wouldn't you love to have $80 AR-15s. Eliminate the Gun Laws and the price of guns will drop like a rock. Why, becuase with a cheapo business lisence you could buy wholesale. which is currently $203 by my example. Eliminate all taxes and your price is only $189.75.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 8:14:06 PM EDT
I said I'd never reply to any of your threads again, and I'm breaking my rule. Hasn't this been hashed out enough? The smart buyer tries to get the best price he can, period. I can call up any of the same people you call up, order a gun and pay dealer price and have my FFL guy who charges me $10 run it across his books. He likes that situation, and I like the situation. It's only you who doesn't like the situation, Steyr, or so it seems to me. He's not trying to make a living selling guns though, he just does it on the side because he is thumbing his nose at the ATF and Uncle Sugar. That's the big difference, I guess. Should that be illegal? Is it unethical in some way? I've been ripped off by every local gun shop around here at one time or another and I've ceased doing any business with them. They're all sleazy assholes. But since I happen to have a friend who has an FFL, I'm set. The 1968 GCA lofted put gun dealers in a position of grand power and I agree with "7" that without the "law" you would have to prove your worthiness to be in business. The world is changing, and with the reality of e-commerce and freer flows of information, the consumer has found himself in the enviable "one up" position. The way to make money is to get with the program. Check out the people selling FAL kits and receivers and accessories--they have a cult following and low prices for DIY guys on a budget. It's all about filling a niche, not being everything for everybody. I can't see how you hope to make a profit in an industry that the government is doing everything in its power to destroy. It amazes me how much damage the free market can withstand and still operate. Christ, to have a decent semi-auto rifle these days you have to assemble it yourself or pay top dollar! I have no doubts that if we remain on the present course, that the gun biz is going to be 100% black market (2nd economy only) on our watch. That means it will be just like the recreational drug market--and already is for those people who are "prohibited" from buying weapons via an FFL.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:13:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 9:58:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:22:57 PM EDT
Well said Hiram. Welcome to America. It's a harsh, brutal, business climate. I hate to see the small guys lose to the big guys.... and there are other factor involved in the value of keeping and supporting the small-time gun dealer..... But... this is one issue I completely disagree with SteyrAUG on. Complaining about margins, and trying to shift the blame to the ATF falls on my deaf ears. It's supply, and demand. If the buyer decides he wants a SAR1... and someone can supply him that SAR1 for the advertised price in the Shotgun news... then he will buy that rifle. If you cannot compete, so be it. No sense in complaining. I'm a cheap son-of-a-b*tch, and I can live with that. I shop around, do the research, and try to choose wisely. And, like Hiram, if I get the slightest sense that the dealer feels like THEY are doin ME a favor.... I am outa there! Too many FFL's with attitude. F'em. I can always go elsewhere, and do. When I cannot go elsewhere and get the service I need, then, (and according with the rules of capitlism) I will put up with, and pay more! Hasn't happened yet.
Link Posted: 12/8/2001 10:28:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: This is a little off topic, but it's a good example of an odd pricing structure: A new color inkjet printer for a PC retails for $100. It comes with two ink cartridges, each of which retails for $30 if bought separately. So then the printer costs only 33% more (100 - 30*2) than a little plastic box full of ink? [>:/] It appears that the printers are being sold at a relatively small mark-up to get consumers to buy the massively-marked-up ink cartridges later on.
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You are exactly right. Which is precisely why, whenever my ink runs out in my printers, I simply go out and buy a new printer! Ink for mine is about $50 for color and black. New printers are only $100, so that's the router I choose. I always stay up do date as well. Then, I simply sell my old printer for $25 or so, just needing carts. Beat em at their own game.
Link Posted: 12/9/2001 4:08:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FALARAK: It's supply, and demand. If the buyer decides he wants a SAR1... and someone can supply him that SAR1 for the advertised price in the Shotgun news... then he will buy that rifle. If you cannot compete, so be it. No sense in complaining. I'm a cheap son-of-a-b*tch, and I can live with that. I shop around, do the research, and try to choose wisely. And, like Hiram, if I get the slightest sense that the dealer feels like THEY are doin ME a favor.... I am outa there! Too many FFL's with attitude. F'em. I can always go elsewhere, and do. When I cannot go elsewhere and get the service I need, then, (and according with the rules of capitlism) I will put up with, and pay more! Hasn't happened yet.
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I feel the same way. I will go out of my way for a good deal. I buy guns one of two ways: From a shop that treats everyone like criminals but has great deals or from the Internet guy who charges 10% over dealer price. If the shop has the best deal, I go there. If the Internet guy has a better price I will drive the 100 mile round trip to his location. The Internet guy is always pleasant and will make accommodations if you need to make a pick-up after hours or on weekends.
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