[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Tacti-fools (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/6/2007 6:28:02 AM EDT
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Okay, this starts getting a little lame. I was watching a news story about the bomb scares called into Wal-Marts around the country, where the guy demands money or he blows the place up. Fine, a good situation for cops to show up. Then they showed the response. There were tactical stacks of moronic idiots with ballistic shields creeping through the parking lot. There was a dipshit on the roof with an M4, on his shoulder, sweeping it around. What the fuck was he AIMING at? I'm sorry, but it was a bomb threat with no "tactical" situation at all. Call in the bomb squad by all means, but you don't need the damn swat guys swarming the area. There is NO valid argument here this was all done for "officer safety" or "public safety." If anything, all these bozos running around pointing guns is a hazard to everybody within rifle range.  I just don't get every situation turning into an event to pull all the toys out of the closet...am I missing something? Please no "you're not a LEO, you don't understand" comments, I was a LEO for several years and I *do* understand. |
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You dont remember much about Eric Robert Rudolph do you? A bomb threat does not mean there is a bomb. Rudolph was specifically targeting first responders with secondary devices near their staging points. Rooftop presence? Many bombs are remotely detonated, and often the bombers like to be nearby and watch, just like arsonists. Sounds like a good response to me. |
No, you really don't. You seem to hold the idea that the cops knew this was just a "bomb scare" BEFORE going and checking everything out thoroughly. You seem to hold the idea that they can just take the information they get from a 911 call at face value and proceed as if it is the absolute truth. You seem to hold the idea that police have a mystical ability to know what they will face when responding to something like a bomb threat and thus don't need to take every reasonable precaution in dealing with the situation. In other words, you seem to hold a lot of ideas that are common among folks who have never been charged with responding to that sort of a situation. Emergency responders will often roll with more equipment and personnel than a particular situation calls for because in the early stages of responding to the emergency you don't know exactly what you are dealing with....thus you go prepared to deal with whatever you *COULD* face, not neccessarily just what you *WILL* face. |
unless of course the bomb threat was a ruse to pick off the responders. If I were going in to check for a potential bomb, i would want all the folks possible watching the backdoor |
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You guys come up with a good reason why Joe Tacticool was on the roof pointing his rifle around, and I'll shut up. But there is no good reason, so I will continue to say this response was overboard. And yes, the call came into 911 as a bomb threat. They knew that's what it was when they arrived (unless it was a ruse). Schools get bomb threats dozens of times a year from kids who don't want to attend. The response to those is not this overboard. If you are going to go apeshit over a bomb threat thinking you are going to get picked off, I would think you should go apeshit EVERY time. I'm not Monday QBing, I'm pointing out silliness. |
You do know that designated marksmen serve primarily as gatherers of information, right? And that they do this through a scoped weapon, right?
BZZZZZZT. Wrong answer. They knew they were CALLED with a bomb threat...they did NOT know exactly what the situation was until they checked it out. Again, it is a mindset issue. You aren't thinking like someone who is charged with responding to an emergency situation like this.
They don't evac the school, cordon off the area, and send in dedicated tactical units and bomb units where you live? ....cause they do everywhere else.
Again, mindset. You don't seem to realize all the situations that a 911 call about a bomb can represent. |
Yep, your absolutely right. Unless there were more unknown issues for the cops to deal with than the original 911 caller had conveyed to the operator, then you'd be wrong. Remember the L.A. bank shoot-out, (like the movie Heat-but not the movie). Those cops responeded to a bank robbery, not a shootout in progress. If they responded the same way as this 'walmart bomb threat' the shootout wouldn't have been so bad. In fact, that is one of the contributing factors that got M4's in the trunks of many, many cruisers. In short, don't start an internet arguement about something you clearly have no idea about. ETA: this is such a stupid topic and idiotic post, I appologize to all of ARFCOM for even responding to it.  |
First off i am rating this most retarded thread of the day  second, "every situation" is not the same as "bomb THREAT". SWAT exists and is equipped specifically for high threat situations such as "BOMB THREAT"... they are handled as REAL until proven FALSE... had this read something like "SWAT TEAMS DEPLOYED FOR PARKING VIOLATIONS", i would agree... there is no need for riot gear and tear gas to issue a $20 parking ticket... but this was the threat of a BOMB... it only became a BOMB SCARE once the police successfully secured the area and found no signs of an explosive device... i find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that you were a LEO for several years... |
Maybe he was just holding it in a high(or more likely, low) ready position and scanning for any kind of unusual or threatening activity. ETA: What if the bomb threat was a ruse to lure a large number of people into the parking lot or to ambush some first responders? Every Monday morning quarterback in the country would be shouting "They knew there was a bomb threat, where was the fucking SWAT team?". When possible, your response to potential critical incidents should be proactive rather than reactive. |
Absolutely correct. Which is why this guy walking across the roof, sweeping is NON-SCOPED M4 around made no sense at all.
which is why I said "unless it's a ruse." Sure you have to check it out. What you DON'T have to do is pull out all the tactical BS. All those guys do if there really IS a bomb is provide more dead bodies. Secure the area with patrol units and call in the explosive experts.
I *have* responded to situations like this. It IS a mindset issue, and IMO they displayed the wrong mindset. |
You don't have to be an ass. Why are so many people acting like I personally insulted them? Half the posts on this board are people telling scenarios where they think things were sond the wrong way. This is another such post. I NEVER claimed to be "Super Man," nor did I claim to be an expert. What I can say for certain is that a bunch of tac teams running around pointing weapons when there are no targets to engage is NOT the right answer. |
Dude, I have five times as many posts on this board as you do. I am here asking questions and making posts a lot. Just because somebody doesn't agree with your opinion does not make them a liar. people who can't accept differing opinions have a lot of growing up to do. Sounds to me like you are the one out of recess at the moment. |
First off, 'Dude', post counts on internet websites have nothing to do with real world scenerios and operations. Please forgive my low post count though as apparently that is YOUR measuring stick for intelligence. I've been a little busy with Alibaba. But don't worry, I'm back now so my tactical intelligence (post counts) should start rising.  Your original post questioned the intelligence of the reponding officers of a bomb threat at a large scale retailer. You even went to the extreme of calling them 'Fools' for being prepared for any situation they may encounter, and then claimed to have real-world experience in such matters. So, the only conclusion that can be made is that you are telling the truth about you 'experience' as a former LEO, in which case you are obviously incompetent and thankfully off the street, OR you are a teen/early 20's internet warrior,and judging by the reponse regarding low post counts, I'd say your about 17. Differing opinions is purely acceptable, but when you call men fools, men who are potentially putting their lives on the line for the safety of others, men whose fraternaty you claim to have once belonged to, men who are doing their job correctly, Something just isn't right with that. That's all I got for you 'dude'. |
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Uh...ok. I never questioned anybody's intelligence. I questioned the appropriateness of their response. Though I'm starting to question your intelligence for not being able to make the distinction. I'm not sure why you take this personally, but enjoy yourself. You will stress yourself into an early grave this way. You know nothing about who I am, I think it's amusing that you bother to spend time making up scenarios about me as a teenager to make you feel good about yourself. I'm 40 years old, and served about four years in the city of Athens, Georgia Police Department. I have bachelor's and master's degrees from the University of Georgia. There are pics of me on this site if you care to search. I'm sorry, but law enforcement is NOT a fraternity, nor is it any other kind of exclusive club. It is a difficult, dangerous job that few people truly appreciate. It is high stress, with high rates of alcoholism, divorce, and suicide. HOWEVER, the same can be said of oil field workers, electrical line repairmen, firefighters, and a host of other difficult, dangerous jobs. If I came on here criticizing a member of one of those other professions, people would be saying "lol yeah what a dumba$$"...but because it's the sacred cow of law enforcement, somehow it's above criticism in this forum. You can buy into that if you like, I don't. Even when I was a LEO I never bought into the elitism that a lot of LEOs exhibit. The whole "I'm a LEO and therefore I'm better than you and I can do as I please" attitude does more to damage the credibility of LEOs in the community than anything else. It's a convenient excuse for bad behavior, and it's not the same thing as professional pride. I suspect you are either a LEO, or want to be one. Good for you. But don't get a chip on your shoulder about it -- realize that you better serve your profession by acknowledging that mistakes are made in every profession, instead of rabidly defending every action taken by every person in law enforcement. Regardless of the circumstances in this particular case, that kind of blanket defense will ultimately fail you, as LEOs are human beings and WILL do bad, foolish, or just plain stupid things from time to time. |
why was this necessary? if you disagree, say so, no need to go down there. |
While we are on the topic, let's get off the topic for a second: Anyone know why our local fire department sends out a full ladder truck in response to a heart attack call from a single floor house while simulataneously calling in a paramedic/ambulance? Heart attack victims spontaneously combusting? Jumping up & climbing trees maybe? Wonder how many gallons to the mile those ladder trucks get . . . 
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That's exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about...proportionality of response. |
Around here The Fire Trucks usually have 1 or more paramedic on them and can respond faster than the ambulance. Both are sometimes dispatched as you never know what to expect on a call. Each call is different and my safety comes first so I say send em all. Better safe than sorry.
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Four whole years huh. Wow that makes you an expert in law enforcement response. I wonder what your post would look like if they had sent a couple of officers who got themselves killed in an ambush....because dispatch ALWAYS has the correct information. |
What's your problem, Mr. Morden? Dressing up in your tacticool gear and taking control of the situation at a public location "for real" (as opposed to "training") sure beats chewing the rag at the local 7-11 or Dunkin' Donuts! It's a free "adrenaline" rush. So calm down, "clueless civilian". We're from the government and we're here to help you. John |
Yes. In your case, the primary response unit was probably out of service for whatever reason, so the secondary unit was sent to assist the ambulance. It happened to be a ladder truck. Not the end of the world. If it was you having the heart attack and the ambulance got tied up in traffic or something, wouldn't you be happy for the extra help to show up, no matter if it were a sexy rescue truck or a big ladder truck? John |
The APC is mobile cover. Mobile cover is a GOOD THING....departments fortunate enough to have them often take them on barricaded suspects, warrants, and other emergencies. Beyond just having armor, they typically have lots of horsepower and can come in handy for lots of tasks. The local PD's APC got called in on a fire to move some vehicles out of the way so the fire trucks could get access. The APC is a tool with more uses than you might think.... |
Explain how he was "sweeping" the weapon....just randomly waving the weapon around, or was it slung as he was walking around. (Which would "sweep" people on a lower level than him)
A bomb threat in a public place is something that can legitimately be treated like a possible terrorist attack. The point being you don't assume you are dealing with the lowest level on the scale of crap that can happen. It is better to show up with more force than you need than with less. |
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I jnow little about this stuff, but are bombs ever detonated remotely? Would it be good to have someone on a roof looking for that? Someone with a rifle? ETA: At a building where I worked, they closed the back lobby due to a swuspicious package (backpage) there. EOD showed up. Yet building management kept the front lobby open 50 feet away. That was reassuring, |
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I actually just got done attending a training course yesterday dealing with this very specific topic. Bomb threats and suicide bombers, how to recognize and react. Did you know that if you have PC to believe that a person has a bomb, you can use deadly force? Even if the bomb has been left and is not in their possession? Even if the person is walking away from the scene? You do, because bombs have a 360 degree blast radius. Directionality of travel is irrelevant. Bombs can also be remotely detonated, so dropping the controller is a valid tactical solution. As I said in my first post, it sounded like they had a good response to the scenario. And no, you dont want to roll the bomb squad for every single threat. Regular LEO checks it out, looks for suspicious devices. Cordon off the area, set a perimeter, and check all lookie-loues as one is very likely the bomber/hoaxer. If a suspicious device is found, THEN call the bomb squad and clear the area, depending on the device a minimum of 1000 feet. Let the Bomb Techs handle the device, regular LEO still maintains the perimeter and looks for the bomber/hoaxer. Going back to Rudolph again, he staged events to see the police response and stood by watching. He then used that information to plant his secondary devices in the area's where first responders gathered so he could try taking them out too. |
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I am not LEO....yet. Nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express but here's an idea. Bomb threat: They don't know it's a hoax until fully investigated and cleared. That sniper/observer has his people in the building. It is a fact that arsonists and bombers like to observe their work. Sniper observes the area looking for subject with detonator or other suspicious behavior and reports it back to his superiors and stands by for orders. Sniper may be ordered to take out person if it appears to positively be a detonator as time is a factor. You can't just let a subject with a detonator sit around all day. It would take a sniper to shut his body down without the nervous system plunging the button. Too many variables in a bombing situation for me to know or pretend to know. This is just some possibilities I came up with. Carry on. |
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Well everybody like to trash "MrMorden" right now and unfortunately something dawned on me that has me thinking he has a point. All this stuff does need to be justified to the public. There are two extreme here possible for this situation. Some bombing Iraqi style where people are gunned down after the bomb goes off. The opposite extreme is a bored teenager made the call and is laughing at it all. Now which happens far more often? I am all for being prepared for the worst but these answers to MrMorden only work well here. Out with the general public those responses just won't work so good. Now what would the average tax paying, voting citizen think? So how about some better responses. |
The average member of the public knows as much about emergency response as I do about interior design.... In other words, they are clueless. |
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What's better? Waste time and money to investigate a fraud commited by a teenager or explaining how you just killed a couple hundred innocent civilians and a SWAT team because you didn't properly conduct a bomb threat response because of how it might look to the public? The selfsame people that don't think we should respond 'all-out' to these threats are the same people that would raise unholy hell if something happened to their 'perfecct little world'. On top of the fact that every threat needs to be addressed, the teams get real world practice if nothing else. |
Why in the HELL would I care what the "average tax paying, voting citizen" think? I dont want the average citizen responding to a bomb threat at my place of employment. I don't want an average citizen performing my surgery, or working on my car either. I want a trained professional, who has the knowledge, tools, and equipment to do the job right. |
Would any of those "uses" be projection of authority and/or intimidation ? Why not have a tank and crew served weapons too ? I'm sure they can find "uses" for them as well.....no ?? |
Jesus, you guys slay me. First I'm *obviously* a teenage poseur, then I might have been a cop but was not one for *long enough* to be "worthy" of expressing an opinion. I already stated numerous times that I am stating an *opinion*, and that I am *not* an expert. I have never claimed to be anything here other than what I am. You guys win...LEOs always know best, always act appropriately, and have god-like knowledge of all things. I am humbled. 
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I used the word "pointing" in my original post accurately. He was on the roof of the Wal-Mart, walking across in a tactical crouch, M4 to shoulder and cheek to stock, sweeping (really!) the weapon over the parking lot below.
Apparently I am not being heard here. I did not say that no response was needed. If explosives are involved (potentially), you cordon off the area and call in explosives *experts* to deal with the situation. If there really is a bomb, as I said above, all the tactical teams provide is more dead bodies (though in kickass gear). One thing that was stressed to me over again as a LEO was explosives are no joke, and you call in the experts. |