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Posted: 11/4/2001 5:43:42 AM EDT
I went to the GCPA Show at Greensburg yesterday and it was really well attended with a lot of good merchandise around. Unfortunately, I also saw a couple of dealers trying to sell illegal rifles. First, a recent-production AK-47 type, new painted finish, new wood, new bore, etc. for $595.00........with a side-folding stock. I picked it up and took a look. "Great price for a preban" I said. No response, just a nod of the head. Second, a new-production Imbel FAL with a brand new Imbel logo receiver, and a short Belgian flash hider, for $695.00. Again, "Great price for a preban, nice rifle", I said. Jerk dealer sat there with is arms folded, "You interested?". I know we're all supposed to "stick together", but these assholes are willing to turn a buck at our legal and financial risk. These guys were dealers, BTW, not some regular guy renting a table at the show to unload a few items. As such, they have a responsibility to be familiar with, and comply with, all relevant laws. I was really fighting the urge to visit the ATF table. On the other hand, if ATF is walking around the show with illegal firearms right under their nose and does nothing, should the average AR builder fret over 1/2" of barrel length more-or-less, or the OD of their muzzle brake-that-looks-like-a-flash-hider?
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 6:03:01 AM EDT
It may be that ATF would have very little real probable cause to check those guns out. You can't just look at an FAL or an AK to determine if they are in fact pre-ban. Just because the guns look new doesn't mean they are. They could have been refinished. Low price is a dead give away right? Wrong! You would be extremely surprised to see how many people walk into a show with a gun worth $2000 and let it go for $300 because they don't know the true value. Some of these dealers may not know the value either and sell it for what all the other AK's are going for. Then again they may know the value, but don't care because they picked it up so cheap sometimes even free. If they have $300 in it and sell it for $595, that's $295 free money and a real quick turnover. Sometimes a dealer may be asking $800 for a gun that he has $400 into. You walk up and want to trade your rifle for his handgun. He says I'll give you two hundred towards the trade. He still made $100 off the first gun and now has your gun for free and can sell it for $50 and still turn a profit. Now there may be some illegal guns out there, but price and new appearance are definetly not give aways. One would have to run thge serial number down to determine date of manufacture which could possibly take a week. ATF simply does not have the time to run down serial numbers on every assault rifle at a gun show.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 6:37:08 AM EDT
1st, they are semi-auto rifles, not assault rifles. 2nd I have been to that show several times and have seen the same thing. Dont have to be a rocket scientist (as evedent by my spelling) to tell post ban from pre-ban guns. Some dealers dont care or dont know the law well enough and someone in the end will get hurt one way or another. BrenLover
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 6:42:23 AM EDT
sf46, Good theory but, I am very familiar with both of the rifles I mentioned and I know preban from postban. No way these guns were legal. As far as "probable cause", ATF could just walk up and look at them, just like I did. If some schmuck off the street, like me, can tell just by looking, shouldn't it be alot easier for someone whose job it is to know such things? SorryOciffer, thanks for the backup.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 7:16:09 AM EDT
I saw both those guns at a gunshow in PA last month. The FAL was junk, and I didn't bother commenting on it. I took a look at the AK and asked about the stock. The dealer's response was "There's one screw holding it open. All you need is a screwdriver to make it a folder." In that same vein, I see dealers selling AR parts telling people that ask about things like 3-position stocks on postbans, that "I can't sell it to you that way, but when you get it home it's up to you." Solicting people to commit crimes is stupid, even if the law they are breaking is stupid. If dealer's don't police themselves, the government willl decide to step in and do it for them. The answer that the guy with the AK should give is simply "It's a folder style stock fixed in the open position." Period. End. Let the buyer make his own choices. The guys selling the stocks need to just say "It's a violation of Federal law to assemble an "assault weapon" after 9/94" We shouldn't be giving the anti's ammo to shut us down, and that's what these morons are doing. On the other side, there are plenty of gun owners that don't understand the law. I had a guy at a gunshow ready to buy the 24" pre-ban upper that I have for sale. Then he tells me he can't buy it because his preban Colt doesn't have a bayonet lug, so he can't use an upper with a bayonet lug. I couldn't convince him of the truth, so the deal fell through. But at least that guy was just overly paranoid, not a crook.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 12:44:03 PM EDT
I was just at a gun show yesterday, and of course there were the obligatory post ban lowers with preban uppers for sale. Personally, I could care less what people want to do with their rifles. But selling somebody a rifle that they could be arrested for possesing is morally wrong to say the least. It's happened to me, so I know how it feels to get swindled. I bought mine at a gunshow, and didn't even know the guys name. Luckily I was smart enough to do my homework and tracked the guy down and got my money back. But I bet alot of other people aren't so lucky. Actually I'm suprised how many people get away with selling these rifles at gun shows. It's as if the ATF isn't really that concerned about it. Does anybody actually know anybody who's been arrested for this? It seems that if the ATF was that worried about it, these people would be sitting ducks. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad they're not making these arrests. I just think it's fucked up when a dealer misprepresents what he's selling, putting the buyer in legal jeapordy.
Link Posted: 11/4/2001 11:48:21 PM EDT
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