Posted: 10/14/2001 5:20:26 PM EDT
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Interesting case for any law buffs- i'd like to hear some interpratation on it as it relates to AR15's. U.S. v. Cecil, 457 F.2d 1178 (8th Cir. 1972)- Brief summary- Black Panthers had a young Negro guarding the door to their house with a sawed-off shotgun. Cop sees it, and proceeds to take action... There were many facets to the case (Like, apparently the cops used the shotgun weilding young man as a human shield as they entered the house- lol - ) but... The main point of the case is this. The whole thing stemmed from the cop seeing the sawed off shotgun. Since posession is otherwise legal with the proper tax stamps- can he assume that the young man was in violation of the law based on his mere sight of the weapon? The court said Yes, he can. The defense argues that seeing the weapon alone wasn't just casue- since such weapons can be legally posessed. One could argue that he looked young- which gives cause to the cops to proceed, since someone who looks that young couldn't possibly legally own such a weapon in the first place. But, his age can't be determined from sight alone either (Anyone ever seen the "Barely Legal" porn magazine?) It was a prob-casue issue. So... as this relates to AR15's- Cop sees you with an AR walking out of the house, loading your car for a range day. According to the findings of this case, he has cause to kick in your door, becasue the AR "might" be a full auto. Remember. According to the findings of this case, the mere sight of the weapon itself was cause to believe it was illegal. Although the weapon in this case would otherwise have been classified under the realm of teh NFA, whereas an AR can be purchased as a title 1 firearm, the ideal remains the same. Opinions wanted. I'm presenting this case in my Civ class. |
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Quoted: The SB shotgun is visually verifiable at a reasonable distance, the nature of the AR is not. Given the ratio of FA to Semi-only ARs, PC is much harder to construct. But SBS's aren't illegal in all circumstances. While the cop can visually verify it, it doesn't mean he is verifying anything illegal. |
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Arguing the PC for the SBS bust is moot, since the court already bought into it. My contention for the lack of PC for a bust on the AR still stands. Nowadays, I suspect the SBS bust would get tossed on profiling challenges to the PC. But the age and race of the holder of the SBS are probably what led to the bust in the first place. The BP affiliation sure didn't help either. |
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Probable cause is built on the totality of the circumstances. I really would not presume that an AR or AK to be full auto and thus a restricted item worthy of further investigation under normal circumstances. Brandishing one in public however may be construed as a violation of several statutes. Anything from disorderly conduct to inducing panic. A sawed off shotgun on the other hand is a restricted item. It's possesion in civilian hands is controlled and licensed. This would peak an interest. Someone standing guard with one in a residential or business disctrict would certainly cause one to ask further questions. I would venture that this was constitutionaly a good bust. It should in no way hinder a sportsman loading his car as that would easily be seen as a diffent circumstance. I have encountered numerous such weapons while working in the projects NONE were legally possesed. Based on that experience I would venture that most being brandished were not legally owned, got papers with that? Didn't even know what I was talking about. In contrast ran into alot of legally owned AKs ( no ARs too expensive and not mean enough looking for the bangers ) and yes I had local knowledge and knew my clientel so that isn't profiling. Most we encountered were dropped after an officer returned fire and the bad guys ran. You see in these areas it was not uncommon to fake a call, get the cop car into a corner and open up with a polytech, they usually ran when fire was returned, got three beautiful Polytech folders for the blast furnace one New Years eve when the locals decided to light up a cruiser. Dropped and ran when the cavalry arrived, fortunately no injuries other than abraisions from diving for cover and alot of holes in the cruiser. Don't judge too harshly friends. The inner city in some areas is a different world than you are used to and its right next door. Think Beirut and you are close. With that in mind I think we did a pretty good job of protecting people's rights. |
| To be honest, I haven't read the case, but I don't think I need to to answer this one. Possession of a SBS, like a machinegun, is illegal unless approved by the Secretary of the Treasury and registered to the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). From a casual inspection, it is impossible to tell if the weapon in question has been so registered. Do they have PC to detain you and take you into custody? Probably, until you can show your possession is not illegal (and obviously, there is PC in the 8th Circuit). It is somewhat analogous to the situation with "pre-ban assault rifles". If you have a firearm which meets the statutory definition of an assault rifle, you're in violation of the law and can be taken into custody. It is up to you to prove your possession is legal because the gun was an assault rifle (with the statutorily defined features) prior to 9-13-94. OTOH, absent a sear hole, or a barrel under 16", it is impossible to tell if an AR15 must be registered to the NFRTR by a casual inspection (without opening it up). |