Posted: 8/4/2006 5:50:52 PM EDT
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Can anybody explain to me why it should be abolished? |
Yup, double minimum wage and double the cost of your fast food etc... I' mean its not rocket science. That burger or whatever at wendys in terms of raw materials and whatnot is like 50c worth of food. You pay 5 bucks cuz the guy needs to pay the rent, his franchise fee, and his help. The majority of that being workers. The same can be said for any industry using cheap labor. And of course all wages will eventually go up to compensate. Net result = nothing. (save for the govt getting a bit more in taxes perhaps, then again the money is worth less) |
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Figure the wages at a fast food joint are 20% of expenditure. What happens when you raise the minimum wage by 50%? Wages are now 30%. To maintain the same profit margins, the $5 combo you were buying goes up to about 5.25 At least that's how I see it. But I am teh suck at math. |
I disagree that the net result will be nothing. In fact people on the lower end of the income spectrum could lose jobs. Companies will be forced to do more with fewer people or find ways to automate those tasks. And middle class families will NOT automatically receive wage increases to keep up with inflation. The Socialist minded RINOS ought to keep their vote hungry fingers out of the economy! That's my 2 cents. YMMV -yj |
Because it's artificial price fixing. You want the Government telling you the minimum you have to pay for milk and bread? eta: With that said, I'm not looking for the minimum wage to be abolished. Nor do I think that that is a political possibility. I just want the Guberment out of my life as much as possible. 
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Wendy's could make the .99 cent menu bigger that way. The market would price the wages for certain jobs. Perhaps (accurately) running a cash register is worth $6 per hour, a regular fast food register drone is worth $4.50 an hour, and a bagger at the grocery store is only worth $3 per hour. The middle class could more easily afford the trappings of the 'rich' because labor would be cheaper for some things like shoe shines, cooking, maids, etc. No-skill work would be priced cheaper, meaning more people could afford it. It is not uncommon for middle class families in Thailand and etc to have maids. Farmers could afford to hire more lettuce pickers and tobacco primers (in some cases, in many cases around here they make more than minimum wage anyway because no one will do it for min wage, the market works!). |
I'll be glad to. Our country was designed to be a capitalist system. Capitlism is based on a free market. Liberty is defined as being free from restriction or control. The promise of a minimum wage is socialist security at the expense of economic liberty. In 1755 (Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, Tue, Nov 11, 1755), Benjamin Franklin wrote: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." The government does not know better than a free market. |
I'm not for "unrestrained" capitalism. Everyone must be held to an ethical standard. However, if you've looked at socialist economies you can see the eventual outcome of "progressive" thinking. Look at France for example. France has some of the most protective laws for workers. But a few years ago unemployment was so high among young people that riots were taking place in the streets and the government was thinking of shorting the work week!!!  -yj |
yeah, wouldn't want cause and effect and economics factoring into the situation. Just feeling is enough. http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4639
if minimum wage is so good (because it helps people afford food and clothes and houses and cell phones and playstations) why don't we just set maximum prices as well? That would help everyone! You want a steak, you shouldn't have to pay more than $3 for it! That is just as stupid as minimum wage laws, but most people can't grasp that. |
YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!! I'M NOT HYSTERICAL!!!  j/k  eta: The reason we sound hysterical is because we know that this is an important issue. This is about Freedom and about everyone's future. Is the United States going to become more Socialist (Nanny State) or move back to our origins: individual freedom and responsibility. Even Jesus said "You will always have the poor among you." In other words you can't help everyone. People rarely if ever appreciate hand-outs. In fact it often has the opposite effect. Raising the minimum wage will: fuel inflation remove incentive to better one's self cause unemployment to increase force more American jobs overseas force more small businesses out of business. |
| Somebody show me where the government has the authority to regulate wages. If you don't like how much you make when you are 16, finish your education and get a real job. Minimum wage jobs are starter jobs for kids and a step you take to kick start your career. Most of us had those types of jobs when we were kids, but they were never intended to be a life long employment. |
The latter comment was not so much in response to this thread as the general hysterics certain members go into whenever economics comes up. Make any kind of comment about how pure capitalism isnt ideal and you get 50-60 people calling you a socialist. It's the exact same type of behaviour people at DU exhibit when someone doesnt fall in line with their beliefs. DO NOT QUESTION THE STATUS QUO! That's all I was saying. |
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You know what would piss me off? If I started at minimum wage, worked at the job for a year or so and got a raise, then they raise the minimum wage to equal my current pay, then some jackoff off the street gets a job paying minimum wage which would happen to be the same amount that I worked for a year to earn. Minimum wage is nothing more than buying votes from the lower class, but functionally does nothing but keep them the lower class. "I work minimum wage, since I have no seniority, when the wage is raised, I get layed off. I then have to get a new job. Sure I'm making more than I did before, but I'll probably just lose my job again when it gets raised again. I never work in the same job for long enough to work up the ladder, do I'm perpetually stuck in an entry level job." Look, labor is a commodity, just like produce. No one thinks it's a good idea to pay $5 for a head of lettuce that's only worth $3 simply because the store has to make money to stay in business. But it's the same thing as saying "It doesn't matter how much the labor is worth, you WILL pay them such and such because we say you will." Shit, all you have to do is ask a minimum wage supporter if it should be raised to $10. Why not $20? I mean if the point is to provide everyone with a decent income, then $20 ought to be a good start? Then when all the goods and services double in price to allow employers to pay the wages, the minimum wage types will start crying that it needs to be raised to $30. And the cycle begins anew. I've got a better idea, how about we initiate price controls on food, and gas, and everything else necessary for modern life. Then everyone will be ok. Well, not really since there still won't be enough to go around. But in the magic land of Liberalia, everyone will be happy since the greedy capitalists have been driven out, especially those in charge who are more equal than others... Minimum wage is bullshit. Always has been always will be. |
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I have worked for below, at, and above the minimum wage. I should be permitted to be paid what my employer and I agree that I am worth to him. I also should be permitted to pay my employees what we both agree they are worth. This may be more or less than a figure set by the government. The government sets a wage amount, not taking into consideration that there are differences in areas, and peoples work ethics, intelligence, Etc... When I was young, I was not worth the minimum wage to my employer. If he had to pay it to me I would not have had the job. The job which allowed me to learn how to work without supervision. The job which taught me how to work hard. The job that allowed me to start saving for my education. The next summer I worked for him starting at minimum wage. Now the job I was doing with the experience I had was worth that to him. The next summer I worked for him also. He started me at above the minimum wage. I was worth it to him. If he would not have allowed me to gain the experience I received from him, I would have lost out on three summers worth of jobs, and the responsibilities and abilities I learned from working for him. If he had to pay me the minimum wage, He could not have hired me except with a loss to him. I consider him an ethical man, He insisted my hours be on the books for taxes. I simply worked 2 hours and recorded one. Some people may have a problem with that. I however do not. If you have a problem with that, may I ask why? It did not effect you. PS: over 7 years ago, and he is dead IRS. |
I must say I used that term begrudgingly. I severely dislike using the "class" distinctions. I believe it shows contempt for others, both up and down the ladder. It is also a tool used by socialists and their ilk to provoke people into falling for their corrupt agenda. The US should never have a class distinction, and I try my best to treat everyone equally regardless of their lot in life. I will never look down on someone who works hard but earns little unless I see a waste of potential. I will also not have contempt for the wealthy, provided that they worked hard and earned that money properly. All bets are off if the persons are assholes. 
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yup that part in red is pissing me off i just got my raise up to 6.50 an hour. and north carolina just had a law pass that says as of january 2007 minimum wage will be 6.15 wtf.glad the state is doing it. the old saying goes congress and the senate can go f*** off they dont want to raise minimum wage. the states by them selves will. thas ok by then i hope to be making 7 to 7.50 an hour. |
Exactly, sort of. Except you see the flip side of this is economics is not based on "I had this job when I was 16...", it is a science, half social voodoo and half math, that people sit around and theorize about. I could easily see the opposite side of what you say: in a market where employers have less buying power than workers have selling power (buying and selling labour that is), the technical term is a monopsy, that a certain amount of minimum wage actually would increase employment by correcting the imbalance.  Now a market where the employers have the monopsy, could actually kill an economy because the employers could hire a worker of any skill for as little as they liked. Which would cause catastrophic deflation. All I'm saying is there is no good answer in general. The current Federal increase in minimum wage is INSANE imo though. Just completely fucking stupid. Yay, we got rid of death taxes, but the bad news is that inflation is UP! |
Where is the money going to come from ? Employers are not all rich either. There shouldn't be a mininum wage at all, it is socialism. In a truly capitalist society you would paid whatever you and the employer could argee too. What you are really worth. I think in most cases it would be near the mininum wage or higher. How many of you would work for $1 or $2 an hour? Not many I'd bet. The market would probably settle and doubt there would be any jobs for under $4. Its possible inflation would go down too, although I don't really know. Supporting a higher mininum wage, is no different than socialized medicine or welfare. That said I am not an employer nor I do make a lot of money. I am a conservative, and believe in limited government and capitalism. Ever wonder why America has had so many inventions and done so many wonderful things for the world with technology and new ideas? Its from capitalism. |
Not agreeing with FieroLoki here, but there are some points... Minimum wage has been around since before socialism was thought of. The first examples being trade guilds setting standard prices in the 16th century. America has never had unrestrained capitalism. Trust busting with Theodore Roosevelt for example. A lot of our major advancements in the 20th century have been from government funded projects (tax funded) that were later launched into the free market. Computers, the internet, etc. |
Agreed, but often the term is appropriate. When I say "lower class", I refer to somebody who makes low wage because of low ambition and work ethic - somebody whose vote can be bought because he is already morally corrupt. |
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Because if your labor is only worth $6.00 per hour you can't force someone to pay $7.00. They just won't hire you instead. Which means no job, no income, no productivity, no taxes paid and one more person sucking the tit of .gov. But that is just one more reason democraps LOVE the min wage. They are just price controls on labor. Price controls don't work and never will. Would you like it if the .gov said wheat farmers don't make enough so bread will now be $5.00 a loaf? That is exactly what you are telling to employers. |
I believe you are more educated than me, however I am not convinced yet. The second and third paragraphs leave me confused. If there are less jobs than willing workers (the advantage being to the employer) I understand that the employer will use his leverage in hiring or firing employees to maximize his profit. However my advantage is in proving myself a profitable employee to him. So much so, that he will be concerned that if he will be at a competitive disadvantage if he does not pay me enough to keep me from going to work for his competition. I work for a living. I earn my employer more than I cost him. We both know this. What advantage is there to him if I no longer am willing to work for him and choose to work for his competitor. We both know that I will earn his competitor more money than I will cost his competitor. Even worse for him, is he may loose market share if he cannot find, teach, and employ a suitable replacement. Why should he put himself through all of this hassle when he can simply allow me a little more of what I am making him (and giving me even more incentive to work even harder for him). If I ever cost my employer more than I make him, I should be fired so that he can hire another person and give them a chance to make him more profit. We both know this. It gives me incentive to work harder and more efficiently. That creates additional profit for my employer, gives me job security, and may earn me a raise (since I am now worth it to him). I don't think the government should interferer with a private contract between a employee and their employer. I see no reason for a minimum wage except to give government another chance to stick their hand into some ones pocket, and to remind the successful (employers) people that they are under government control. |
that is the fucking dumbest thing I have ever heard, it is a proven, documented fact that any state that has already raised the minimum wage, has had an improvement in the overall "quality" of their local economy; you'd be singing a different tune if you didn't have what you had! |
That doesn't work, because every business isn't just going to magically lower prices just because the populous is making less money? It still costs them the same amount to produce their product, is your mind fucking republifucked? |
I can tell you don't really know, anyone that has ever taken an economics class can tell that you don't know, so why post about it? |
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I'm currently earning a piddly sub 7 bucks an hour, I don't remember exactly how much exactly though. It's not all that important being so low anyway. As long as Uncle Sam comes through on the 1st of the month I'm happy. As a side note Books a Million payroll goofed and double payed most of us at work. When I just checked my account online a few minutes ago it actually showed 4 deposits on the 4th, I'm thinking they are trying to take the money back out of my account and not doing it right, LOL. I was joking with one of the managers earlier and told him maybe I should quit while I was ahead. One idiot at work spent the money and is not happy that taking the money back will put her account into negative balance.
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I screwed up what I said in any case. Don't drink and post kids I meant: If there are less jobs than willing workers, that is a market where the employers have the buying advantage. There are many sellers (the workers) but few buyers (the employers). Therefore the buyers (employers) can set the market price (wages) by affecting the quanity of labour purchased. If it went on long enough the employers could possibly underprice themselves out of existence. And: If there are more jobs than willing workers, that is where workers have a selling advantage. The workers on the whole can set a price artificially high for their skills. Pricing themselves out of a job. It is a little more complicated than that though... It's 0330 dude  Individual people and their work ethics dont really come into play in this. Also it never happens to a market on the WHOLE. It's usually one set of people with a specific skillset. It also doesnt take into account continuing actions, it's rather like a snapshot. They can be solved by setting a minimum wage, but I cant show it without doing math. On the whole minimum wage for an entire market, is not a good thing. Applied in certain areas at certain times, it can correct imbalances before anything TOO bad happens. Also the last part, Article I, Section 8, Clause 3, "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." They are well within their legal ability to do it, whether or not it's a good idea... Wel... |
when I was working at a car wash making minium wage I dindt pay any taxes beyong social security and medicare which i belive everyone pays no matter what. |
Two reasons: 1--the cost of many lower-priced items is largely dependent upon the cost of labor involved in making and distributing them. Raising minimum wage doesn't helplower-income people because much of the cost of things they buy the most also goes up as well. Ever noticed that fast-food joint prices have gone up, roughly trailing minimum wages? Do you think that congress raised minimum wages because McDonald's was making too much profits on their cheeseburgers? OR did McDonald's have to raise their prices because the gov't said they had to pay the same workers, doing the same amount of work, even more money? 2--mostly what raising minimum wages does is push people into higher tax brackets. The lowest jobs' pay is based on the minimum requirement, and all higher jobs tend to be valued in terms of "multiples" of the lower-paying jobs. But in the US, tax rates aren't flat. So every time minimum wages are raised, soon after, businesses start raising their enmployees' pay--but some of those employees are at the top of one tax bracket, and they get pushed into the bottom end of the next-higher bracket. .....While the cost of many lower-priced items increases as well. ~ |
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Well, it is unconstitutional for one. But then I guess the constitution is just a bunch of old paper that is irrelevant today, especially that pesky bill of rights that keeps the all-knowing elites from doing what is best for us lowly plebes. It's also a socialist intervention into the free market that ultimately causes more problems then it solves. I don't get all the whining about people not being able to support themselves on minimum wage. You're not supposed to be! I haven't made minimum wage since high school, and even then I quickly earned a raise. I've worked quite a few low-end jobs, and always made more then the minimum wage. You have to show just a little initiative if you want to be able to live on your own. |
Actually: 1) It costs them LESS to produce their product, as most of the cost of MOST products is LABOR 2) Competition controls prices. That's why prices change. Lower prices generally mean more sales, and the price will settle at the appropriate point of profitability. That's how the system works - competitors will keep undercutting eachother untill the market sets the 'right' price... Minimum wage increases may 'show' a percieved increase in QOL, but that is at a local level. If it is done nationwide, it becomes meaningless as the market automatically corrects for the 'increase' thru inflation and job market contraction. |
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Fuck minimum wage. Its bull shit. People bitch about not getting paid enough for the job that is only worth 5.15 an hour? There are plenty of jobs out there that pay enough, people just are not willing to do them. You can roughneck for 26 bucks an hour with no education whatsoever. Nobody wants to do it though. so they bitch and whine till minimum wage is raised so they can sweep the floor of McDonalds for 10 bucks an hour. FUCK THAT. 
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OH my gawd, to have the cost of housing at 96' levels! I think I could buy 3 of them. Id think I died and went to heaven. |
Why? so we can just run inflation up even more? Go ahead. Raise Minimum wage. Just don't bitch when you are buying McDonald's regular hamburgers for 5 bucks a pop. Fuck that shit. |