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Posted: 9/12/2001 1:20:58 AM EDT
To bad all the "Bad-Ass" hatemongers won't be able to rationaly understand this, but it does need to be read. Sorry if the format is off. The Unknown Enemy by Joseph Sobran It was predictable. For years I’ve been writing that the U.S. Government has been making more enemies than Americans really need, all over the globe, and that one of these days some of them would have a nasty surprise for us. In fact it nearly happened a few years ago, when Islamic radicals tried to blow up the World Trade Center. But of course they made a botch of it and got caught. This time, though, someone pulled off what must have been an extremely cunning conspiracy, a criminal feat for the ages. They managed to execute a secret plan calling for four simultaneous hijackings of airplanes. Those who committed these coordinated deeds – in spite of all security measures – also had the determination to die in hitting their targets. This wasn’t "terrorism." This was war. It wasn’t a random attempt to scare people with an arbitrary atrocity, like the bombing of a pizza joint; it was a serious attempt to kill as many people and do as much material damage as possible at two strategic targets, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. But, as I write, hours after the attacks, we don’t know who is at war with us. We may never know. Who has reason to hate this country? Only a few hundred million people – Arabs, Muslims, Serbs, and numerous others whose countries have been hit by U.S. bombers. Imagine hating a country so much that you were willing to cross an ocean and carry out an elaborate revenge against its people, killing yourself in the process. This is something far more than the sort of ideological anti-Americanism that leads student mobs to throw stones at U.S. embassies abroad; that’s kid stuff. This is an obsessive, fanatical, soul-consuming hatred. Foreigners aren’t quite real to Americans, and most Americans are unaware of how profoundly their government antagonizes much of the human race. We are easy-going people who generally have no idea how bullying we seem to foreigners. Until now, we have had no experience of what the U.S. Government has so often inflicted on others. Now, at least, we have an inkling of what it feels like. Government spokesmen have responded with their usual cant of "cowardly attacks" by "terrorists" who "hate democracy and freedom." Rubbish. A fanatic who is ready to die is the opposite of a coward, and nobody can "hate" such abstractions as "democracy and freedom" with that kind of intensity. It’s dangerous to belittle your enemy, especially when his courage and cunning have already proved as formidable as his hatred and cruelty. The first question you should ask about your enemy is why he is your enemy in the first place.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 1:21:54 AM EDT
Continued... You may be deluding and flattering yourself if you assume he hates you for your virtues. But our "leaders" assure us that our enemies are unnaturally evil people who hate us only because we are so wonderful. And they manage to utter this nonsense with an air of tough-minded realism. True realism, on the other hand, doesn’t mean blaming Americans for bringing these horrifying and truly evil acts on themselves. It does mean trying to imagine alien perspectives from which our government’s conduct might appear so intolerable that some people might be driven to take atrocious revenge. "To understand all is to forgive all," says the French aphorism. Not true. But understanding all can at least teach you how to avoid making enemies, and avoiding making enemies is the best defense – better than a $300 billion "defense" budget that didn’t defend the World Trade Center. The great director Jean Renoir was once asked why there were no villains in his films. He answered simply: "Everyone has his reasons." Your bitterest enemy may have his reasons for hating your guts. You may not think they are good or sufficient reasons, but you’d better take them into account. If he has any brains, he may find a way to hurt you. The United States is now a global empire that wants to think of itself as a universal benefactor, and is nonplussed when foreigners don’t see it that way. None of the earlier empires of this world, as far as I know, shared this delusion; the Romans, the Mongols, the British, the Russians and Soviets didn’t expect to rule and to be loved at the same time. Why do we? September 12, 2001 Copyright (c) 2001 by Griffin Internet Syndicate. All rights reserved.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 2:05:42 AM EDT
Joseph Sobran Has some valid points, but they are poorly timed and inappropriate. I grit my teeth in order not to lash out.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 2:08:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Magic: Joseph Sobran Has some valid points, but they are poorly timed and inappropriate. I grit my teeth in order not to lash out.
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Odd that you should say that. He and many others have been warning us for years about this kind of backlash. We reap what we sow. Wrath kinda sucks when you are on the recieving end. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 2:14:29 AM EDT
You and yours have a right to your opinion. There is a time and place to have this type of discussion and this is not it.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 2:23:07 AM EDT
Thanks Magic ! This is DEFINITELY NOT THE TIME FOR THIS type of post. Please show some respect and deference to those who are suffering right now.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 4:27:20 AM EDT
"The United States is now a global empire that wants to think of itself as a universal benefactor, and is nonplussed when foreigners don’t see it that way" It is impossible to please everybody. Especially terrorist(and the French).
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 10:36:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARChoo: "The United States is now a global empire that wants to think of itself as a universal benefactor, and is nonplussed when foreigners don't see it that way" It is impossible to please everybody. Especially terrorist(and the French).
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Especially when you are so busy bombing them (the Serbs and Iraqis), disarming them (the Haitians and Somalis) or simply raping them (the Japanese on Okinawa and everywhere else our "fighting" men are stationed) But I digress they were all just asking for it right? We have to do our duty right? Pissing on the backs of multitudes of people (often on a daily basis) and telling them that it is merely raining sounds like pretty crappy policy to me. Heck you might even irritate someone enough to use harsh language in your general direction. Ouch! Lets just keep up the arrogance and keep piling up the bodies, it goes hand in hand you know. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:09:45 AM EDT
Invictus, Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. These terrorists have it in for us not because of our actions. Rather it's because of our religion. Or, if you'd like, our non-Muslim status. Sure, American can be the most arrogant, sometimes bullying, people on the earth (the French notwithstanding). No one can argue that. I would, however, like to point out that we've also given the world more than it can ever hope to repay, if we asked it. I don't see these "freedom fighters" eschewing the benefits of American technology or pharmaceuticals or manufacturing. When was the last time a terrorist developed a vaccine or a new food crop or anything that had a direct benefit for anyone. It's like the old biker saying, "When I do good, no-one remembers. When I do bad no-one forgets". The reason they hate is because it's easy, and we're a prominent target. Let's not lose sight of that. They certainly won't.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:51:44 AM EDT
IF the perpetrators of these attacks are acting from the hate that consumes many of the most radical Muslim fundamentalists, this is only partially based on the geopolitical acts of the U.S. The United States is the driving engine turning the world into a secular society. Our media, popular culture, political structure and economic system all exist independently of religion. In fact, we overtly reject any connection between church and state. Furthermore, we hold out this system to be the MOST moral and humane structuring of society and urge everyone else to emulate us. Add to this the insidious and overwhelming affect American mass media has on the Third World, and you have the perfect climate for hatred. This is all speculation, but I don’t think that we can scare them into peace, nor do I think that we can reason with them. Unfortunately, I believe that the only recourse we have with these fanatics is overwhelming force. We need to help them die for their cause, as quickly as possible.
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 11:58:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan: Invictus, Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. These terrorists have it in for us not because of our actions. Rather it's because of our religion. Or, if you'd like, our non-Muslim status. Sure, American can be the most arrogant, sometimes bullying, people on the earth (the French notwithstanding). No one can argue that. I would, however, like to point out that we've also given the world more than it can ever hope to repay, if we asked it. I don't see these "freedom fighters" eschewing the benefits of American technology or pharmaceuticals or manufacturing. When was the last time a terrorist developed a vaccine or a new food crop or anything that had a direct benefit for anyone. It's like the old biker saying, "When I do good, no-one remembers. When I do bad no-one forgets". The reason they hate is because it's easy, and we're a prominent target. Let's not lose sight of that. They certainly won't.
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Fatman, I would be the last person to piss in your general direction. I say the following without intent to offend. I merely disagree. Much of what you have said is incorrect. Have you ever spoken to someone who is of Arab descent? If you would talk to them you would find out that somewhere between 15-20% of them are Christian themselves, not 100% Muslim. If they so blindly hate Christians you would think that they would start with the joker next door. Of course it isn't like that. Even in pre-Shaw Iran and pre war Yugoslavia having mixed peaceful Muslim/Christian/Jew communities wasn't that uncommon. Don't let those with a violent agenda stir up hate within your heart. You are living some kind of a dream if you think we have never done anything to victimize other peoples. Please wake up, the United States is so full of good people, we really need to change the "leadership", they are the ones who are gonna get "us" killed! It is one thing to voluntarily buy American technology or medicines, freedom of choice. It is entirely different when something is rammed down the throats of millions without easy recourse. That is the point at which shit tends to start, it may take decades to boil over but it was in the making for quite a while. Just remember all it takes is one "Aw Shit" to destroy a thousand "At-a-boy's" It has and will always be that way. rDAm
Link Posted: 9/12/2001 12:08:26 PM EDT
Fatman, I would be the last person to piss in your general direction. I say the following without intent to offend. I merely disagree. Much of what you have said is incorrect. Have you ever spoken to someone who is of Arab descent? If you would talk to them you would find out that somewhere between 15-20% of them are Christian themselves, not 100% Muslim. If they so blindly hate Christians you would think that they would start with the joker next door. Of course it isn't like that. Even in pre-Shaw Iran and pre war Yugoslavia having mixed peaceful Muslim/Christian/Jew communities wasn't that uncommon. Don't let those with a violent agenda stir up hate within your heart. You are living some kind of a dream if you think we have never done anything to victimize other peoples. Please wake up, the United States is so full of good people, we really need to change the "leadership", they are the ones who are gonna get "us" killed! It is one thing to voluntarily buy American technology or medicines, freedom of choice. It is entirely different when something is rammed down the throats of millions without easy recourse. That is the point at which shit tends to start, it may take decades to boil over but it was in the making for quite a while. Just remember all it takes is one "Aw Shit" to destroy a thousand "At-a-boy's" It has and will always be that way. rDAm
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Invictus, Re-read your quote of me. I never said, nor do I believe that we have never "victimized" anyone. I conceded that. As far as having our "gifts" rammed down people's throats, would you please refer me to the source that shows us (the United States) vaccinating people at gunpoint. Or detaining people until they agree to eat the food we sent. If this is a "Holy War" as I believe it has been proclaimed, then they percieve their enemies as non-Muslim. Who's the most ecomomically successful non-Muslim country? Look out the window.
Link Posted: 9/13/2001 9:37:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan: Invictus, Re-read your quote of me. I never said, nor do I believe that we have never "victimized" anyone. I conceded that. As far as having our "gifts" rammed down people's throats, would you please refer me to the source that shows us (the United States) vaccinating people at gunpoint. Or detaining people until they agree to eat the food we sent. If this is a "Holy War" as I believe it has been proclaimed, then they percieve their enemies as non-Muslim. Who's the most ecomomically successful non-Muslim country? Look out the window.
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Fatman, Sorry for not being clear, I meant having non-gifts forced upon unwilling people, like our military presence in many parts of the globe, all it does for a lot of locals is to cause hate and discontent. I think your holy war scenario is full of holes you still haven't explained why there is such a large percentage of Christian Arabs. If they had such a hate for all things Christian why would there still be any? Find someone from Egypt, Lebanon or Israel and ask them about the Coptic Church. I am somewhat surprised that you as a Christian are not more familiar with it and the amount of Catholic, as well as Evangelical Arabs there are in the Mid-East. Who says we should consider the words of a relative few maniacs as representative of the whole Islamic faith? To do so would be as ridiculous to judge all of Christianity on the Spanish Inquisition. Aren't you just a little curious as to why you don't hear "Most" Muslims calling for Jihad? The ones you do hear from are predominantly are in the vicinity of Israel. "Most" Muslims live in Asia. There are more Muslims in Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, and India than all of the Mid-East/Persian Gulf. Of course they weren't driven away from their homes back in the '40's, with mostly English and American support. I bet that has something to do with the fact they have a case of the ass at us! Please re-read the article, it is really worth another look. Mr. Sobran (a God fearing man) articulates the situation damn well. Please try a little more introspection, the cause of the cycle of hate isn't merely "I hate you 'cuz you are different". That is linear, what we are seeing is a cycle. Lets help stop it with peace and understanding, not hate and violence. rDAm
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