Posted: 8/8/2007 11:47:55 PM EDT
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Here's the situation, I'd like to know how you would handle this situation, and if you believe that the way that you would handle it is lawful. Here goes: You are driving to another location, following a friend of yours, to the home of a mutual acquaintance for a get together. Your interest is in following the vehicle in front of you. Along the route, you stop at a red light. A vehicle is attempting to move from a parking lot on the right side of the road between your vehicle and the vehicle in front of you, the one you are following. Normally you would let this person in, but in this case, you need to follow the car in front, so you edge a bit closer. The individual attempting to merge slams on the gas as the vehicle in front of you accelerates into the street and immediately brakes. The individual in the vehicle is no more than 6" from your front bumper, and traffic is immediately at your rear. There is nowhere for you to go without hitting somebody. The individual then exits his vehicle yelling obscenities, he's apparently quite mad that you didn't want to let him merge. He hasn't presented a weapon, but it appears that he's intent on fighting you. You are in a high crime area where individuals are likely to carry weapons and employ them in a criminal manner, and this guy seems like the type. You have your normal carry weapon on you. Your avenues of escape are essentially cut off, you have nowhere to retreat to without abandoning your vehicle, which really isn't an option. The individual continues to yell obscenities about how he's going to "fuck you up" etc. as he walks closer. How do you respond, the moment that the individual blocks your vehicle from moving forward (and you are blocked by traffic behind) and the individual exits his vehicle? You are armed, and you are not sure if this aggressor is armed. |
I would have let the vehicle merge so I'm not a good respondent to this scenario. However, if the person attempts to gain entry into your vehicle and you fear for your life, deadly force is authorized, in my opinion. |
OK, but for the purposes of this scenario, you're in a complete shitjob neighborhood. You have no idea where you are, and you would be screwed if you lost track of the car in front of you. |
I promise I'm not trying to derail your scenario but not knowing where I am is highly unlikely. I never go anywhere without knowing the route. Nobody should ever, if at all possible, travel somewhere without knowing how to get there and return. --> Doubly so if your route takes you through a 'rough' neighborhood. Be responsible for your own safety. This scenario is unsat.  |
OK, but that's not the important part of the scenario. Tailor it to your own situation, any situation in which your vehicle is blocked from retreat, and you are being rapidly approached by a *possibly* armed aggressor that who, upon contact, has not yet presented a weapon. |
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You make the assumption that the other driver would be unreasonable if you simply explained that you don't know the area, your following the other car, and don't want to get lost. I don't think you've reached that "last resort" point yet. If it becomes obvious that he won't listen, then I suppose the next action is to draw down(R). |
The aggressor is not interested in hearing what you have to say. He's interested in telling you how he's going to "fuck you up" and appears to be interested in putting himself in a position to do so. |
When you carry in your vehicle, do you unholster your weapon? Have an alternative means of securing the weapon in your vehicle while driving? |
Depends on the method of carry. I CCW IWB at 4 oclock. Based on the scenario, I think I have time to unholster, and place the car in reverse. Hopefully, the cars behind you will get the hint and back up so I can get out of there. If not, just sit tight and be ready to light him up if he starts any shit. |
| Yes. I unholster the weapon and put it in the door. I cut out a section of the plastic on the door trim so I can grasp the pistol when it it in the compartment. The door compartment holds it perfectly, and I am left handed, so it is natural for me to put it there. |
The reason I ask is because unholstering from that position would require you to unfasten your seatbelt (which, in this situation, could further provoke the aggressor, making him believe you're in for the fight) and actually draw, if even to just have your weapon in hand, which would also likely be visible to the aggressor. Not the weapon itself, but the draw. At that point, if he pulls a weapon, he's not legally justified because he instigated the fight, but that's not what he's going to tell police after it's said and done. "He drew on me, so I drew and shot him". |
Good call. I was thinking of mounting the crappy holster that came with the weapon (secure but junk for carry) directly on the front of the seat to allow for a discreet draw (see above post for relevance). |
Wait til he`s right outside my door, open it as hard as I can into his face/groin...preferably groin. When he's on the ground get out, unzip the ol` fly, and piss on him. Hick him in the teeth, get back in and lock the door. Actually, I`d lock the doors, crack the window and tell him to get back in the car. If he tries to get in draw down and watch as he pisses/shats himself. |
And if he doesn't piss/shit himself? |
Not really. You are in the car, and as such, are restricted in your ability to maneuver. HE can simply withdraw. If it went to court and the thing went down as you describe, I would imagine you would be found innocent. While my analysis probably has no legal backing (stand ground vice duty to retreat), any inelligent juror shoul dbe able to figure out who the aggressor is. Also, I can draw without removing my seatbelt, but if you can't, I would suggest figuring out a good place to keep your CCW whole driving. Might have to get creative. |
Shoot him until he does? 
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I'll take your word for it, but I have a hell of a time drawing with my seatbelt on. I wear long buttondown shirts to conceal my CCW while walking around. When I get in the car, the seatbelt goes over the shirt, basically pinning the weapon underneath both the seatbelt and the shirt. Do you wear short shirts? I'm curious how you get to the weapon, 4 O'clock IWB without removing your seatbelt or shifting your hips significantly to make distance between the belt and the weapon. Sounds like a new vehicle carry method is in order. I'd just spring for another CCW to stash in the car at all times in a more accessable location, but I don't want to leave a loaded weapon in my vehicle that I'd have to take with me if I disembark, or keep it roasting in the vehicle, *maybe* affecting the ammo. 
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I just wear a jacket over the CCW. I can get at it pretty easy with minimal shifting of hips. IF I have shorts, I use a SmartCarry, which would be a problem seated in a car. Sometimes, I have the pistol on the console or the passenger seat. Seems like one of those things that you try to plan for the best you can. Maybe I should do some more planning.
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It was 98 degrees here the other day according to the car's not-so-accurate thermometer. No way I could get away with a jacket.  Honestly, I hadn't even considered such a scenario. I always figured, "If it comes to it, exit the vehicle, draw from the exterior of the vehicle", or "just gun it! GTFO of the situation ASAP!". Neither would be practical. Sometimes you plan really well, sometimes you just get lucky. But it's now clear that this is a likely problem to consider, lightyears more likely than "contact left! contact left! Bail out!". 
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First, I would've let him merge. If the person you are following isn't a total moron or tool they will wait on you seeing that you didn't make it through the light. If the person leading doesn't notice that you didn't make it through the intersection they are not paying attention unless it is whiteout blizzard conditions and you shouldn't be driving anyway. After the merge I can catch up to the lead provided he/she doesn't think it's a rally roadrace and speed off at a rediculous rate into the night. If the lead car doesn't wait on you it's probably not worth following them to wherever and I turn around and go home. Now back to your scenario stipulations. Call 911 and sit rep them, don't hang up. They record these calls and it will be good evidence if you have to use deadly force. I would crack the window,apologise and explain the current situation,roll up the window and let the aggressor make the next move while my sidearm is in my right hand at the ready. If the agressor advances and tries to open the door, raise the weapon and explain my intent on using it if he doesn't make tracks to his vehicle and proceed on his way. If he makes contact with my window in a violent manner, accept my new hearing loss and fire away. After he hits the ground having been ventilated, I wait on the authorities. I remain on high alert considering the neighborhood I am currently stuck in. There will probably be witnesses if they don't haul ass after having wintessed this high velocity transaction. |
(relevant text underlined) The vehicle in front is driven by a complete moron who is following another individual who is a personal friend of yours. Complete moron wouldn't want to lose track of the vehicle in front, and the vehicle in the lead wouldn't realize that you'd fallen behind, as you would be two cars back. |
I didn't present it in my OP because it was not, and still is not relevant in any way to the part of the sequence of actions considered in this scenario. |
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Just wait until you have the angry aggressor approach your car and he is not presenting a visible weapon and threatens you with physical violence. He does not touch your vehicle but is blocking your exit. You implement the patented Draw Down. He leans closer and says, "Go ahead, I want to see the fuckin' sparks come out" as he stares at the barrel. He still has not shown a weapon or has touched your vehicle. What do you do now??? |
That's the important aspect of this scenario. It would probably not be legal to shoot him, but what are you supposed to do? Sit in your car until he goes away? Call the police, who will take at least half an hour to get there?
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