[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/633205.asp[/url]

A Turkish citizen who boarded a plane to Iran was arrested Tuesday in Frankfurt, Germany, after authorities found instructions for an Islamic holy war, a protective suit against biological and chemical warfare and material for detonators in his luggage.

Also, I saw in an earlier news report, back when the antrax thing was first starting, maybe even a bit before, that one of the people who saw one of the terrorists in FL (forget his name) said it looked like he had a skin rash, maybe he got infected himself.

I'm just hoping that the trail goes through bin Laden and all the way to Hussein. That would make my year (after we bomb the snot out of both of them, of course).

The story was from a Pharmacist in Florida that actually had contact with Mohammed Atta before the 9-11 Attacks. Atta came into his Pharmacy with some kind of skin infection on his palms. He was examined by this Pharmacist and got some topical anti-biotics for it.

I'm guessing Atta was screwing around with improvised explosives or chemical weapons rather than bio. Many explosives require acids, which could cause skin irritation.

If he was that careless with anthrax, he'd have probably been dead.

I can't see the hijackers themselves creating the anthrax. It would have violated cell security to have two operations run by the same people. And I think they had their hands full learning how to fly, let alone running a bio lab. It's possible they smuggled in the anthrax from Europe and distributed it once they got here.

I'm still wondering when some arabic guy in Trenton is going to kick the bucket with a mysterious lung infection. What precautions did they take filling envelopes for mailing?

The Pharmacist also said he didn’t think it was anthrax because there were no blisters, just chemical burns.

See! it was not the Jews.
(for you who think that)

Although this Turkish guy might very well be connected to bin Laden, I should point out that this news story about the "conclusive proof" makes no mention of either OBL or anthrax.

One of the sites mentioned that he had a “training and recruitment” video for a terrorist org (Al Queda?). Rumsfeld went public today with the fact that the Ts that did 9/11 were based in Hamburg. Gephart and others have stated that the ‘material’ is weapons grade and seriously refined (specifically mentioning Iraq as a suspect)

Atta met with the Iraq version of the CIA in Hamburg.

FUCK what do you want a signed confession??

Who ever claimed it was the "Jews"?????!!

DaMan

There have been some who insinuated such and some others who insinuate that our own government did it.  Some have also suggested that the "Jews" or our government were also behind the 9/11 attacks.

SO, Larry do YOU think the Anthrax was from Israel?????  I don't!  Think it was DOMESTIC!

DaMan

OK,
So we’ve got
a) An Al Queda guy running around with a CBW suit.
b) Letters mailed from towns that were known hangouts for cool and the gang.
c) An Al Queda guy attempting to test fly a crop duster (delivery system for something)
d) Attacks on media outlets that ran serious anti-usama rhetoric the week before the letters are mailed
----- The Sun ran a cover of Usama with horns and red reticle center over his nose
e) Known meetings between Al Queda and Iraq
----- Iraq being the only nation known to have used anthrax.
----- Iraq being a country that has known ties to several terrorists groups
----- Iraq having made tons of threats of ‘vengeance’ and ‘terror’ regarding the US
f) Post 9/11credit card usage in and around the area where the letters were mailed
g) Several of the most credible arrests being made just miles from where the letters were mailed
h) Manuals on biowar in the apartment of one of the men arrested.


Damn I can see how the source MUST be domestic. 2+2 = 5

[whacko]

If it was weapons grade a lot more than 3 people would be dead. Since only 3 people have died of anthrax so far...(you draw the obvious conclusion.)

Everything I've seen so far pinpoints the strain as a garden-variety agricultural animal strain created in Iowa back in the 50s or 60s.

Erm yea.
Some biker whipped it up in his bathtub.

Consider for a moment:
Some extremely well funded nations have been unable to develop weapons grade stuff. It took Iraq like five years to do it with some success. Korea has been working on it for decades.

Short of some report about it being the Aimes (sp) strain. (A report that was later retracted I might add) What evidence do you have to support your SUPER DUPER genius bathtub biker lab theory?

[url]http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/32458.htm[/url]


Hmmm may not be Iraq after all.

Gee, we don't know if the three letters are related.

Uh, I think all three have the same stamp.

[url]http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/102301.htm[/url]

[img]http://www.cnn.com/interactive/health/0110/anthrax.letters/pop.anthrax.written.letters.jpg[/img]

So today we’ve got
a) An Al Queda guy running around with a CBW suit.
b) Letters mailed from towns that were known hangouts for cool and the gang.
c) An Al Queda guy attempting to test fly a crop duster (delivery system for something)
d) Attacks on media outlets that ran serious anti-usama rhetoric the week before the letters are mailed
----- The Sun ran a cover of Usama with horns and red reticle center over his nose
e) Known meetings between Al Queda and Iraq
----- Iraq being the only nation known to have used anthrax.
----- Iraq being a country that has known ties to several terrorists groups
----- Iraq having made tons of threats of ‘vengeance’ and ‘terror’ regarding the US
f) Post 9/11credit card usage in and around the area where the letters were mailed
g) Several of the most credible arrests being made just miles from where the letters were mailed
h) Manuals on biowar in the apartment of one of the men arrested.
i) Usama buying anthrax from labs

Those "Stamps" are the same .. because they are part of the "Pre-Stamped" envelopes that are available at your local neighbourhood Post Office...

Ted...

If the standard is "[b]conclusive proof[/b]" (your phrase, not mine), then yes, I do want something like that.  And we might get it if the "right" interrogation techniques are applied to some of the suspects in custody.  

What we have now is a large collection of circumstantial evidence that strongly suggests that bin Laden directed the anthrax mailings.


When and where has Iraq used anthrax?

 

Circumstantial evidence is all you get with people like this. They don’t leave witnesses and they don’t leave prints and I’m damn sure they didn’t lick the envelope shut.

As to when and where they used anthrax – Kurds 1990 and Iran in (I think) 1989. It didn't work all that well.

Not to sound like a broken record, but if they want "Death to Israel," why didn't they send at least one letter to some random place there?

Also, why would terrorists tell their victims on how to cure their infection?  Seems like if they wanted it to spread, they wouldn't tip off the reader that there is a problem.

[img]http://www.cnn.com/interactive/health/0110/anthrax.letters/pop.anthrax.written.letters.jpg [/img]

Suppose for a moment that you have 500~1000 gr. of anthrax you brought into the country disguised as makeup or whatever. It’s really not enough to cause mass casualties, even with ideal delivery.

Terrorists delude themselves into thinking that the whole reason for the attack is to draw attention to their cause. So they attack the top (10) few with small amounts to maximize the impact.

As far as the “You take penicillin now” and the "We have this anthrax." lines.Why does the IRA call in bomb threats with the precise location and time? It’s this sick psychological game that all the real baddies play.

[b]“Look!!! I could have killed you but I warned you instead.”[/b]

It’s supposed to demonstrate that they are merciful.

I never said or implied that. I said the strain used in the attacks was developed (isolated, really) in Iowa during the 1950s.

Consider for a moment:

"Some report?" EVERY report that I've seen so far has named the strain being used as the Ames strain. Perhaps you can come up with evidence to support your idea? My evidence is plain as can be - weapons-grade anthrax would have killed many more people than the 3 that are dead now. Since only 3 people been killed, it obviously isn't weapons-grade anthrax we're being hit with - or else bioweapons are nowhere near as effective as was previously thought. Anthrax is considered to be "weapons-grade" when it meets the following criteria:

1) Is especially virulent (Ames strain is very virulent. In fact, it's so virulent that if a vaccine protects against the Ames strain, it's said to protect against all strains.)

2) Is of the proper size. Spore particles larger than 5 microns will get caught in cilia and never reach the lungs in sufficient quantities to infect, and particles smaller than 1 micron will be exhaled (obviously, inhalation is the method of transmission for a bioweapon.)

3) Is, or can be, released in sufficient quantities to infect large numbers of people. A means of delivery that can only infect people who come into direct physical contact with it (i.e., letters and packages) isn't a very good way to spread a biowar agent. A large quantity of properly-sized particles have to be put into the air where as many people as possible will inhale them.


Ames strain is mentioned as being the strain used in the latest attacks at:

[url]http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/anthrax_sponsor011016.html[/url]

[url]http://www.thenewrepublic.com/express/orent101701.html[/url] (page states that Ames is the strain being used, but I still disagree with the reporting of it being "weapons grade.")


This site says that Iraq purchased anthrax in the hopes of using it as a bioweapon, but never did.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1604000/1604621.stm[/url]



PS: A CBW suit and mask won't protect you from biological agents, since they're too small for the filters to remove. Any NBC NCO or officer could tell you that. Keeping your immunizations up to date and practicing good personal hygiene are the best ways to keep from becoming a casualty (besides not being where the germs are.)

And do you REALLY think that Usama would care what some checkout-line rag says about him? He has this master plan to infect a large percentage of the US population with anthrax, but a headline in the Sun made him put that plan on hold and focus on a couple tabloids, Tom Brokaw, Tom Daschle, the DC post office, and Gov. Pataki instead.

I think OBL will use a lot more effective and attention-getting method when he acts next don't get too freaked out about the anthrax deal and forget to pay attn to something else.

Someone should tell that to the testing & decom teams who suit up before responding to possible anthrax releases.

Actually weaponized anthrax is treated with several compounds. Both to make the spores more moisture resistant and keep the individual spores from binding to each other.  That’s why you get the greasy stain at the bottom of the envelope.It’s also a dead giveaway as to whodoneit (and yes a mass spectrometer takes about five minutes)

The government already knows who cooked the shit up. We will get a little more info every day ... Should I explane why?

Side note: The head of the Biowar lab in MD said that the process of ‘fermenting’ large amounts of the stuff, basically guaranteed enough genetic variation that the originating variant would be impossible to determine. Ames is available from labs all over the world so even if it is Ames, it still proves jack squat.

What IS the key issue here?? Even expert biochemists with all the funding in the world are not going to be able to pull biowar anthrax out of their ass. It takes time, money and expertise. All the evidence collected thus far points at a well motivated, well funded, concerted effort, that took years. That’s not something that a domestic group is going to be able to slip under the radar.

I’ll keep posting the info as I get it.

That’s total BS. Anthrax spores are 5 – 10 microns in size. It's a bacteria not a virus.
Standard industrial dust filters will catch anthrax.

Dude is just flappin his lips.

\*edit*\ Gotta stop posting when I'm smashed.

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47864-2001Oct24.html[/url]

Note the spore size of 1 ½ - 3 microns!!
Which is smaller than W.H.O. said was possible??

But still large enough to be caught by a garden-variety industrial HEPA filter.

What I’m wondering is.. HTF do you reduce the spore size without genetic engineering?

quote from no_reflex


----- Iraq being the only nation known to have used anthrax.
----- Iraq being a country that has known ties to several terrorists groups
----- Iraq having made tons of threats of ‘vengeance’ and ‘terror’ regarding the US

I' agree with No_Reflex , but FYI:

-Iraq is not the only nation know to have used anthrax--Russia was mass-producing it for years during the cold war; there is even confirmed cases of accidental releases of it in the '80's

--Iraq is one of tens of countries know to have ties with terrorist groups, as well as one of score of 'vengeance' and 'terror'.

I share many of your view on Iraq needs to be dealt with "the right way also", but not to think that there won't be some more operations closer to home with terrorist activities, i.e. Phillipines, would be a mistake.  There are alot of countries that harbor these pieces of shit, inadvertly or not.

"Keep prayin for the military troops, Lord knows we need every prayer we can get"
[USA]
                 

Production and use are two different things.  E.g., the Soviet Union produced thousands of nuclear warheads but never used any of them (except for testing).

Who remembers the whack job in the UK saying he could tell all kinds of shit about the author of the anthrax letters?(With less than 15 lines of block text)


turns out he WAS on crack
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/life/2001-10-22-penmanship.htm[/url]

Got this in e-mail today - sorry about the text but there wasn't a link in the message. In short it's about 3 biowar scientists who say the gov't claim of the anthrax strain being garden-variety is nonsense.

NYTimes

Contradicting Some U.S. Officials, 3 Scientists Call Anthrax Powder High-Grade

By WILLIAM J. BROAD

cientists in and out of government said yesterday that the anthrax strike on Capitol Hill involved an advanced, highly refined powder that is quite dangerous and not the primitive form of the germ that some federal officials have recently described.

Three top scientists - all with experience in germ weapons and knowledge of the federal investigation - said in interviews yesterday that the powder was high-grade and in theory capable of inflicting wide casualties.

And, two of the scientists said, the anthrax was altered from its natural state to reduce its electrostatic charge, a process that prevents small particles from sticking together and to nearby objects, thus making them more likely to become airborne.

The experts noted that turning anthrax into a weapon of mass destruction still required added steps, like making the powder in quantity and learning how to disseminate it effectively. One expert said that only the United States, the Soviet Union and Iraq were known to have developed the necessary technique. But the experts said some officials were playing down the powder's potency out of ignorance or an impulse to reassure a frightened public.

Federal officials and weapons experts have given varying descriptions of the powder in the 10 days since an aide to Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota, the majority leader, opened a letter containing the anthrax.

(cont)

Some federal officials have said the germs were an unrefined preparation of microbes, while others have warned that they were potent and easily turned into a cloud that could infect many people. Anthrax spores in the powder contaminated at least 28 people in Senate offices.

None of these people have become sick, but federal investigators said the Daschle letter may have leaked anthrax in transit from New Jersey and infected postal workers there and in Washington. Two Washington postal workers have died of anthrax.

William C. Patrick III, a microbiologist who designed germ weapons for the United States before President Richard M. Nixon renounced them in 1969, said he had learned details of the federal inquiry from a senior investigator. The Senate powder, Mr. Patrick said, was quite potent and capable of sailing far through the air to hurt many people.

He said the makers of the anthrax spores sent to Mr. Daschle's office had produced a dry powder that was remarkably free of extraneous material.

"It's high-grade," said Mr. Patrick, who consults widely on making germ defenses. "It's free flowing. It's electrostatic free. And it's in high concentration."

Experts on germ weaponry agree that the removal of electrostatic charges is a major step toward making an effective munition. The Soviet Union and United States developed sophisticated ways of diminishing this attraction and helping the particles float more freely, increasing their ease of dissemination and likelihood of inhalation.

Mr. Patrick said that whoever sent the Daschle letter had clearly achieved this step. "It's fluffy," he said, quoting experts who examined the powder. "It appears to have an additive that keeps the spores from clumping." Removing the charge, he added, is a black art, few details of which are known publicly.

Assertions by some federal officials that the material was not the type that would be used in weapons are "nonsense," he said. "The only difference between this and weapons grade is the size of the production. You can produce a very good grade of anthrax powder in the lab. The issue is whether those efforts can be expanded in scale, so you can make large quantities."

Richard Spertzel, a microbiologist and former head of biological inspection teams in Iraq for the United Nations, said he, too, had talked to federal investigators about the Senate powder.

"There's no question this is weapons quality," Dr. Spertzel said. "It has all the characteristics - fine particles and readily dispersible." Particles must be small to penetrate deep into human lungs, where they can start a lethal infection.

Al Zelicoff, a physician and expert on biological weapons at the Sandia National Laboratory in Albuquerque, who is developing a computerized system to allow epidemiologists to track suspicious disease outbreaks, said his conversations with federal investigators had alarmed him.

"These people know what they're doing," Dr. Zelicoff said of the anthrax terrorists. "I'm truly worried. They have the keys to the kingdom."

He cautioned, however, that the federal investigation was continuing and had produced results that were preliminary, with no firm conclusions.

"But if they have indeed perfected the aerosolization process," Dr. Zelicoff said of the terrorists, "it's strongly suggested they can do large-scale dissemination when they wish."