Posted: 1/22/2007 9:27:25 AM EDT
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A lady that I work with got a speeding ticket based on a pace. She says, true or not, that she saw the officer and slowed down to only slightly over the limit. She wants to contest it in court, and asked my advice about things to ask. Here's what I think she should ask the officer: 1. Do you drive the same car every day? (My understanding is that this is rare in large departments.) 2. What is the number of the car you were driving on that day? 3. Do you have proof that the speedometer and odometer were accurate on that day? 4. How far from my car where you when you started the pace? 5. How far from my car where you when you finished the pace? 6. Did that distance change at all during the pace? 7. Did other cars get between us at any time during the pace? 8. For what total distance were you able to match my speed? 9. What was my speed? 10. Did my speed change at all during the pace? 11. Where was the closest speed limit sign? 12. Did the speed limit change at all in the area where you paced me? 13. What percentage of speeding tickets do you write based on pace, radar, and laser? 14. In your training, which is the preferred method: pace, radar, or laser? Why? 15. Which is the least preferred method? Why? Any other things that she should argue? Thanks! |
| Pay a lawyer to show up with you, the worst they will do is drop it to a non moving violation+fine. The money you save in insurance may be worth it. The officer usually won't show up for routine traffic stops either, so you win by default and it gets dropped. Good luck either way, most states have some sort of traffic school you can do to keep it off your (or your wives) record, might want to check into it. |
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Check this site out, www.ticketassassin.com You get some info, but if you want to access the good stuff its $25, but if it saves you the hassle and gets the ticket off your record, then its worth it. I know of a bunch of people who have done this, and their cases got dismissed. Its worth a try, good luck. Not sure if it helps for Texas, but i know in California is worksl ike a charm. |
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Those questions are very good. However, a wise lawyer once told me "never ask a question you don't already know the answer to." The problem with asking some of those questions is, if the officer doesn't answer the question the way you would like, what is your follow up? You can bury yourself quickly if you aren't quick on your feet. Also, was it a male officer and is your friend good looking? Not being a jerk, but question his motivation for the stop. Was it because she was speeding or was it to check out a hot girl? Compare his stop record (male vs. female). What was the average speed over the limit that he stopped? Does he generally let those going under that threshold go? If so, how fast was your friend going in comparision to the limit and was it under his normal "let it go" threshold? |
So she admits she was speeding and slowed down and was still speeding? Tell her not to repeat that in court, she'll get the ticket for sure. It sounds like she's already admitted her guilt. Best of luck though. |
Whatever works. Preferably something that will keep her insurance from going up. |
No, but traffic citations usually only need to be proven "by preponderance of Evidcence" not "Beyond a reasonable doubt". In that circumstance it boils down to one individual saying that there were speeding, and another saying that there was not. One of those individuals is an agent of the municipality (or state), and is (ideally) trained to make such distinctions. Another is not, that establishes preponderance of evidence. Essentially you start out innocent until proven guilty, but due to the lower bar its not terribly difficult to prove you guilty. If you were to challenge it successfully you'd need to build a preponderance of evidence (or shift the balance of proof as it is also called) that is greater then the sum of the invested authority of the individual officer. One can do this by acquiring maintenence records that show the police car's speedo was giving the officer problems, hadn't been calibrated correctly, or that the officer has little to no experience issuing traffic citations. It happens, just not with much regularity. |
One ticket shouldn't affect it too much I wouldn't think. What is her time worth - because she'll have to miss work to go to court, might lose and still have to pay the ticket and court costs, and pay increased insurance. If this is her first ticket tell her to look into a possible diversion. IE, she pays the ticket and keeps a clean driving record then it's wiped from her driving record. |
If she's smart she might not have to pay it. I got a speeding ticket once for speeding in a school zone (no I wasn't I would never sped in a school zone) I was driving 25 through the zone which was the limit, and it was about a half mile long. I passed an alley, and there was a motorcycle cop sitting there with his radar gun. I saw him, and he saw me, and we made eye contact. (basically we both knew we saw each other) anyhow when I got to the end school zone sign I began raising my rate of speed back up to the 35 moh. limit. I got to the end of the road, and before I knew it there he was pulling me over. long story short he told me I was doing 30 in a 25 school zone. I said politely no sir I started speeding up after the end of the zone. I took my ticket, and couldn't wait to go to court. During the court I asked the officer how far away from the sign he was, and about how far I was down the road when he clocked me. he said about a quarter mile. I then pulled out a picture of me standing about 20 feet past the end school zone sign taken by a freind in the same spot he was in the alley, and asked him if I was past the sign or in front of the sign. He said in fron of the sign. I then told him I was past the sign, and pulled out the next pic of me behind the pole on the sign at the same distance behind it. (to show the actual depth of field in the pic.) showed the pics to the judge. Case dismissed Mr. Kelley have a nice day. 
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Ding, ding...we have a winner here. |
There’s no real point in arguing it. “Speeding” tickets are a tax, nothing else. Outside of residential areas (where 25mph really is fast enough) speed limits are routinely set about 20mph below the speed a person can safely drive at. (Assuming good weather, decent equipment, and an unimpaired, attentive driver.) In fact, if someone drives the speed limit they will rapidly become bored and inattentive. This is when they truly become dangerous and likely to wreck. The posted speed limit is there for two reasons. First, it lets the police pull over anyone for speeding and write them a ticket. Politicians love money and this just gives them an easy source of revenue. Second, it lets the cops know who the real criminals are. The only way anyone will drive the posted limit is if they are escapees from the Alzheimer’s ward, if they are really drunk or stoned, or if they are hauling contraband. So her ticket is just a tax. Everyone gets one every so often. Just pay the fool thing and forget about it. |
Ooo that's really gotta piss them off. Do you have a dog? |
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A traffic ticket cannot be beaten in most cases just by showing up at the specified time on the ticket and trying to convince the judge that you are not guilty. This is almost a guaranteed loser. The way you win is you have to make your case cost the court so much money, they just dismiss it because there is no ROI in pursuing it. You do this by using the system against them. Most attorneys that specialize in traffic cases charge about $150 to handle a typical speeding ticket. The attorney will request a jury trial. By the time the case comes up for trial in 6 months to 3 years, it will likely be dismissed (70% chance according to my attorney). I am 3 for 3. If the case is not dismissed, then the attorney (included in the $150) will work a deal with the prosecutor for deferred adjudication (traffic probation). With deferred adjudication, you pay a small fine (usually less than the original fine)and if you don't get another ticket within the specified time (usually 1 month to 6 months), the ticket gets dropped. Here's a post I made a while ago discussing it (different user name then): Link |
Seeing that you're in TX, perhaps it works the same where you are, but generally around here you talk with the prosecutor before you go to the actual trial. They will schedule you several dates to show up in an effort to put a greater burden on you to not bother with defending yourself. If you talk to the prosecutor on the very first court date, he/she has the power to 'cut you a deal' so-to-speak. Say, "I'd rather save you (the gov) the expense and time of having to go to court over this, can we reach a compromise?" Say that you don't believe the ticket was entirely accurate and that you would like for it not to affect your insurance rates. Around here they can do deferred disposition with a reduced fine so you pay around half the original ticket price and if you do not get another ticket within 90 days it is dismissed and doesn't go on the record. |
one would have to subpoena those records prior to court. Also in Texas, departments and courts are getting very tough on officers appearing in traffic court. It is a myth today that officers are not likely to show up. since she was in Texas she should just plead no contest and ask to take defensive driving. That will preclude any conviction, no fine, and she will get a nice 10% discount on her auto insurance when she completes the course. |
I guess I'm missing something. What's wrong with asking how far the officer was from her when the pace started? |
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She just said that she was speeding.... not an great way to start her arguement. In this area it's better to arrange a deal. Many times the fine can be reduced or the points dropped instead of taking up the courts time. Some courts do this routinely and some would fine thier own grandmother for .25mph over the limit. Get a lawyer and get it delt with. Trying to pull a Perry Mason in some court room where the judge has the attention span of a gnat is probably not going to work out like the poster stories on beatyourticket.com. |
First of all, she admits to being guilty of speeding. Best not to raise that point in court>  Have her obtain the calibration records for the police vehicle. Obtain the tire tread depth taken when the vehicle was calibrated, next the tread depth when the offense occured. If there is a difference then how was that allowed for by the officer/dept. A tire that has less tread depth will read a higher speed than with a new tire. (Smaller diameter = smaller circumfrence = more rev's/mile = faster indicated speed). If the department can't provide this information, then do the calculations to show that the department may have calibrated the vehicle's speedometer using new, full tread tires while the ticket was written based on worn tires. (Know when the tires were replaced before you ask this question of the officer in court) Note that this approach will only buy you a few miles/hr so if she was blasting along at 20 over? 
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He didn't pace her, which is fallowing at the same speed to determine their speed. He simply, and rightfuly, observed that he is doing the speed limit or more, and she is gaining/passing on him. Therefor she is speeding. You can argue the actual cited speed, as its just a guess on his part. Your best bet would be to either plead down, or get a lawyer. |
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Fought a similar case once. The officer in the passenger seat would not support any testimony of the driving officer other than admitting to turning on the RADAR to verify their speed and what it was. End result, guilty, got the points, but fine and costs were only $25. Essentially, the judge would not say the officer lied, but minimized my expenses. I lost but I won. Hollow victory. |
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If you let yourself get into the position where you're in court arguing the case, you've already lost. Even if you win the case, you'll have to pay an attorney $1500+ to represent you in court. What idiot would pay $1500 to beat a $200 ticket? If you think you can win in court without an attorney, you are a fool. See my previous post for the tactics you need to use. |
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She admits t speeding, at least five over the limit when she was pulled over. Now, i don't know about your locations, but where I live, the law does not say posted limit is 45, but you can go over by five. I dont want to get in to whether the law is constitutional or not. I do want to say is that a group of people in the state, were elected by a group of people in the state to be legislators. They passed law. If you do not like the laws get them changed. I wonder what the reponses would be if the question was: A lady I work with was driving down the street when she saw someone wearing blue. She does not like blue so she ran him over. right after she was pulled over by a cop who witnessed the CRIME, and wants to know questions she should ask him in court to get the charge dismissed. If she feels that she was wrongfully accused, then by all means she should fight it. But by your comments she already admitted to breaking th LAW. You get caught speeding then pay the fine, unless there was 20 other cars around you, then fight it. But talking to guys that I ride with, who are motot cops, they say that with the LASER radar, there are no mistkaes. They hit you car with the LASER, and they know it is you. |
A few 32nds of tread depth MIGHT make a .1 MPH variance. Where do people get this? |
where exactly were you when this happened? You must have been in the car with the officer, otherwise how the hell do you know? |
Why would I pay $150, when I can pay 125 to attend the course, Same results. Same amount of time. so you can facotr in lost wages, since to go see the lawyer, go to court, go to court, adn got to court, you have paid over 150. |
Because I value my time for one. A drivers training class would have cost me about $130 total and taken 6+ hours of my time. This deal costs $150 total and less than 30 minutes of my time (all done through the mail - all you do is mail a check for $150 and a copy of the ticket to attorney). Also, I am not going to put up with the traffic ticket revenue scam that local govt perpetrates onto it's citizens. I hire a lawyer and fight every single ticket I get. |
Why do people insist on making absoulutely outrageous comparisons? Like it or not most of the sane world recognizes a difference in murder and speeding/parking violations. Judges don't treat it the same, police don't treat it the same, people don't treat it the same and the vast majority of the public doesn't obey it based on any interstate I have ever traveled. I can follow you right up to the murder analogy..... 
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I beat a traffic ticket once, simply by showing up. Court fee was $60 though, so they get some money. |
It's never taken more than 1hr of time from my life to dispose of a traffic ticket without points. It has disposed of some time in the form of income though. |