Warning

 

Close
Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Cancel Confirm
AR15.COM
6/24/2007 10:27:57 AM EDT
I'm not trying to beat the dead horse, I just want to see statistically how ARFCOM stands.

The Ron Paul cult is very surprising in their stance.

Not trying to spark 30 pages of flaming and crying, just Yes or No

ETA: Yes, I do.
6/24/2007 10:31:14 AM EDT
[#1]
Stay the course.
Continue to support the Iraqi people and government.

IBTheTakeTheGlovesOffTards
6/24/2007 10:32:39 AM EDT
[#2]
Your options aren't very good.  You can answer yes to both questions and not be contradictory.

i.e. Option C) We shouldn't have gone to begin with but now we have to stay.
6/24/2007 10:34:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Excellent blog entry from today, that I have just been made aware of:

It's nice to, on occasion, read something from someone who has a clue  (especially when arfcom has been dominated by the isolationists and / or xenophobes lately):


From blackfive blog on Sunday 24 Jun 07



An Education in Military Science

Posted By Grim

And now that we've finished being nice to people for a little while, let me take a moment for other business.

"Strikingly, the big "sweep" against al-Qaeda failed for the exact same reasons that this technique always fails, both in previous iterations in Iraq, and also in other counterinsurgency situations around the world and throughout history."

Emphasis added.  So writes Mr. Yglesias, declaring current operations a failure on account of their not capturing the whole of AQI leadership.  His commenters joyfully pile on:  

"The aspect of Operation Ripper I find most disturbing is our failure to learn."

This demonstrates a complete failure to grasp the authorship of a new COIN manual; the change of command in Iraq and of overall military operations; the ascent of officers such as Generals Petraeus and Mattis, or Australian Col. David Kilcullen (who spoke to us here); or the reasons behind any of these things.  It simply ignores everything that has actually happened since last January, in preference for a preferred narrative:  the Surge failed before it began; it is failing now; it must fail in the future.

I realize that Mr. Yglesias is hampered by a Harvard education; that is a disadvantage for anyone.  Harvard was once a great institution for learning, the greatest in America; but that time has long gone.  It no longer educates the complete man, and yet its reputation is such that its alumni believe themselves to be educated to the highest degree.  They do not grasp that their institution has failed them.

In fairness to them, then, a course in counterinsurgency.  Consider it a remedial course for those who consider themselves overeducated, though they have failed to learn the basics of military science.

Two main articles will serve as an introduction:  

A Strategy for the Long War

The Gravity Well

The first of these is the most important for the current claim, i.e., that AQI fleeing battle is the mark of US failure.  (Indeed, to phrase it in plain terms makes it clear how odd a claim it is.)  We just finished talking about this.

AQ leadership normally does flee the battle. This is just what happened in 2004 in Fallujah. However, breaking their strongholds is important precisely because of what it does to their overall strategy, which is to set themselves up as 'the strong horse' versus America. Because they flee, and their strongholds are destroyed, they lose face -- the one thing they cannot afford to lose.

I discussed the question in "A Strategy for the Long War":

www.blackfive.net/main/2007/01/a_strategy_for_.html

"Now consider the example of Fallujah, where this played out in a larger arena. In Fallujah, the enemy convinced a hostile population that it could lead them to victory. As a consequence, the people of Fallujah gave themselves over to the leadership of Islamists, trained with them, and believed them when they said that the Marine Corps would be buried there.

"This, too, was an illusion. When the Marines and US Cavalry came, the terrorist leadership fled. The people of Fallujah who had chosen to believe the myth were left to fight alone, and fight they did -- hard, and according to the Fallujah veterans I've talked to, with a deep determination. In the end, however, they did not survive. Between the second battle of Fallujah and Iraq's elections, terrorist attacks fell forty percent. The elections came off almost without a hitch even there, in what had been the heart of enemy country.

"This was an occasion when our actions unmade the enemy's information strategy. There still remained Sunni insurgents -- their local problems remained in need of a solution -- but al Qaeda in Iraq's fall from popularity began there. Sunni tribes have increasingly turned against al Qaeda and Islamism, as Bill Roggio has journaled.

"Defeating the enemy requires breaking its myths. But its myths can be made anywhere, in any village, in any house. We can break their hold on Fallujah, and when they become rooted in a place, we must break their hold on it."

If we do that consistently, there will come a time when no one anywhere listens to their myths.

It would be impossible to prevent the escape, by any route, of AQI leadership elements from an impending battle.  Running from the US military is what they do; and an urban environment permits an endless number of opportunities for such flight.  What is important is breaking their myths.

Fallujah is the model for this.  We have just finished the RCT-6 email project.  RCT-6 is based in Fallujah, where the 2004 battle mirroring the current fights was undertaken.  Here is what its commander, Col. Simcock, said about the current fighting:

As I told you, we've been here now for about six months. As we progress further, we're using less and less artillery, less and less combined air support, weapon systems, combined arms-type activity less and less; our armored assets have been pulled out of Fallujah. Engagements, if you will -- the enemy that we're fighting here, there is nothing on the ground here that a Marine rifle squad can't quickly take care of. If they stand up and fight us, they're going to lose and they're going to love very, very quickly. Their chosen tactics right now are the improvised explosive devices that they plant on the roadways. Other tactics that we're seeing are suicide vests that they'll use, and a lot of these -- and also, I know you're very familiar with the vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices, but those tactics we're seeing more and more aimed at the Iraqi security forces vice the coalition forces. That's for, I think, for a couple reasons.

One, the success that the Iraqi security forces are having. The terrorists, the enemy that we're fighting here, they see that the tide is changing, that the support of the Iraqi people are coming over to the coalition force side, and the enemy are trying to use murder intimidation tactics and it's just not working against them. They won't -- the people of Iraq are standing up and they're fighting the terrorists, and it's good to see.

If we see the same success in the Baghdad belts from the current operation that we've seen in Fallujah, is that "failure"?  Or is that victory?

Neither, in fact.  It is a monumental step forward, but it is not sufficient for victory.  For that, Iraq must be established as a stable state based on democratic principles, with a firm and locally acceptable rule of law.  

It's an Iraq where sectarian violence is not the ruling factor of the day, and the religious community backs a society founded on peaceful coexistence.  As soon as DefendAmerica.mil has the transcript up, I'll have a conversation to post with MNF-I's command chaplain, on the recent religious congress in Iraq, which united to condemn al Qaeda and extremist violence.  It happened to finish up on the morning of the latest Samarra bombing.  

The clerics were together to call Iraqi media, and get out in front in calling for their followers to avoid violence and revenge.  Hear about that on the news?  Well, you'll hear it here.

Who put that conference together?  The United States of America's Department of Defense.  Who asked for it?  The Iraqi clerics themselves -- they sought out our chaplains, respecting them as fellow holy men.  DOD hasn't learned anything about dealing with the local culture?  They've learned enough to engage them, and put up the cash for a congress of this sort, complete with the security needed to get the leading religious figures together in Iraq.

The new COIN policy is a humane, honorable, fighting policy meant to crush the worst elements of violence in the world today.  It is opposed by forces who use as their means suicide, the intentional murder of children and the weak, and the attempt to destroy rather than rebuild the institutions of civilization.

It would be hard to sketch a clearer conflict between virtue and viciousness.  

It is a conflict that we are going to win.  I said we would win in the Sunni Triangle back in 2004, and we are winning there for exactly the reasons I told you we would be.

Our current foe is not the Ba'athists, but the Islamists. For all the worrying about the things we do that might turn the populace against us, it is rarely remembered that the enemy can turn the populace against it too.

There is cause to think that it is doing so.

Consider this: the Sunni Triangle, as mentioned, is largely tribal in culture. People who grew up there are strongly attached to the tribal system, which to them seems as natural and morally right as the sun rising in the east and the moon waxing and waning. The enemy of the tribe is your enemy -- and it is not our side that is wrecking the tribal strength.

An anti-war piece by paleoconservative site Lewrockwell illustrates this:

Last spring, the Marines made a deal with the Baath Party in Fallujah: Keep the place quiet and we?ll let you run it while keeping our hands off it. As has so often been the case in the history of war, it was the right move, too late. Throughout Iraq, the balance had already swung away from the Baath and any other forces that might have been able to re-create an Iraqi state, to non-state, Fourth Generation elements. The experiment in Fallujah was worth trying ? the only other option was destroying the city in order to save it, as we recently did in Najaf ? but the Baath was by then already a fading force. Of its Fallujah Brigade, the [New York] Times writes:

The Fallujah Brigade is in tatters now, reduced to sharing tented checkpoints on roads into the city with the [Islamic] militants, its headquarters in Fallujah abandoned, like the buildings assigned to the national guard. Men assigned to the brigade, and to the two guard battalions, have mostly fled, Iraqis in Fallujah say, taking their families with them, and handing their weapons to the militants.

Instead of the Baath, what we now face in Fallujah is a genuinely dangerous opponent. Its idol is not Saddam, but Allah. The Times reports that:

The militants? principal power center is a mosque in Fallujah led by an Iraqi cleric, Abdullah al-Janabi, who has instituted a Taliban-like rule in the city?with an Islamic militant group, Unity and Holy War [Tahwid and Jihad -- Zarqawi's group -Grim], that American intelligence? [has linked] to al Qaeda?

By invading Iraq, the United States in effect took Fallujah and much of the rest of Anbar Province from Saddam and gave it to Osama bin Laden... From the standpoint of our forces in Iraq, the main problem the third stage in the war there presents is that we have no one to talk to, no one to make deals with. As we saw in Fallujah in April, it was possible to make a deal with the Baath ? a deal the Baath genuinely wanted to carry out, though it proved unable to do so.

We all remember how the Taliban was scorned by the average Afghan -- how men rushed to shave their beards, women to go forth into the sun. We remember how many of the men impressed into service with the Taliban surrendered at first chance to the National Alliance, who embraced them like brothers and then summarily killed the "foreign fighters" who were there.

It is the guerrillas in Iraq who are undoing the tribal structure, scorning the traditional authority, and bringing chaotic change to the Sunni Triangle. The US military has negotiated with tribal leaders, not only in Fallujah but constantly. Had the assualt on Fallujah been completed, we would have emplaced tribal leaders over a town secure enough for them to control, instead of one that still contained a large enemy force. We would not have occupied it ourselves, any more than we have occupied Najaf.

The scorning of the tribes is an offense to the natural order in the minds of many Iraqis. Some will join, heart and mind, with the guerrillas -- they will accept that the tribal order was wrong and deserved to be overturned, in favor of Allah's divine sha'riah. Most will not, though while the guerrillas are present in numbers and with guns, they will be silent. Even the Afghans, a well-armed and fiercely independent people, did not toss out the Taliban, though they were very glad to see the back of them. The guerrillas in the Sunni Triangle, likewise, are their own worst argument.

That is another way of saying: American arrogance, for all we hear about it, does not match the arrogance of the guerrillas. We overthrew a national government that enjoyed some broad support in the Sunni triangle, but we did not try to overthrow the tribes. The insurgents are doing just that, turning the order of daily life upside down.  

Today, as Sunni tribes line up to fight AQI with us, we find ourselves fulfilling that vision.  Victory in Anbar was predictable in 2004, though even last year some said it was impossible.

I'll tell you we're going to win this whole thing, too, for the same reasons.  The only danger, the only danger, is that we pull away from the fight before it's over.  Unless we choose to lose, we will win.
6/24/2007 10:35:20 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
Your options aren't very good.  You can answer yes to both questions and not be contradictory.

i.e. Option C) We shouldn't have gone to begin with but now we have to stay.


Then your answer is Yes.

I don't want to turn the statistic into a shit heap of answers.

Just simply, do you want us to finish the job there or not.
6/24/2007 10:36:19 AM EDT
[#5]

Yes, the war has been a bit mismanaged but we should finish our job.


If this war has been a bit mismanaged then Enron had a bit of an accounting mistake, Ted Kennedy is a bit of a drinker, and Rosie is a bit overweight as well as being a bit outspoken and a bit liberal.
6/24/2007 10:36:41 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
<snip>


Great read, I skimmed through it.
6/24/2007 10:38:22 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Your options aren't very good.  You can answer yes to both questions and not be contradictory.

i.e. Option C) We shouldn't have gone to begin with but now we have to stay.


Then your answer is Yes.

I don't want to turn the statistic into a shit heap of answers.

Just simply, do you want us to finish the job there or not.


well this is arfcom, and thats what is going to happen.  
6/24/2007 10:39:24 AM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:

Yes, the war has been a bit mismanaged but we should finish our job.


If this war has been a bit mismanaged then Enron had a bit of an accounting mistake, Ted Kennedy is a bit of a drinker, and Rosie is a bit overweight as well as being a bit outspoken and a bit liberal.


Well overall, day by day we come closer to a safer and more democratic Iraq.

This war is not a nightmare mismanagement, otherwise we would not be doing so well but it could have been handled far better.
6/24/2007 10:47:43 AM EDT
[#9]
The choices are a bit loaded.

I chose the "train wreck, never should have been there" answer. The war has also been TERRIBLY mismanaged.

However, I don't think we can take off now that we've fucked everything up and made it into a power vacuum. Something different has to happen though.
6/24/2007 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
The choices are a bit loaded.

I chose the "train wreck, never should have been there" answer. The war has also been TERRIBLY mismanaged.

However, I don't think we can take off now that we've fucked everything up and made it into a power vacuum. Something different has to happen though.


Again, you're turning a simple answer into something complex.

DO YOU SUPPORT IT OR NOT?

Your reasons do not matter, it's a statistic.

Should we stay or should we leave?

6/24/2007 11:01:54 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The choices are a bit loaded.

I chose the "train wreck, never should have been there" answer. The war has also been TERRIBLY mismanaged.

However, I don't think we can take off now that we've fucked everything up and made it into a power vacuum. Something different has to happen though.


Again, you're turning a simple answer into something complex.

DO YOU SUPPORT IT OR NOT?

Your reasons do not matter, it's a statistic.

Should we stay or should we leave?



If the answers are getting too complex for you then change the poll choices.

A:  I support staying in the war
B:  We should leave


When you put "a bit mismanaged" when its more than clear that the biggest problem to date with the war was the management and not the soldiers ability to do what they were trained to do, then you'll get complex answers.
6/24/2007 11:06:22 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The choices are a bit loaded.

I chose the "train wreck, never should have been there" answer. The war has also been TERRIBLY mismanaged.

However, I don't think we can take off now that we've fucked everything up and made it into a power vacuum. Something different has to happen though.


Again, you're turning a simple answer into something complex.

DO YOU SUPPORT IT OR NOT?

Your reasons do not matter, it's a statistic.

Should we stay or should we leave?



Then your poll should have asked..

Stay?

Leave?

You added the loaded subtitles.
6/24/2007 11:08:00 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The choices are a bit loaded.

I chose the "train wreck, never should have been there" answer. The war has also been TERRIBLY mismanaged.

However, I don't think we can take off now that we've fucked everything up and made it into a power vacuum. Something different has to happen though.


Again, you're turning a simple answer into something complex.

DO YOU SUPPORT IT OR NOT?

Your reasons do not matter, it's a statistic.

Should we stay or should we leave?



That's not what you are asking.  There are many people who don't believe we should have gone in, that are 100% for our staying in now and doing this right.

Meanwhile, a shit load of arfcommers who were 100% hawkish 4 years ago are now trying to play Democrat and ignore reality - while blaming everybody and the boogie man.  They wanted a video game and something to watch on TV - and got more than they bargained for.

As I have been saying for years, between the isolationists, left wing supporters of Al Qeada, and the "kill 'em all" types, I doubt more than 10% of Americans truly have ever supported the current war effort - and that gets more obvious every month.
6/24/2007 11:08:18 AM EDT
[#14]
There's a big gray area between the two poll choices. Sure, if the war can be finished up in Iraq at reasonable cost in lives and money and will achieve some of the goals then we should stay and finish. However, if it's going to be just a big money pit and keep bleeding American lives, or if Iraqis really aren't ready for the democracy we're trying to put in place, or if terrorists are helped and not harmed by our continued presence (Iraq is now Al Qaeda University) then we should consider cutting our losses.
6/24/2007 11:20:24 AM EDT
[#15]
If my 9 year old cousin is going to have a chance to get in on Round Three we're going to have to pull out soon.
6/24/2007 11:25:40 AM EDT
[#16]
IT NO LONGER MATTERS whether we should have been there in the first place or not.  The fact is we ARE there.  That decision has already been made.  The only thing left is whether or not we finish the job.  
6/24/2007 11:25:48 AM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
Excellent blog entry from today, that I have just been made aware of:

It's nice to, on occasion, read something from someone who has a clue  (especially when arfcom has been dominated by the isolationists and / or xenophobes lately):

<Snip>




Wow, great post. Too bad the word isn't getting out. I was in Iraq (Fallujah) in '04 before, during and after we cleared the City of Fallujah. I was back again in '05-06. The changes are amazing but under reported.

I traveled out west near the Syrian border, the COP I was at got hit by some rockets, the first they had in a few months. Within hours the locals were giving the MIT/ING information on the people who fired the rockets. There have been several stories of local tribes running foreign fighters out of their villages.

The handling of this war has been far from perfect. Ramadi should have been cleared as soon as Fallujah was secured instead we stopped and gave them time to regroup. Sadr should have been arrested and his militia should have been disbanded after the Ali Mosque fight in Najaf, instead they were bussed back into Baghdad.

Despite what you hear on the news or hear from our Congress, we are winning, the locals are getting fed up with the insurgency and ISP/ING units are becoming effective.
6/24/2007 11:28:50 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
Stay the course.
Continue to support the Iraqi people and government.

IBTheTakeTheGlovesOffTards


+1
6/24/2007 11:36:25 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Excellent blog entry from today, that I have just been made aware of:

It's nice to, on occasion, read something from someone who has a clue  (especially when arfcom has been dominated by the isolationists and / or xenophobes lately):

<Snip>




Wow, great post. Too bad the word isn't getting out. I was in Iraq (Fallujah) in '04 before, during and after we cleared the City of Fallujah. I was back again in '05-06. The changes are amazing but under reported.

I traveled out west near the Syrian border, the COP I was at got hit by some rockets, the first they had in a few months. Within hours the locals were giving the MIT/ING information on the people who fired the rockets. There have been several stories of local tribes running foreign fighters out of their villages.

The handling of this war has been far from perfect. Ramadi should have been cleared as soon as Fallujah was secured instead we stopped and gave them time to regroup. Sadr should have been arrested and his militia should have been disbanded after the Ali Mosque fight in Najaf, instead they were bussed back into Baghdad.

Despite what you hear on the news or hear from our Congress, we are winning, the locals are getting fed up with the insurgency and ISP/ING units are becoming effective.


Your experiences sound similar to ours north of you (in Ninewah).  I was a bit surprised to come back to the States and "find out" on arfcom that we were losing, that the locals all hated us, and the our ROE was too restrictive, etc.

If there is any real parallel to this fight and one in Viet Nam - it seems to be the American people's willingness to believe enemy propoganda over the words of their own leadership.
6/24/2007 11:39:45 AM EDT
[#20]
I vote option 3.

"3.  We should have never went there in the first place, but since we are, lets finish the job."
6/24/2007 11:39:45 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Yes, the war has been a bit mismanaged but we should finish our job.


If this war has been a bit mismanaged then Enron had a bit of an accounting mistake, Ted Kennedy is a bit of a drinker, and Rosie is a bit overweight as well as being a bit outspoken and a bit liberal.


Well overall, day by day we come closer to a safer and more democratic Iraq.

This war is not a nightmare mismanagement, otherwise we would not be doing so well but it could have been handled far better.


The Another_Dude above seems not to know wars are historical exercisers in mismanagement all you have to do is study war.

WWII was one major screw up after another from being unrepaired to start with, staying with the wrong equipment (can you say Sherman tank) to mismanaged campaigns all over the world.

Just to name a few campaigns/battles after the initial disasters that had major problems and there are a lot more:
Guadalcanal
North Africa
Sicily
Italy
Normandy
Market Garden
The Battle of the Bulge

Just a few. Wars are managed or really mismanaged chaos.
6/24/2007 12:28:10 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
The question is can we ever win a war now that we have Television?      

Can you imaging the horror and outrage the American people would have had during WW2 if they had 24 hour news coverage and almost unrestricted access to the battle field?


Good question... my guess is if there had been 24 hour news coverage in WWII with todays access there would a collapse of the US War effort in 1943.