Posted: 6/29/2007 11:35:33 AM EDT
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Sorry, but I had to make this separate thread since I didn't want to pull the "Is it worth it to buy a boat" thread too far off topic. Personally, I've got a LITTLE bit of a problem with Carburated Engines... In the other thread I was asked by a local buddy of mine: 
First off, GREAT SCORE on the Aluminum fish & ski! (Alumacraft?) As for carbs... Hmmm... Lemme think.... What problem do I have with Carbs?  In a nutshell: IMHO, CARBS are less reliable (even though there's fewer parts & therefore in theory less to 'go wrong') and more prone to breaking, starting problems & hassles, and flooding... TWO STROKE CARBS are TOTALLY different than a 4-stroke carb engine... There IS less to go wrong with a 2-stroke, IMHO. I kinda like 'em since they're easier to fix. Here's my beef with Carbs: EVERY SINGLE THING I'VE OWNED WITH A CARB has BROKEN DOWN on me... * My 1985 Oldsmobile (pictured to the left) that us MN boys shot up was the WORST. It had an Electric choke, but it didn't always work because on cold mornings the flap would stick. Sometimes I had to pull a manual choke cable I had strung thru the glove box so I could start it when the electric choke didn't do the trick. I've owned 2 fuel injected cars & 2 carburated vehicles. I've not had ONE SINGLE PROBLEM with the fuel injected vehicles. I've had NOTHING BUT TROUBLE with the carb vehicles, and had to rebuild the carb on it TWICE (once professionally in a shop - the second time I did it RIGHT myself). * The 4-stroke outboard fishing boat I'm fixing up in Ottertail County this weekend has a Carb, and WOW! Guess what!? It's having troubles with the fuel system... It starts, but doesn't STAY running. Hmmm... Fuel system problems. I'm hoping it's not a carb issue. * We got a used lawn mower, but I saw that it needs to have the carb rebuilt or replaced before it'll run reliably... That's $35 in parts, and a couple hours work... Same goes with snow blowers that previous owners didn't properly 'winterize'... * My parent's first boat (Lund Tyee) had a 115 Mercury Outboard 4stroke with Carb. Left my mother and I stranded REALLY far from shore in chilly weather. Guess who had to put on the wetsuit & life jacket, tie a rope around his waist and swim it back to shore because there was nobody in sight as far as you could see (and nobody was responding on any of the radio channels we tried and approaching weather was limiting comms)? ===> ME. Talk about a workout. (same thing happened 2 weeks ago with the fishing boat I'm gonna be fixing tomorrow - luckily that was only swimming a shade over 100yds pulling the boat and it wasn't windy/wavy due to an approaching storm) * My fiance's 2-stroke carb'd Wave Runner hasn't started since the middle of last season... Another new project to work on when I get the spare Time & $$... But it's gonna be a P.I.T.A., and take me about 3 weekends, and probably $150 in parts to fix it... Every single Carb'd vehicle (car, boat, or truck) that I've dealt with has been NOTHING BUT A HEADACHE. On the other hand I've NEVER HAD ONE PROBLEM getting stranded ANYWHERE (lake, river, or highway) in a vehicle with a Fuel Injected Engine. *Knock On Wood* What kind of maintenance is required for a Fuel Injected engine? I honestly don't know what MORE maintenance is needed than what you'd still encounter in a Carb'd engine. Occasional replacement of a wiring harness every 3 years, replace spark plugs every season, oil changes, the occasional fuel treatment added to a tank of gas every 2-4 months... Keeps them running smooth. Drain the fuel system & change the oil every time you put it into storage... Not much of a problem IMHO. Better than having to putz with priming & choking the engine all the time, keeping starter fluid & junk to get her running after the engine floods (usually when someone who doesn't know what they're doing tries to start the engine)... Just a big hassle IMHO, and I'm sick of rebuilding carbs (on lawn mowers, cars, boats, etc.). I've NEVER had a problem with a fuel injected car, and have you ever wondered why they don't even SELL CARS WITH CARBS anymore??? There's a reason behind that. They're obsolete, and unreliable (IMHO) in adverse conditions. Why buy a RECREATIONAL vehicle without fuel injection? Unless you LIKE spending more time working on it than actually USING it.  Naturally, I'm a tinkerer, and I like being able to fix things, but sometimes I'd rather own something that almost NEVER needs fixing in the first place (if proper preventative/proactive care is taken). If other people don't mind the hassles, more power to 'em. Personally I'm fed up with the obsolete technology... (There's a LOT of reliability / maintenance / cost reasons why I was SO HAPPY to see that Oldsmobile blown apart with Tannerite!  )That said... I don't have TOO MUCH of a problem with Carbs since they ARE less complicated, and I haven't found a single Carb'd engine that I couldn't fix myself... Well, there WAS this ONE string weed trimmer I couldn't fix, but that's because a former employee at my past job didn't like weed whipping, wanted to use a riding mower instead, so he smacked the engine up against a tree, then ran it over with the kawasaki Mule's rear tire (I saw him do it about 75 yards away) - he was fired on the spot when he drove up to me 2 minutes later saying, "I dropped it, and I don't know what happened! Can I use a riding mower instead?"  Sure buddy, I'm gonna put you on a $12,000 mower when you can't even take care of a $150 weed trimmer? If you're gonna get sick of the riding mower and want to drive the backhoe or dump truck you gonna cut the fuel line on the mower & set it on fire? ---- He was an idiot. Couldn't fix that carb'd engine -- couldn't legally fix the kid's brain either. So... What does the REST OF ARFCOM think about Carb'd Engines Vs. Fuel Injected Engines???
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Fuel injection is superior, and easy to understand if you just take the time to educate yourself. I service my own vehicles, and (aside from the Jeep which is a toy) they are fuel injected and 2000 or newer. With limited exception, fuel injection - properly implemented - is superior in nearly every measurable way. In many ways, new cars are simpler than many models in the 80's. |
If you have an IQ level that is above 2 figures and about 15 min, you can learn how FI works. Carbs are simple, cheap, and easy to fix and repair. FI is simple, moderately priced, and if you ask me, much easier to troubleshoot than a cab anyday. EFI produces better efficency, more power, flatter torque curve, and a cleaner running engine. Also, it can run upside down, on a steep hill, and does not need to be rejetted for altitude changes. About the only place I want a carb is on my lawn mower, everything else, gimmie EFI. |
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for those that like carbs and think they are simple, get an old muscle car with a holley. .. or 3 .. now 'rebuild it'.. check the price of the rebuild kits. and the nice carb cleaning fluid, and getting the damn thing back together with no air or fuel leaks.. and now you need to adjust all the jets, idle and throttle settings manually.. and hope they stay set.. fuel injection, especially computerized versions of today are vastly superior to carbs. |
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Grew up with fuel injection, well for as long as I was able to understand what is under the hood. I know more about them and find them plenty easier to work with/on because of that reason. Changing out the entire FI system isn't as easy as changing out a carb, but it's still pretty easy if you know what you're doing. As for tuning, it's not a part of the car you have to touch much or really ever, except for the first time. If you put big enough injectors on and a big enough pump, you shouldn't ever have to change them again. |
You are lost. Give it up. Show me a carb setup that can go 200,000mi without being adjusted, rebuilt, or completely replaced. I know its hard to accept that something that was invented over 120 years ago could be bested by modern technology. You show me a carbed street car that can make 800hp, run on 93 octane and get 20mpg. Show me a 2-stroke boat with a carb setup that ISNT a pollution machine. As for tuning, what could be easier than plugging in a laptop and hitting a few keystrokes? Uh oh, here comes summer again, better do some jetting work. Taking a trip to the Rockies? SOL again. |
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Carbs are OK... but they do have limitations: I have a buddy that has a 1971 Porsche 911 that he's turned into an 'RS clone'. He's taken it out on a few track days, and says he can turn so fast, the centrifugal force is enough to starve his carbs. Not too great, huh? Last I heard, he was working on a 3.2 engine and an EFI system for it for just this reason. See, when people want to have fun in a fast car, they go somewhere with TURNS. I'm sure his carbs would be fine if he wanted to go in a straight line, but where's the fun in THAT? |
I'm not lost. I didn't claim to go 200K without "being adjusted, rebuilt, or completely replaced ". wouldn't run 200 cases through my rifle without a little maintenance either. Show me a two stroke anything that isn't a pollution machine  I drive FI stuff, but carburetion maintenance is almost a lost art, and I find it enjoyable. I find it easy to accept modern technology, that's why I don't ride a Harley 
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Exactly. FI for top fuel "Fuel is injected by a constant flow injection system. There is an engine driven mechanical fuel pump and about 42 fuel nozzles. The pump can flow 100 gallons/minute at 8000 rpm and 500 PSI fuel pressure. " Try that with a carb
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+1. Oh, and for shits and grins - richen or lean the mixture between 4,000 and 4,500 RPM. As a matter of fact, make it 12:1, but only there. It takes me a couple of minutes, and I don't even have to pop the hood. Just helped my dad rebuild the engine on his Explorer. Everything's brand new. When the moment of truth came, it started immediately. No tuning, no adjusting the timing, no adjusting the idle mixture, no adjusting the choke, no jet changes on a carb, no nothing. <click> vroom! It idled perfectly, and we didn't touch a damn thing. This is a vehicle purchased for $900 a year ago, that hadn't been running for almost a year prior to that (broken flywheel). The entire engine was rebuilt by Dad and I, and TONS pf parts replaced. Most of the engine was a box of parts when we started. That's why fuel injection and PCM management of an engine rocks. My carb'd vehicles on the other hand... |
You can "get both" as it were on the 68. I've seen aftermarket throttle bodies that bolt to regular intake manifolds. A few years ago, I seem to recall Barry Grant modifying a Holley 4150 with 4 injectors. You buried the PCM under the seat (or wherever), drilled and tapped a hole in the header for a wideband 02 sensor, and ran a small harness up to the throttle body. That was about it. There wasn't a whole lot to it. Car Craft did a before and after test with your typical 71 Chevelle, 350, big cam, 4.11 gears, etc. Mileage went from 13 to 20mpg, the car made an average of 20 more horsepower over the entire band, and they were able to bring the idle down from 1100 to a mere 700rpm. Best of all, with the air cleaner on top, you'd swear it was a carb'd engine. Neat, huh? |
 From HERE
ok, what do I win? -JTP |
All good points in here... I like this discussion. I'm just sick of fixing Carb'd engines. Yeah, they're quick, but you have to do it so often when someone else doesn't know what they're doing.
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I've hot rodded FI. All's it takes is the right cables and a laptop. I get instant feedback on O2 levels in exhaust. I can change every parameter on the fly, including: injector pulse time, amount of fuel injected, injector timing, spark timing. Its friggin' awesome. Fuel injection is way easier than dicking around changes jets on a carb. I can test multiple setups in the time it takes to swap jets once. -Z |
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I heart FI. I converted a '70 chevelle to FI. Go out to the car, open garage door, turn key, put in gear, drive away. No stalling, rough idling, annoying ass "characteristics", heat soaks, vapor lock, and other assorted B.S. like trying to adjust the idle mixture so it runs good today, then tomorrow the weather changes and its out of whack again. No maintenance, no fuss. It hasn't been touched since installed, and does not need adjustments or tinkering. I am all about DRIVING it, not futzing around in the garage working on it. I do that all week long for a living. |
And see what their maneuver limitations were (no fast dives unless you invert first, negative g's would kill the engine, then you're really screwed), and how planes were usually given a full overhaul as often as possible. Some German engines were FI, I think, and they had a more forgiving maneuver capability, and the better pilots would use that to their advantage (i.e. get away from a Mustang by going into a negative g dive that the 'Stang or P-47, or whatever else couldn't duplicate). Also, those planes were mostly designed 70 years ago. There have been major improvements since then, y'know. A P-38J versus, say, an F-4E? No contest. ETA: Hell, the Beach Boys even had a song where their "fuel-injected Stingray" kicks some other guy's ass in a carb'd car. And page 2, yadda yadda |
You missed my point - most of the high performance ones were injected. |
Lemme guess.. Microsquirt user?
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| On a vehicle that's regularly driven out in the boonies, a carb definitely has its benefits. Many carb failures can be field-fixed with a handful of simple tools, and they tend to be much more tolerant of bad gas. On a Land Rover out in the middle of the Mexican Baja or a small seagoing vessel, give me a carb. For everyday freeway and performance driving, make it FI. |
Fuel injection is easier to work with but is not necessarily superior. I run a 88 Saleen Mustang with a stroker 351 Windosr and EFI. The EFI definietly hurts the car in the 1/4 mile. I would pick up all kinds of horsepower switching to a carb system. The EFI induction systems on exotics and the upper pro classes are the bomb but systems available for most production cars are not the same thing in terms of power. If you look back at the fast Mustangs racing in the 80's during the 5.0 vs Buick days you will find that they all eventually swtiched over to carbs. |
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Unlike a carb, EFI is way-more than just putting fuel into the cylinders. It's requires a lot of sensor and computer support to work, but that's the beauty of it. The al-gore-rithms the computer runs and the decisions it makes based on data from sensors make an EFI engine adjustable on the fly, and throughout the entire rpm range. Just the optimization capability that the EFI engine has, hopelessly outclasses the carbed engine, so long as the engine operates over a wide rpm range. An engine that would run a narrow rpm range might do better with a carberator simply because of its tendency to allow for a denser intake charge that's provided by the evaporating gas in the manifold that cools it. But of course, this would be an extreme and unlikely scenario, except maybe for drag racing. I'd guess that nitro cars use FI for solving fuel distribution problems more than for engine optimization. Optimization over a wide rpm range is why EFI rules. |