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Posted: 9/25/2001 5:46:29 AM EDT
What do you guys think? Does ATTA's (Hijacker) interest in cropdusters mean: 1. The terrorists have Bio/chem agents on American soil, and were trying to employ them. 2. Terrorists were anticipating the bio/chem agents to arrive from overseas, and were reconning delivery options. 3. Terrorists knew that in the wake of the attack, that their cropduster inquiries would be discovered, and wanted us to think #1 or #2. (Classic Counter-Intel) 4.?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:48:43 AM EDT
Either 1 or 3. I hope 3.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:55:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 5:58:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: What do you guys think? Does ATTA's (Hijacker) interest in cropdusters mean:
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You can bet your ass they are still here and are still planning and perhaps were stopped already. What we know is only a sliver of what is really going on. Think for a minute how many people have been detained my the government so far. Last count I heard was 300 suspects. The crop duster scenario is just one. These assholes will try to jack a fuel tanker, sabotage a refinery. They simply don't give a shit. All this diplomatic shit is going to get more Americans killed. In the end we will have to get totally wicked on Afghanistan. If not nukes, as close to nukes as you can get. This is an enemy that connot be dealt with any other way. The longer we wait to remove them from the earth, the more innocents will die. Bush says we are going to act, then dammit, ACT now before more Americans die. This animal knows no other way. Get bin Laden and all his buttbuddies to Allah as quick as possible so the civilized world can move on.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:06:54 AM EDT
100% agreed. Back to the topic, gents. Which is it, 1,2,3 or 4?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:07:02 AM EDT
4. They were planning to use the cropdusters to spray vapor for an improvised fuel air explosion. 5. They were going to spray "something" over a populated area and make us [i]think[/i] that it was a bio weapon. The resulting panic and disruption would shut down a city almost as effectively as a real bio attack would.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:11:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: 5. They were going to spray "something" over a populated area and make us [i]think[/i] that it was a bio weapon. The resulting panic and disruption would shut down a city almost as effectively as a real bio attack would.
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Why would they simulate a bio attack when they could just do the real thing? Doesn't make sense to me. Ian
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:12:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:15:33 AM EDT
If it's #3, these guys are very smart.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:21:04 AM EDT
Ricin.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:24:55 AM EDT
# 3. Now they have lost the element of surprise. If they were gonna do it, they would have done it. Besides, they like "made for TV" mellowdrama. A silent killer like bio or chemical weapons is too "invisible" for their tastes. After all, ALLAH has to SEE what they did.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:27:51 AM EDT
Small Pox wiping out a million Americans would be pretty visible.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:29:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: Small Pox wiping out a million Americans would be pretty visible.
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In like three years. They want IMMEDIATE results. No offense dude - but it seems like your MAIN motivation is to spread panic here. I see it in SEVERAL threads. Relax. God is in control.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:33:17 AM EDT
I think that they were inquiring about them simply as an option in case they couldn't act on the commercial jet option. Dusters would be premanufactured napalm canisters to them...
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:35:50 AM EDT
I have been concerned about a "failsafe" being employed to "avenge" the eventual capture\death of bin Laden. IOW, bin Laden tells his ops that "if you don't hear this certain message from me at at this certain time on this certain frequency, I'm gone. Carry out your further missions, and I'll see you up there." I can think of several reasons for the existing cells to hold off on further attacks (let us "get back to normal", keep us on edge, etc), and I believe this to be but one plausible scenario.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:37:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SubHumanGuy: Carry out your further missions, and I'll see you up there." .
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Or, in his case, DOWN there. [devil]
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:38:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2001 6:38:47 AM EDT by Major-Murphy]
I do take offense, g-man, my friend. How dare you suggest that I would desire to spread panic. We are at war. And I see too many of us (you), using this as a springboard fo our usual issues: home-schooling, militias, christianity, Rosie O'Donnell, etc., etc.. I am just curious and looking for input. I am concerned about us losing focus as Americans. We are at war. I don't think that our defense against panic should be the usual "opiate". We should be concerned with victory.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:41:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: I do take offense. How dare you suggest that I would desire to spread panic. We are at war. And I see too many of us (you), using this as a springboard fo our usual issues: home-schooling, militias, christianity, Rosie O'Donnell, etc., etc.. I am just curious and looking for input. I am concerned about us losing focus as Americans. We are at war. I don't think that our defense against panic should be the usual "opiate". We should be concerned with victory.
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Don't confuse "calm" with "lack of resolve." And I'll try not to confuse "heightened awareness" with "hysteria."
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:44:16 AM EDT
Very well my brother.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:45:10 AM EDT
Back to the topic, gents. Which is it, 1,2,3 or 4?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:51:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ian:
Originally Posted By Renamed: 5. They were going to spray "something" over a populated area and make us [i]think[/i] that it was a bio weapon. The resulting panic and disruption would shut down a city almost as effectively as a real bio attack would.
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Why would they simulate a bio attack when they could just do the real thing? Doesn't make sense to me. Ian
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Why do people phone in bomb threats when they haven't really planted a bomb? The terrorists didn't have to destroy every airliner in the country to turn the USA into a "no fly zone" for several days. Now, even though a repeat of the 9/11 attacks would be almost impossible (because passengers and crew with nothing to lose are going to fight back), the public's fear of flying is causing billions of dollars of losses to the aviation industry. Bio weapons are hard to create (for a terrorist cell, at least) and hard to handle. Panic is easy to create, even without a real bio weapon.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:56:14 AM EDT
Well said, Renamed.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 6:57:53 AM EDT
3 is plausible, they're smart enough to accomplish something like this - look how good a job the media is at spreading terror based on rumors. But they also really really hate us. I personally think that right now, the benefit to risk/cost ratio in their sick way of thinking doesn't pay as well as it would later. They still have quite a bit of milking to do on this last round. On another note - I don't normally support government handouts to nobody. Walter Williams said about paying farmers not to raise tobacco or hogs - "Hey I don't raise hogs! Where's my stipend?" But right now we've shut down an entire industry out of fear and speculation. It appears well grounded, but it is still fear and speculation.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:02:10 AM EDT
Anyone notice that you can't find a gas-mask to purchase. -that's panic. People are buying up paint respirators too. -that's panic fueled by ignorance. The best defense is knowledge. Learn about the threat, the agents and their properties, and realize that it's not much of a threat. Very difficult to employ.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:04:33 AM EDT
1. if 3, that would amaze me. but it makes sense that since our typical reactions are too narrow in scope, that they wanted to perpetuate it. meaning, they want us to focus only on the skies, so they can rent a big truck!
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:05:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Major-Murphy: People are buying up paint respirators too. -that's panic fueled by ignorance.
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Bwaaaaaaahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! How about clothes pins and hankies??? [:D] Better yet, don't breathe at all. At least you won't die of toxic fumes. Dumb people. Hopefully, they won't reproduce.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:05:46 AM EDT
[b]None of the above[/b] There is also speculation that they would fill the tanks with explosives or fuel and use them to ram buildings. A single cropduster is not very effective delivering bio or chem agents. It would require multiple planes (10) to make an effective attack.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:26:25 AM EDT
A single cropduster is not very effective delivering bio or chem agents. It would require multiple planes (10) to make an effective attack.
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What are your criteria for an "effective" attack?
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:34:41 AM EDT
For chem, it's like a grenade, it doesn't spread after it goes off (except in the clean-up). For bio, it depends on the agent and how densely populated the area is, where it is deployed. Anthrax and Small Pox can spread fast, and we don't have a very big supply of vaccines ready (bad). Bubonic Plague and Super-Flus are easier to stop, though the Flu IS airbourne.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:41:43 AM EDT
again, all eyes are UP, they should be right here on the ground - Grand Central Terminal is a just BEGGING for a germ attack! a briefcase with an O2 tank converted to spread germs when the valve is open, can be walked through (by a suicide germer) from 42nd street to 38th, without being detected. the germs will then be spread North, South, East and West by unknowing passengers going to CT, Upstate, NJ and PA. so cropdusters are a non-issue IMHO.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:49:17 AM EDT
I agree.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:52:57 AM EDT
Cropdusters would not be used to spread chemical weapons or smallpox. Anthrax is best delivered by a cropduster. Some of the former military experts have been saying there were studies to show one cropduster could kill hundreds of thousands during the daytime over a populated city. Anthrax is not hard to make and culture in cattle. Smallpox would be brought here by a dozen or more suicidal nuts infected with the disease. The outbreak could kill millions if not caught early(ant it would not be). So all of the talk about smallpox being difficult to make in large quantities is nonsense. Large quantities would only matter if they were trying to use missles or bombs to spread the disease like a real military would. What scares me is they were showing on the news here in baltimore the huge jet pesticide spreaders scheduled to fly over the city immediately upon the ban lifting to kill the mosquitos. Now west nile is bad and cases are showing up, and they want to prevent an outbreak, but one of those massive jets could spread a rediculous amount of anthrax around the city and noone would know until a few days later. Also, any U.S. citizen can purchase anthrax bacteria. You just need medical letterhead stating you are using it for research purposes. You get a small amount from the biological facility here in maryland, and then just infect cattle to produce as much as you want. Cost of the endeavor would be minimal, purchase some cattle, and a farm in the middle of nowhere USA where you won't be bothered or noticed when your animals die. The people in washington are not as informed as the military and police officials. They keep thinking biological weapons are difficult to make. They are easy to manufacture. Chemical weapons are tough. Chemical weapons require large facilities and equipment that is difficult to conceal.
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 7:54:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/25/2001 10:30:58 AM EDT
All of the above and possibly more. Im not trying to cause panic, but we need to be aware of our surroundings all the time and act accordingly. Im not paranoid, just real pissed off and watching for something else. I believe "renamed" might be the most realistic. If they cause widespread panic (which is what they have already done) they will accomplish part of their mission. Just my $.02 Ranger Out
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