[ARCHIVED THREAD] - .22 LR Lethality (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/14/2007 5:35:57 PM EDT
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We all know that a .22 can be very lethal at CQB distances, but how do you think a .22 would do in a SHTF scenarion out of a rifle? Of course it would not fair for long-range shots, but say distances of 50 to 100 yards out of a scoped semi-automatic rifle? With ammo prices going through the roof I think the .22 will become increasingly popular...so lemme know what you think about it... |
It's an old myth. The physics of it are impossible. .22lr does not bounce around inside bodies, does not bounce around inside skulls, does not cause massive internal injury, etc. |
| It is better than a pointy stick and certainly is lethal. It is not a one shot fight stopper, but I'd venture 5 or more hits in quick succesion will not leave much fight in an attacker. For a survival weapon, it has the distinct advantage of being available everywhere and to be blunt, I really don't know of anyone who would volunteer to get shot with one. |
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I would not shoot for the neck. With a 22lr a shot to the eye would be preferred if using a scope for a offensive ambush shot. If you are using it as a defensive weapon you better practice high stress accuracy. I LOVE my 22's, I enjoy a 22LR pretty much more than any other round but I do know it's limitations. They can be used to kill and they can kill very effectively but a fight stopper they most likely are not. |
What he said. It MIGHT ricochet off a bone once, but there's no way it will penetrate a skull (a dubious feat for a .22 lr) and begin bouncing like a pinball. Just like it MIGHT enter the chest cavity between a rib and lodge in the heart, causing a cardiovascular shutdown or some sort. Of course, it's not something I would ever rely on to stop a fight. Alot of people need to get it into their skulls that a defensive shoot is to STOP A THREAT IMMEDIATELY , not merely kill them. I can stab you in the chest, and you'll die after you bleed out 5 minutes later. Just long enough to bash my head in with a monkey wrench. You dig? |
Those look awsome! What are they,and where can I get one? 
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My parents used the lowly .22 SHORT from a rifle to kill beef cattle in slaughtering process as they had no captive bolt guns on the farms...same thing for hogs too. Now you are going to tell me a .22 long rifle would not be a fight stopper in the hands of a good marksman? Hogwash I say... I hold in my hands a Remington Model 24 semi-auto rifle...a John Moses Browning (PBOH)design. And it was a Depression-era rifle, made in 1933, that my uncle purchased to harvest deer, a bit illegally, during that time. Venison was THE meat my mother grew up eating, MOST every month of the year...otherwise, deer would over-populate and destroy the crops. Speaking to my uncle befroe he died in 1984, he claimed to have taken about 250 deer with that rifle before he was drafted into the Army. And when he returned, he used that same rifle in his trapline, making more money than his wartime job grading gravel roads for the county (he was discharged before the end of WWII due to injury). So to close, yes, a .22 IS a lethal round IF you know how to use it. |
Wrong, it will bust a deer skull easily. It will go through a few 2x4's so I seriously doubt it has any trouble going through a human skull under 100yds. |
That info should be taken with a grain of salt based on the source. Dr. GK Roberts and Dr. Martin Fackler have debunked all of their "studies". That said, .22 can be usefull to hunt game for food during a "SHTF" scenario or even take someone out to get to a more effective weapon. All bullets are lethal, but some are much more suited to dropping two legged preditors than others. |
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Sure a .22 can be lethal with proper shot placement, but with all the caliber choices from 9mm to .45 that come in any package from a full size to a BUG gun, why would you choose a .22?  I could understand if that is all one had and could afford, but for everybody else who has tangible options, Why?? 
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| Shot placement would be key as has been stated. If you could hit somebody in the temple i bet it would be game over. Likewise if you hit them in the neck. It might not end it right then and there, but i dont know of many people who could still do much of anything with a hole in thier windpipe of cerauted(sp?) artery... |
I saw it OMG I have a different view of that round now 
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As a Firefighter EMT I have personally worked on 2 suicide attempts that the person used a 22lr. They both used revolver hand guns I do not know what models as I was a little busy with other things at the time. The first place the gun to his temple and pulled the trigger. He then slumped over his computer and was found by police shortly after they entered the room. One officer stated he could still smell the burnt gun power in the air when he entered the room. EMS arrived and placed him on the ground. He still had a hart bead but was not breathing. Only a little blood was evident on the right side of his head, the bullet did not exit. He was transported to the hospital and later died from the GSW. The second was a self inflected GSW to the upper right chest. The patient did this because he found out he had a terminal cancer. The patient went out into his yard and proceeds to shoot his pacemaker. His wife witnessed this and then called police. After a short standoff with police he surrenders and EMS takes him to the hospital. He had good vitals and never had a loss of consciousness and again very little blood was coming from the hole. Once again the bullet did not exit the body. The patient was taken to a local hospital and then life flighted to a trauma one hospital. This patient did live. |
Because I can drop a few thousand rounds into a backpack and resupply anywhere walmart exists. |
Gotta agree. 550rds @ $8 > 50rds @ $8 (more like $11, now). Honestly, these ammo prices have made .22LR go from looking like a 40-year-old rusting VW Bug into looking like a brand new Toyota or something. I mean, yeah sure, I'd love to have thousands upon thousands of rounds of M855... but there's no way I'd ever be able to afford it with the current prices. |
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It's an old myth. The physics of it are impossible. .22lr does not bounce around inside bodies, does not bounce around inside skulls, does not cause massive internal injury, etc. You sir are 100% wrong. It doesn't do anything out side the realm of physics but it will richochet inside of the skull and a rib or pelvis is quite capable of causing it to deviate in it's path. I know it to be true because nearly 15 years of critical care transports and ER service have proven it to me. I've seen it many times on x-rays. Like it or not the 22lr is plenty lethal and will easily penetrate the human skull with enough energy to ricochet of the inside without exiting. You can tell it's bounced of the interior surface by the nice spray of tiny bone chips that usually accompany it. Other than the head it's much less likely but trauma surgeons have explained to me that 22's and even larger calibers can be deflected and deviate of dense soft tissue structures such as the liver. |
Yeah, but I could do the same with my 9 Milli.  And with proper shot placement, even plain ole' Winny 9mm 115 gr. FMJ Wally world value packs will have better terminal ballistics to boot. |
FirearmsTactical.com has some interesting articles in which Dr. Fackler and his colleagues tear apart and discredit the Marshall & Sanow books. A review of Handgun Stopping Power A review of Street Stoppers "Sanow Strikes Out Again" Discrepancies in the Marshall & Sanow database Undeniable Evidence Flaws in Marshall & Sanow Data |
I think you might be a bit surprised at how thin some areas of the human skull are. Shining a light in one reveals the temporal area almost translucent...  ... |
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Fully 20% of my extensive firearms collection is made up of .22LR (though some are admittedly multi-caliber items). Do I CCW one? Nope. Would I choose one first/foremost as a go-to gun for any "serious" situations? Nope. But do I have some that would fit those roles if need be? Of course. Could I protect life/limb/home/hearth with them if I had to. Probably...
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neither is a 9mm or a 45 or even a 44 mag. no standard handgun round is in reality a fight stopper. that comes from a longtime of treating GSW victims. modern medicine, combined with the reality of GSW has proven time and again that nothing other than a good shotgun blast or highpowered rifle round is a crushing lethal wound. i've worked on numerous people that were shot with "solid" handgun rounds, center mass that were talking and alert when we were working on them. even the publishing of medical papers state that you statistically will survive a handgun wound. i read one that had numbers reaching high 70's. i've worked on people dusted by LEO's with numerous high caliber holes in their torso who were doing pretty good on the table, especially with 5-9 holes in them. |
Don't read too much into that -- possums are quite stout and can be harder to kill than many realize. (Tough little buggers... )
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You guys are thinking wrong when you say it's not a fight stopper. You just need the right .22 Micro Mini gun from Halo. With apparently a ridiculously high rate of fire..... get cut in half with .22's and your fight is stopping right there and now! :) http://www.halomfg.com/forum.cfm (Under the GAU22e section) (For the humor impaired, while the gun is real, I am not actually considering it in light of the current argument.....but it makes for a funny mental image!) |
Yep -- and, as I said, a .22 isn't my first (or 2nd, or 3rd...) choice for anything serious, it just beats no gun at all. I was just pointing out (having had to kill a bunch of possums, armadillos, raccoons, etc. around the farm over the years) that possums are stout and harder to kill than some realize. And they take direct/blunt strikes better than many much-larger animals without blinking. I simply said not to read too much into it, and I'll stand by that as far as it goes. ETA: FWIW, I've seen a man DRT from 5 shots of .22LR from a 10/22, but I'm not going to extrapolate that out into an argument for .22LR for SD either. 
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that study exposes another weakness in this argument.. all of the .22 rounds listed averaged between 25% and 30% one stop kill.. now up at the top, select .223 or .308 or .45 or 9mm.. all average 90+% one stop kill. this is the real issue. for a defensive round, you cant RELY on the ability to take CALM PRECISE shots.. you need a round that gets the job done. .22 is a great hunting round, and an acceptable last tier defensive weapon, but will never be the go-to weapon unless all other ammo is gone. |
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IIRC the Chechen rebels used (still using?) 22 LR with great results in a limited role. The article I read (I will try to find it) said they liked to use it for urban sniping. The rifles and ammo is cheap, lightweight, and easy to conceal. As many here will tell you (because they are correct) shot placement is key. The rebel snipers would aim for vital areas not covered by body armor (neck, groin, armpits) A 22 would not be my 'got to' gun but its versatility does earn it a spot in any survival plan. Remember this; you are not just going to be going head to head with government thugs or zombies. In a long term survival situation the ability to take small to medium size game efficiently would be important. At 50 yards a 22 will kill a squirrel or rabbit just as easy as a .308 or .223, saving that ammo for the two legged threats. Just look at how the Yeager rifle evolved into the Pennsylvania Long Rifle. |