[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Good shoot...or Bad? Part II (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/1/2007 3:40:36 AM EDT
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A hypothetical case for consideration, please. Let's say a police officer is investigating a suspicious person in a dark alley. The officer is wearing a standard police uniform, including a hat, badge, etc. He is searching the alley and as he comes around a corner, a "bum" type person, comes out of the shadows, about 20 feet from the police officer. The police officer hollers, "Stop!" The guy replies, "I'm an undercover officer investigating a drug house, leave the area immediately," while quickly moving towards the shadowy figure so as to not have to yell and give away his position. The officer pulls his weapon and places two into the 5X ring on the perp, who goes down in a pile. He is DRT. Other officers run up and they turn over the perp. The officer says, "I didn't know who he was or what he was doing, but he lunged at me and seemed to be reaching into his coat pocket for something." The other officers open the perp's coat and find a police badge. Good shoot or bad. |
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I didn't answer your poll because it's stupid. An undercover is not going to say he's undercover and to get the hell away from him without giving so much as a credential or something. The officer is not going to shoot a man for moving away from him without having a visual of something justifiying the use of deadly force. A man that charges you with something in his hand can be viewed as an act of deadly aggression. A man hiding in the shadows telling you to go away is not in any sense justifiable in the use of force. |
You need to re-read my post or brush up on your reading comprehension. |
You're right. Either I'm tired and can't read, or you edited your post. But still, even if the man approached the officer, he didn't pull anything out of his pocket that could resemble a weapon, and he didn't give a menacing growl and rush towards him. The officer in this situation would need to give verbal commands to stop right there until he can be identified. The officer either has a broken flashlight or forgot it, but he needs a way to identify the suspect either way. If the man came towards him in a menacing way then the officer would have to use his use of force continuam to handle it. If he thought the man had a gun or a knife then he could use deadly force. If they got into a fight, then the officer could use OC or a tazer. It still depends on the situation. |
there are too many what ifs and variables that aren't considered we could sit here all day and argue a complicated fluid situaiton you have presented, and only having 2 answers on the poll to decide from makes the entire post stupid |
Read my last post and tell me what's wrong with that. And I do believe you that you didn't edit your post, I know I'm tired. 
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I take it that you posted this in the other thread? |
Spouting off at the mouth is not a way to identify one self. Drug dealer says he's UC, then when the officer is waiting to see his badge or something the DD puts 2 in his head. The officer needs to be precacious the whole time. A real UC is not going to tell Joe Schmoe that he's doing undercover work. So evidently, he knows who he's dealing with. Either way the officer needs to say X Police Depatment, stop right there. |
LINK TO Old Painless' thread with a sleightly different spin on the same situation.......
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Sooo, is that a vote for "Bad shoot?" |
I really don't like your scenario. If the officer shot within the context of your post, then yes he wrongfully killed another man. He would have to prove in a courtroom that he was in fear of his life. And based on the facts that you presented us, there was nothing to be in fear of essentially. |
nope, i posted good shoot in the other thread. |
I've been all alone arguing with people all night over this. I know, it's kind of like the special olympics.  I think me and you see eye to eye. |
Doesn't surprise me. |
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It's not a repeat topic, but then again you don't really care about that, do you? |
You keep pushing this vote issue. Did you intend to respond to my posts over your lack of key point details that has kept me from voting in your poll? |
Well, you quoted a post that wasn't directed at you, but, yes, I read your posts and responded to some of them. I think you have a good handle on the hypothetical situation and am pretty sure how you voted. |
I quoted that because you asked me the same thing intead of answering or entertaining some of my responses. I only voted see the results.
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Good shoot...or Bad? Part III There is a busy highway with a speedlimit of 45 mph. A Police officer walks into the highway right in front of a car, draws his gun and shoots and kills the driver of the vehicle. He was obviously in fear for his life. Good shoot or bad shoot? |
I'm afraid I don't get the smugness of this comment. I read Ole Painless's scenario, and I'd vote for good shoot. You don't rush a police officer in a dark alley (growling, or otherwise behaving in an aggressive manner) with something in your hand... where I come from, they call that "suicide by cop." And who cares if it was a hair brush or comb... was it one of the ones with a knife or shank in the handle? Had he sharpened the end into an improvised weapon? Do you wait to see when the guy is rushing you with an apparent weapon? I wouldn't. It think it's far more reasonable to assume he's rushing me to do me harm, and not some sort of overly-enthusiastic wandering hairdresser who's trying to fix my cowlick. The one you posted is far more murky, and I can't see too many police officers behaving the way you described. Undercover guys (and plainclothes cops in general) are well-aware of the dangers of being mistaken for a perp, and are generally very careful when faced with an officer who doesn't know them. You actually get training on this, hard as that may be to believe. There are way too many things that aren't being figured into the mix here. |
I'll refrain from calling you names. |
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These, both threads, are interesting scenarios. They both underscore the dangers that police officers face that guys like me don't. Are they good shoots.....in my book yes. In Texas, I would say that meet the burden needed to justify deadly force. Those seem to all be skills needed to survive these situations. |
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What they are trying to impart is that the scenario is based upon lack of proper Police procedure. An undercover (UC) will not ever identify himself as such until personal contact is made (he'd play along until he was able to explain in a safe manner), and probably as such will not be "on surveillance". Surveillance will be accomplished by other team members equipped with proper ID for just that situation, a UC will NOT carry a badge. Also the locals in my area usually know we are in town and that an OP is in the works. A UC understands the limit of personal identification he places on a patrol officer and acts accordingly. The scenario is slightly flawed but it is only through understandable lack of knowledge, you gotta be there to know. |
One JBT shoots another JBT(2 for the price of one) OOPS...I think a little sarcasm crept in there. ------------------------------------------------------------ Reality Here: I find that hypotheticals are often ludicrous.......if the moon was orange what would be a good choice of heels to match my purse? |
 The way I figure , if a scenario actually DID go down like that , 2 things are going on... 1 - The UC was WAY too quick to out himself as a cop , and it was only a matter of time before he advertised himself to the wrong folks and got shot. 2 - The uniform officer was too quick to shoot in the absence of a valid reason to escalate to lethal force. (In this scenario , it is NOT given before the shot that the uniform saw the suspect reaching for a possible weapon , only that the suspect is speaking and moving) It was only a matter of time before this uniform cop practiced poor judgement and fired on an innocent non-LEO. Bad shoot , but if it actually happened that way , BOTH officers are to blame for the incident. One pays with his life , the other pays with time behind bars. ETA - By the way , I voted "good shoot" in the other thread , because even though the uniform officer in that scenario didn't do everything right (no flashlight , didn't identify , etc.) , it WAS given in that scenario that the uniform SAW the suspect draw what appeared to be a weapon while making a clearly aggressive advance , all BEFORE the officer made the decision to draw and fire. In THIS scenario , no such clearly aggressive advance was given. It is given that the UC was speaking to the uniform while moving in his direction (not growling). It is also NOT given in this scenario that the uniform saw a possible weapon BEFORE the decision to draw and fire. |
