SBS question > General Discussion

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:16:35 AM EDT

We have a mouse on the loose at work and it caused a question to pop into my mind.

Why isn't it consitered a short-barreled shotgun by the ATF when these:

are shot from one of these:

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:18:03 AM EDT

[#1]

rifling FTW

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:19:44 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
rifling FTW

Yep, has to be a smoothbore to be a shotgun.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:20:17 AM EDT

[#3]

Do you see a stock on that pistol?

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:25:16 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:29:35 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

um, NO!

that would be making something diferrent. (an SBS)

if remington offered a 12G rifled pistol, it would probably be a no go, since the rounds are over .50 cal (not sure on this)

I know taurus makes a rifled pistol in 45LC and 410 shotshells. called the judge.

bottom line, before doing anything silly, consult 3 people: a lawyer, the ATF, and arfcom.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:30:05 AM EDT

[#6]

Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44

§ 921. Definitions

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:30:12 AM EDT

[#7]

Your question + your avatar + the answer to your question = delicious irony.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:31:01 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

I think you are being sarcastic....

So why isnt a rem870 with a rifled bbl considered a rifle?

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:31:58 AM EDT

[#9]

To be a SBS, it first has to be a shotgun. The definition of a shotgun requires that it is designed to be fired from the shoulder, so that pistol, as designed, is not a shotgun.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:40:50 AM EDT

[#10]

You know, this

(6) The term “short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

brings up an interesting question...

Let's say I've got an O/U and I decide to cut one of the barrels down to 12 inches. Is it a SBS? It seems the intent of the law is to prevent a smoothbore with a barrel length less than 18", to hinder concealability. But in my example, the gun, as a whole, is still just as unconcealable as if it had never been cut.

Another (and more interesting) example would be a drilling-type firearm with the 16" barrels for both the rifle part and the shotgun part. The 16" rifle part would be legal, and as one could reasonable argue that it's really just a modified rifle and not a modified shotgun and therefore (6) above would not apply.

Thoughts?

(and I've been looking at contracts all morning, so my mind is in the mood for legal calisthenics)

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:43:14 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

I think you are being sarcastic....

So why isnt a rem870 with a rifled bbl considered a rifle?

I'd say, that in a court, an 870 with a rifled barrel is NOT a shotgun, but a rifle. And therefore, an 870, with a rifled barrel, could be 16" and be legal.

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:43:33 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
To be a SBS, it first has to be a shotgun. The definition of a shotgun requires that it is designed to be fired from the shoulder, so that pistol, as designed, is not a shotgun.

So why was the Ithaca auto burglar forced into extinction by the NFA? Has the code changed to make a short barreled SxS with a pistol grip something that wouldn't require a tax stamp>

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:51:49 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

I think you are being sarcastic....

So why isnt a rem870 with a rifled bbl considered a rifle?

I'd say, that in a court, an 870 with a rifled barrel is NOT a shotgun, but a rifle. And therefore, an 870, with a rifled barrel, could be 16" and be legal.

That how I think.....so who wants to be the test case?

Posted: 12/3/2007 8:56:53 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

So why isnt a rem870 with a rifled bbl considered a rifle?

seems to fit the definition of rifle

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

ETA:, but if its a rifle, then it becomes a DD because of the bore over 0.5 inches

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:03:23 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

So why was the Ithaca auto burglar forced into extinction by the NFA? Has the code changed to make a short barreled SxS with a pistol grip something that wouldn't require a tax stamp>

I dont know anything about that gun, but it sounds like a DD. It's not a shotgun because it wasnt intended to be fired from the shoulder.

(4) The term “destructive device” means—

(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and

(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

AOW definition

(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:21:49 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
rifling FTW

So you could cut down a rifle-barreled 870 without a stamp?
cool

Thanks for the quick answer.

um, NO!

that would be making something diferrent. (an SBS)

Yeah.
I'm fishing for more info.

ETA: ^ ok, so it sounds like a short, rifle-barreled shotgun would be an AOW.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:36:34 AM EDT

[#17]

I feel dumb now. I was assuming that by firing a shotshell, the pistol would be an automatic (multiple projectiles with a single trigger pull, or something to that effect). The real wording is "ONE ROUND PER TRIGGER PULL," so I don't think there is an issue.

Posted: 12/3/2007 9:38:55 AM EDT

[#18]

Dang, I figured it was going to be about the Secret Boat Service.

Those guys rock, btw.

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