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Posted: 9/20/2001 7:21:09 AM EDT
I was watching a program the other day when they were interviewing people and asking them if pilots should be armed. Most said no because "they are not Police officers". HELLO, are Cops the only ones who know how to shoot? NO! So these guys are capable of learning how to fly complex multi-million dollar planes, but a pistol, that's too hard. Give me a break!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:25:10 AM EDT
"Stupid is as stupid does." I'm not really sure what that means, other than to say that there are ALOT of stupid people out there. I mean, think about it - If the pilot wants you dead, he can just pile drive the plane into the ground. Your life is already in his hands. What do you really have to lose???
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:33:32 AM EDT
This may be just me, but isn't the pilot's job, to fly the airplane?? I think they might have enough on their plate already. Pilots should be given more latitude, guidance, to keep the plane from being taken. Such as de-pressurizing, diving so anthing not seatbelted in is stuck to the ceiling. Sky-Marshalls or desiginated airline security personnel is probably a better idea.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:42:21 AM EDT
Actually, the pilot can do lots of things once in cruise. Defending his own life is high on his list of things to do. There is an old saying in transport flying, "Get your own ass safely on the ground and everyone seated behind you will follow." Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:44:48 AM EDT
My understanding is that there were 40,000 US flights a day prior to this. It would require an Army of Marshall's to be on every flight. But you could arm every pilot.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:47:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: My understanding is that there were 40,000 US flights a day prior to this. It would require an Army of Marshall's to be on every flight. But you could arm every pilot.
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Or, you could allow CWP persons to carry on the plane. USama Jr. would likely pipe down if he thought he'd have 5-6 guns pointed at his turban.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 7:50:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: My understanding is that there were 40,000 US flights a day prior to this. It would require an Army of Marshall's to be on every flight. But you could arm every pilot.
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Before 9.11.01 there were roughly 5,000 flights in the air in the continental US at any given time, but that's still a lot of sky marshalls, as well as a logistical nightmare. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:08:52 AM EDT
There's an interesting tidbit on http://www.coltautos.com about Colt Model M .32s and .380s that were "Issued" to American Airways (forerunner of American Airlines) and United Airlines pilots prior to WWII. The guns even had the airlines names on them much as are government marked pistols. Course, that was in the days before hijackings, wait, could there be a connection??? Hummm?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:18:09 AM EDT
[img]http://www.keepandbeararms.com/images/harder.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 8:21:14 AM EDT
Can there really be ANY question that an armed pilot / stewardess / passenger would have saved 5,000 + lives???? I thought the mantra was "If it saves only ONE life..."???
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:22:53 AM EDT
If Federal Aviation Regulation 108.11 allows airline personel to carry weapons on planes, then the only people stopping them must be the airlines themselves. Guess we should start pressuring them to do so. God Bless Texas
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:36:08 AM EDT
This is an idea whose time has come. Keep on it everybody, together we can make it happen.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 9:38:53 AM EDT
No prob. In fact, in cruise, I have time to put the plane into a dive, trap the sumbitch to the ceiling and go to work on a nice grouping...and probably finish my sandwich. The PA announcements will probably have to wait till after though...it's impolite to talk with my mouth full.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:06:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BillofRights: This is an idea whose time has come. Keep on it everybody, together we can make it happen.
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I'll 2nd that!!
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:14:04 AM EDT
The FAA is not even pretending to have an Air Marshall on every flight every day. Airlines have been saying for decades that flight crews are there for the safety of the flight...now they could actually prove it. How about not only could pilots be armed, but flight attendants could go through an FAA/FBI program to carry concealed?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:53:25 AM EDT
THIS DATA CURRENT AS OF THE FEDERAL REGISTER DATED SEPTEMBER 18, 2001 14 CFR - CHAPTER I - PART 108 View Part § 108.11 Carriage of weapons. (a) No certificate holder required to conduct screening under a security program may permit any person to have, nor may any person have, on or about his or her person or property, a deadly or dangerous weapon, either concealed or unconcealed, accessible to him or her while aboard an airplane for which screening is required unless: (1) The person having the weapon is -- (i) An official or employee of the United States, or a State or political subdivision of a State, or of a municipality who is authorized by his or her agency to have the weapon; or (ii) Authorized to have the weapon by the certificate holder and the Administrator and has successfully completed a course of training in the use of firearms acceptable to the Administrator. (2) The person having the weapon needs to have the weapon accessible in connection with the performance of his or her duty from the time he or she would otherwise check it in accordance with paragraph (d) of this section until the time it would be returned after deplaning. (3) The certificate holder is notified -- (i) Of the flight on which the armed person intends to have the weapon accessible to him or her at least 1 hour, or in an emergency as soon as practicable, before departure; and (ii) When the armed person is other than an employee or official of the United States, that there is a need for the weapon to be accessible to the armed person in connection with the performance of that person's duty from the time he or she would otherwise check it in accordance with paragraph (d) of this section until the time it would be returned to him or her after deplaning. (4) The armed person identifies himself or herself to the certificate holder by presenting credentials that include his or her clear, full-face picture, his or her signature, and the signature of the authorizing official of his or her service or the official seal of his or her service. A badge, shield, or similar may not be used as the sole means of identification.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 10:55:29 AM EDT
(5) The certificate holder -- (i) Ensures that the armed person is familiar with its procedures for carrying a deadly or dangerous weapon aboard its airplane before the time the person boards the airplane; (ii) Ensures that the identity of the armed person is known to each law enforcement officer and each employee of the certificate holder responsible for security during the boarding of the airplane; and (iii) Notifies the pilot in command, other appropriate crewmembers, and any other person authorized to have a weapon accessible to him or her aboard the airplane of the location of each authorized armed person aboard the airplane. (b) No person may, while on board an airplane operated by a certificate holder for which screening is not conducted, carry on or about that person a deadly or dangerous weapon, either concealed or unconcealed. This paragraph does not apply to -- (1) Officials or employees of a municipality or a State, or of the United States, who are authorized to carry arms; or (2) Crewmembers and other persons authorized by the certificate holder to carry arms. (c) No certificate holder may knowingly permit any person to transport, nor may any person transport or tender for transport, any explosive, incendiary or a loaded firearm in checked baggage aboard an airplane. For the purpose of this section, a loaded firearm means a firearm which has a live round of ammunition, cartridge, detonator, or powder in the chamber or in a clip, magazine, or cylinder inserted in it. (d) No certificate holder may knowingly permit any person to transport, nor may any person transport or tender for transport, any unloaded firearm in checked baggage aboard an airplane unless -- (1) The passenger declares to the certificate holder, either orally or in writing before checking the baggage, that any firearm carried in the baggage is unloaded; (2) The firearm is carried in a container the certificate holder considers appropriate for air transportation; (3) When the firearm is other than a shotgun, rifle, or other firearm normally fired from the shoulder position, the baggage in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger checking the baggage retains the key or combination; and (4) The baggage containing the firearm is carried in an area, other than the flightcrew compartment, that is inaccessible to passengers. (e) No certificate holder may serve any alcoholic beverage to a person having a deadly or dangerous weapon accessible to him or her nor may such person drink any alcoholic beverage while aboard an airplane operated by the certificate holder. (f) Paragraphs (a), (b), and (d) of this section do not apply to the carriage of firearms aboard air carrier flights conducted for the military forces of the Government of the United States when the total cabin load of the airplane is under exclusive use by those military forces if the following conditions are met: (1) No firearm is loaded and all bolts to such firearms are locked in the open position; and (2) The certificate holder is notified by the unit commander or officer in charge of the flight before boarding that weapons will be carried aboard the aircraft. [Doc. No. 108, 46 FR 3786, Jan. 15, 1981, as amended by Amdt. 108-4, 51 FR 1352, Jan. 10, 198
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:04:43 AM EDT
Put the bloody traitors out of business! [url]https://www.keepandbeararms.com/default.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:05:35 AM EDT
How about full bullet resistant cockpits with two security doors so that if the pilots lock it, nobody gets in, and the plane flies to its destination. Sure they can threaten to blow up the plane, but no negotiation and it wouldn't help them at all with their "mission" Ice
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:06:49 AM EDT
Or how about subsonic frangible rounds so they go in the terrorist but they don't come out? Ice
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:07:52 AM EDT
The following is from a Front Sight e-mail: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE September 19, 2001 CONTACT: Dr. Ignatius Piazza 1.800.987.7719 Fax: 831.684.2137 e-mail: info@frontsight.com http://www.frontsight.com WHICH AIRLINE WILL COMMAND AND CONTROL THE SKIES? Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Founder and Director of Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Las Vegas Nevada ...has offered to train commercial pilots and co-pilots FREE OF CHARGE from every commercial airline that allows the pilot and co-pilot to carry a gun on board to defend the cockpit. Piazza states, "All a commercial airline needs to do is call me and we can start training their pilots tomorrow-- free of charge." Says Piazza, "Front Sight knows the public overwhelmingly supports arming pilots because since our first press release of September 12, where we offered to train the pilots and co-pilots free of charge, we have been flooded with thousands of positive phone calls, letters, and e-mail from pilots, gun owners, and the public. 99.9% positive response to arm and train pilots. I personally hope American or United make the first move as it would demonstrate a will to turn the tables on terrorists and take back control of the skies." Aaron Benedetti, a United Airlines co-pilot and Platinum member of Front Sight's Firearms Training Resort in Las Vegas agrees. "The fear of the American people is real. Air travel is down, way down and may never recover if we continue disarming passengers and pilots," says Benedetti. "Airlines are laying off people by the thousands. Most people do not know that Federal Aviation Regulation 108.11 currently allows airlines to arm their personnel with handguns. I hope United is the first to do so. United could once again claim they fly the friendly skies and overnight, corner the market on armed flights. I fully support arming pilots and co-pilots...." Mark Donovan, a Southwest Captain and Bronze member of Front Sight's Firearms Institute hopes that SouthWest is the first to lead the way. Donovan states, "SouthWest clearly dominates their market at this time and is rated #1 in customer service, but an upstart airline or one of our competitors could steal that away in a heartbeat with a single press release and rotation of their pilots through Front Sight's training courses. FAR 108.11 allows SouthWest to authorize it's pilots to carry a handgun on board to protect their cockpits. All it takes is the airline to make the decision. SouthWest prides itself on Positively Outrageous Service. What could be better service than to insure our passengers safety with an armed and trained pilot?" (continued)
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:11:18 AM EDT
Lieutenant Bob Redmond, SWAT Commander of Nye County Sheriff's Department concurs that Front Sight's training is exactly what the commercial airliners need and that they should immediately begin sending their pilots to Front Sight. Redmond, who sends his SWAT officers to Front Sight for firearms and tactical training states, "Front Sight's training exceeds levels offered by most if not all law enforcement agencies throughout the country. Front Sight's training is so good that I want every officer we have in the department to attend every course Front Sight offers. If airlines sent their pilots to Front Sight, it would be like having SWAT officers in the sky." Paul Nelson, an American Airlines Co-pilot and reserve police officer for the city of Pasadena believes that in order to restore the confidence of the American public, strong and necessary steps must be immediately taken to empower pilots as the last line of defense of passengers and aircraft. Nelson emphatically states, "Front Sight and FAR 108.11 provide American Airlines with an easily initiated and meaningful step to regain passenger confidence in our airline. If we do not take this step, I fear that the public will never return to the skies as they once did." Nelson continues, "American Airlines has a distinct opportunity to turn this tragedy into triumph and make our domestic skies the safest in the world. As soon as the executives at American give the word, I am going to Front Sight! God bless them." Yeah, some of it smacks of sales hype, but at least it makes sense when you get down to the heart of it.
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:52:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas: If Federal Aviation Regulation 108.11 allows airline personel to carry weapons on planes, then the only people stopping them must be the airlines themselves. Guess we should start pressuring them to do so. God Bless Texas
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I believe this is 100% correct. It is the airlines who are against it. It's an expensive program, requiring highly trained individuals skilled in both weapons and hand-to-hand combat in confined spaces. But I wouldn't mind paying an extra $20 per ticket, would you?
Link Posted: 9/20/2001 11:55:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeoffM24: My understanding is that there were 40,000 US flights a day prior to this. It would require an Army of Marshall's to be on every flight. But you could arm every pilot.
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AND EVERY PASSENGER WHO HAS A CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT.....
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 11:36:20 PM EDT
Mattja, Actually, I believe the airlines are against it, because of liability issues. The training cost should be fairly low. More on the order of . 50 cents per ticket. Especially if the program were voluntary. Everyone, please do what you can to stir up interest in this debate Nationwide. The current focus on screening is a start, but just not enough. We need to make sure the terrorist KNOW that a similar attack will not succeed.
Link Posted: 9/21/2001 11:45:27 PM EDT
How about "firearms friendly" flights and "firearms free" flights. The airlines could paint "This Aircraft is Firearms Free" on the side of the aircraft. Wonder which aircraft will be hijacked first. [X]
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 4:04:42 AM EDT
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=54212[/url]
Link Posted: 9/22/2001 4:45:19 AM EDT
My wife came to pick me up at the airport and forgot to take her CCW out of my daughter's diaper bag when going through the checkpoint. They detained her while doing a brief background check. They let her go, but kept the firearm. We got the "notice of violation" from the FAA the day of the attacks. Here are the two violation types depending on whether you are a passenger or non-passenger: [b]Passenger[/b] 49 U.S.C. 46303 prohibits persons from having on or about their persons or accessible property a concealed deadly or dangerous weapon while aboard or attempting to board any aircraft in or intended for operation in interstate or intrastate air transportation; [b]Passenger or Non-Passenger[/b] Section 107.21(a) of the FAR, 14 C.F.R. 107.21(a), provides that no person may have a deadly or dangerous weapon on or about the individual's person or accessible property when performance has begun of the inspection of the individual's person or accessible property before entering a sterile area, and when entering or in a sterile area. It looks like there's more than just the airlines keeping law-abiding citizens from carrying on flights. Black Fox
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