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Posted: 10/24/2001 11:06:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 11:02:08 AM EDT by fattym4]
it dawned on me last night, while watching the idiot box, that we will [i]never[/i] win popular support for the RKBA as long as all political candidates who are pro-gun are also anti abortion. it is spelled out for you in the TV ads for the NJ governor's race. the Democrapper is anti gun, and is proud to have "stood up to the gun lobby" and he "voted FOR the assault rifle ban". the Rebublicrat will legalize CCW, but outlaw abortion "even in cases of rape and incest". now without discussing the merits and pitfalls of abortion (garandman, i'm looking in your direction! [;)]) why can't any politician separate the two issues? in other words, does one [b][i]HAVE[/i][/b] to be anti-abortion to be pro-gun? was there a class i missed in school or something? it just seems like we could garner much more support for our collective cause (you know, from the womenz) if we could get a few more, i don't know how to phrase it..."free thinkers" to run for office???
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:15:49 AM EDT
My former state Senator here in MA was considered a conservative Democrat. He was vehemently pro-gun, but liberal on most other issues. There are some who won't be pigeon-holed.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:24:14 AM EDT
so, they [i]DO[/i] exist huh? well, not in the PRNJ! i can guarantee that the Jersey race is already over. too bad...[V]
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:28:17 AM EDT
Unforunately for my district, but fortunately for the state, he is now Secretery of the Environment, which coincidentally is another pro-gun area. Now we've got the classic left wing female anti. I have met her face to face to discuss issues. She's does at least listen wihtout spouting rhetoric, but her voting record won't change.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:35:04 AM EDT
I am both pro gun and pro choice! Most of the women I know vote democratic even though they agree on more issues with the republican candidate. They just disagree on one major one (abortion). That alone sends them to the democrats. The republican party has lost many'o election because of this tendancy.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 11:50:32 AM EDT
Hello, I was just about to make a first post, but then I saw this thread. I am also pro choice and pro gun also and I also feel that abortion has cost many pro gunners an election. I don't see this as a Republican or Democrat issue however. Having whatever views you want is what make this the greatest country in the world. Alot of politicians forget this.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 12:07:04 PM EDT
welcome Treehugger! way to dive right into some controversy! bravo! i'm glad i'm not alone in this realization, we need to get more "pliable" folks into office if'n you ask me...
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 12:13:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4: it dawned on me last night, while watching the idiot box, that we will [i]never[/i] win popular support for the RKBA as long as all political candidates who are pro-gun are also anti abortion. it is spelled out for you in the TV ads for the NJ governor's race. the Democrapper is anti gun, and is proud to have "stood up to the gun lobby" and he "voted FOR the assault rifle ban". the Rebublicrat will legalize CCW, but outlaw abortion "even in cases of rape and incest". now without discussing the merits and pitfalls of abortion (garandman, i'm looking in your direction! [;)]) why can't any politician separate the two issues? in other words, does one [b][i]HAVE[/i][/b] to be anti-abortion to be pro-gun? was there a class i missed in school or something? it just seems like we could garner much more support for our collective cause (you know, from the womenz) if we could get a few more, i don't know how to phrase it..."free thinkers" to run for office???
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Maybe it has to do with the fact gun owners generally do not want to kill babies and liberal whiners who don't want you to protect yourself generally have no problem with doctors injecting unborn babies with lethal chemicals or ripping their limbs off one by one or cracking their skull and sucking their brains out.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 12:13:38 PM EDT
I also extend a warm welcome to 308TreeHugger, and wish to weigh in as another pro-gun, pro-choice person. I used to refuse to vote for any candidate who was either vehemently anti-abortion rights or anti-gun rights. However, my attitude has shifted. I see no imminent danger of women and couples being deprived of the choice to abort a pregnancy. OTOH there is great danger of losing the RKBA. It's being eroded slowly but surely. Now I largely ignore candidates' positions on abortion. I have become nearly a single-issue voter. The issue is freedom, and these are the freedoms I value most: - Owning property, including and especially firearms, - Speech, and - Privacy.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 12:15:50 PM EDT
Usually people who are pro-gun and pro-choice are vehmently attacked by the right wingers just as pro-life people are attacked by the left. I am pro-gun and pro-life. I just don't like to argue with our resident extreme right wingers. There are more centrists than either side would like to believe. The democrats only lost the last Presidential election due to their PARTY policy on guns. The republicans did NOT win the election on their pro-life policy. I am glad of the outcome, and did vote republiccan, but I do support pro-choice candidates as well.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 2:24:43 PM EDT
I am mystified when I see how many woman just want to preserve the right to kill their fetuses, at any cost. I think Hitler himself would get their vote, if he promised State funding for abortions. Why is it that females of every other species will risk their lives to save their young, yet the human female will risk their lives to terminate their young? I'm not anti-abortion in all cases, but with 1.6 Million or so per year, I think it's obvious that a lot of people out there view abortion as just another form of birth control. That is indefensible.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 2:47:46 PM EDT
As for abortion I'm with the Libertarians - it's none of the governments F'in business (hmm... just like guns). As for politicians, NJ's own Christie Todd Whitman was a Republican who was pro choice - that's the reason she didn't get the Health and Welfare (or whatever its called) position, and got the EPA instead! She wouldn't tow the party line. Politicians need the support of their party to gain big office. -LevelHead-
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 2:51:22 PM EDT
You hit the nail on the head. I know of few friends wives that are pro abortion first and pro gun second. They will never vote for a person who is anti abortion. And they are pro gun. Here in California abortion is one of the biggest issues. You must be pro to win. This sure hurts the Republicans.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:16:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2001 3:10:23 PM EDT by ARlady]
Originally Posted By LevelHead: As for abortion I'm with the Libertarians - it's none of the governments F'in business (hmm... just like guns).
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i used to get so irked at politicians espousing pro-life platforms. and i'd have to say that at those times, i was leaning towards pro-choice. but as i aged and matured, i've come to realize that my backlash against pro-life politicians was not support for abortion, but rather opposition to their taking a stand on an issue which is abso-smackin'-lutely none of their busines. i concur, levelhead. as it stands, i am pro-republic (bill of rights, constitution, etc.) first and foremost. i look at these issues when voting. do i think abortion is a woman's right? yeah. do i think she should be doing it? no. are there instances where abortion might be (and i hate using this word, but can't think of a better one) acceptable? possibly. is it any of the government's damn business? hardly. in my mind, abortion is a moral issue, or even a religious one for some. the government has no jurisdiction over these facets of a citizen's life. therefore, there shouldn't even be a pro-life/pro-choice (pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion) issue for the policians. not to mention that the government has yet to solve any problem its tackled. why would we think that its solutions to abortion would be any different?
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:22:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:33:31 PM EDT
I'm a libertarian. Free speech and property rights (right to posess weapons, encryption, or any thing else) are my two most important issues, with search/seizure coming in a close third. Honestly, abortion is an issue that I really don't care about. I'm pro-apathy. [s](Not to mention the [b]anti-abortion protestors[/b] that always picket right around noon so I can see a nice, big picture of a [b]dismembered fetus[/b] as I head out to get lunch [b]make me want to vote pro choice[/b] just out of spite...God, I hate those people.)[/s] AR
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:43:56 PM EDT
Well, I too am pro-gun and pro-choice. Unfortunately, after this election, I will have no choice about not having my guns... I firmly believe that if McGreevey (the democrat who is insanely anti unlike any I can remember) wins, we will see guns all but disappear from this state. And, according to the polls, he has a double digit lead over Schundler (the good guy)[:(]
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:53:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJunkie: Well, I too am pro-gun and pro-choice. Unfortunately, after this election, I will have no choice about not having my guns... I firmly believe that if McGreevey (the democrat who is insanely anti unlike any I can remember) wins, we will see guns all but disappear from this state. And, according to the polls, he has a double digit lead over Schundler (the good guy)[:(]
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this is what i'm talking about! regardless of anyone's position on the big "a", this is what is killing Schundler's election, he's not the first, he won't be the last. the answer is staring us all in the face.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 3:58:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4: it dawned on me last night, while watching the idiot box, that we will [i]never[/i] win popular support for the RKBA as long as all political candidates who are pro-gun are also anti abortion. it is spelled out for you in the TV ads for the NJ governor's race. the Democrapper is anti gun, and is proud to have "stood up to the gun lobby" and he "voted FOR the assault rifle ban". the Rebublicrat will legalize CCW, but outlaw abortion "even in cases of rape and incest". now without discussing the merits and pitfalls of abortion (garandman, i'm looking in your direction! [;)]) why can't any politician separate the two issues? in other words, does one [b][i]HAVE[/i][/b] to be anti-abortion to be pro-gun? was there a class i missed in school or something? it just seems like we could garner much more support for our collective cause (you know, from the womenz) if we could get a few more, i don't know how to phrase it..."free thinkers" to run for office???
View Quote
I am a guy who is probably farther to the right on the political spectrum than anyone here. I don't want to start an abortion talk here but abortion is the one subject that I really never gave a damn about one way or the other. And to this day I cannot understand fellow right wingers who vote SOLELY on a candidate's position on abortion. It really pisses me off when a good conservative candidate gets ripped because he is either pro-choice or doesn't care one way or the other. Many conservatives have been defeated on this issue when 99 percent of the other issues they stood for were very conservative in nature. And that is the only subject I feel that way about. Don't know why.
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 5:27:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Malpaso: My former state Senator here in MA was considered a conservative Democrat. He was vehemently pro-gun, but liberal on most other issues. There are some who won't be pigeon-holed.
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It happens in Southern states also
Link Posted: 10/24/2001 5:43:28 PM EDT
Not only is abortion none of the government's business, it is also not the business of anyone but those directly involved. I asked someone if they insisted that a 15 year old drop out of school and had the baby (thus starting a new cycle of welfare), would he be willing to insure that the child was raised properly and get a good education, his response was that those things were not his concern and not his business. Unless someone is willing to make that part his business, then the entire matter is not his business. It's just like the anti-gunners, it's all about being able to tell someone how to run their life. We all want our Second Amendment rights insured, but some don't seem to be as concerned about the rights of others to live their lives without interference from others. If you are against abortion, don't allow it in your personal sphere of influence, but don't blow up at others who don't feel the same way and don't try to control other people's actions the way the anti-gunners try to do to us.
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