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Posted: 8/27/2001 6:39:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 7:14:08 PM EDT
The MP5 is tactically better for the following reasons: 1. Close bolt that allows for more accurate placement of shots and better control during full auto firing. 2. The stocks can be changed very easily to any configuration available. 3. The delayed roller block reduces felt recoil. 4. Mags can be clamped together for faster reloads. Mag changes are faster compared to an UZI. 5. Trigger groups can be changed. 6. Clearer sight picture.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 7:18:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 7:18:26 PM EDT
I have both. My ultimate preference is for my MP5. Advantages of MP5: 1. Better feel. Not as heavy as the UZI and better balanced. Depending upon configuration a much better weapon platform for moving and shooting. 2. Faster mag changes. The UZI is not bad, but the MP5 is faster. 3. Better first shot placement, especially in semi. One of the main advantages. 4. Incredible platform, many configurations possible from same weapon. Advantages of the UZI. 1. Slower cycle rate. 600rpms compared to 800rpms. However experienced MP5 users can fire disciplened 3 rd bursts everytime. 2. Cheaper and parts are more plentiful. Especially magazines. 3. Durable. Not that the MP5 isn't, but the UZI probably would ultimately win a drop and fire contest. All things being equal I would choose the MP5 everytime. Even given the fact that all things are not equal, I would still opt for the MP5 despite the 3:1 price ratio. That said I would not feel under gunned with an UZI.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 7:19:14 PM EDT
If there is only 2 to choose from MP5 handsdown. UZI is a brick.... and Nathaniel pretty much listed the rest.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 7:29:42 PM EDT
i would say MP5 for about every reason the two are diffrent. the uzi is quite uncomfortable at first and the stock is a bit odd for someone used to more conventional guns. all that being said, ifi was to buy one, i would buy the uzi, i just find it cooler, and a class 3 uzi is less than a semi hk94. i think the uzi us just fun.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 8:24:47 PM EDT
There is a difference between a person shooting a machine gun and a machingunner shooting a machine gun. HK good points, Light weight. Fine shooter in semi auto. First shot his are good because of closed bolt. Bad points. Awkward to shoot for a left handed shooter with the cocking piece on the left side. Gun will break if shooting hot loaded Submachine gun ammo or heavy loaded subsonic. bullets. The SD version sucks so much velocity from the bullet that you might as well shoot a .380. Caliber change is gonna cost you many hundreds of dollars. The stupid fluted barrel ruins brass for reloaders. Good points of the UZI. Will group tighter than MP5 on sustained full auto fire. The heavy bolt will keep the barrel down and on target. Left handed friendly. Quick barrel and caliber change. Bulge an HK barrel and you gonna be around $500 to repair. You can have your UZI in 9mm/45acp/41AE,22lr with folding stock/wood stock all for less than the cost of a conversion MP5 limited to one barrel length and configuration. UZI will shoot loads hot enough to bust HKs to bitty bits. Full spare parts set avail for $200 and can be assembled by user. Bad points of UZI. Takes a while to learn first shot placement of any open bolt subgun, heavier to carry. Makes clunking bolt sound when shooting suppressed. Personally I am not a fan of Euro Trash HK guns
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 8:37:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 8:50:23 PM EDT
David_Hineline, How would the MP5 break under hot loaded subgun ammo? I have yet to experience a problem firing 115 gr. corbons through my HK 94. The only parts that have broken on my HK 94 through thousands of rounds fired is the roller retaining plate which really does not affect the function of the firearm. It only hurts you when you breakdown the firearm for cleaning which would cause you to probably loose the 2 roller bearings. Thats it! Maybe the firing pin, but that problem exists on all firearms. On the issues of caliber changes, the HK series firearms were meant to only be used in such a caliber. Caliber choice is not an option. Also Europe is not a big fan of the .45 ACP rd. For practice a .22 caliber kit is available for $600, which is a substantial savings in the long run. Fluted barrels do destroy brass, but when is the last time you have seen a person firing a Class III firearm collecting brass. 9mm UMC ammo is about 4.95 a box a Walmart. If a person is willing to spend money on a Class III firearm, they sould not cry about spending a couple hundred bucks for spare parts and ammo. All a machine gun is a money pit, nothing else. Its like a person buying a Ford Excursion 4x4 with a 4 in. lift and mud tires crying about the amount of gas that thing drinks. On the issues of substained firing, in my experience, the delayed-roller design of the action reduces felt recoil, aiding in substained fire. Also trigger groups can be changed which can also aid in obtaining tighter groups.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 8:55:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 9:02:00 PM EDT
I think you guys mean fluted chamber.
Link Posted: 8/27/2001 9:29:55 PM EDT
shot both again this weekend. my uzi, my pal's issue mp5. (his mac too. aside from the stock and sights it grew in my estimation.) mp5 is a nice gun. no hiccuping on cheap ammo like the open bolt uzi. accurate, easy to handle- but i'll stick to my uzi for much less than half the price, thank you. it will do the job. simple and rugged. if your giving 'em away, i'll take an mp5 any day. (don't care for the hk collapsible stock, though. hard to get your eye to the sights. i'll take mine with the fixed stock, thanks.) btw, the mp5 is also obsolete. iirc, the new hk's are blow back.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 1:38:32 AM EDT
Some years ago, I asked a former neighbor who works for the Secret Service the same question about HK vs Uzi (which he manned from time to time). He was very happy with the Uzi and trusted it with his life. He liked the HK too, but it didn't feel as robust to him. I've fired both very briefly (with a trainer) and the Uzi was a great fun...smiles from ear to ear. With the HK, I was astonished at how accurate I was able to be with it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 3:17:40 AM EDT
Coolness Factor: MP5 It's cool to have the same gun GSG9 and SWAT guys use. Guns far more expensive, parts are expensive (if you can find them), maintenance a bitch, mags expensive, destroys ammo, is ammo sensitive. Useability: Uzi. Guns are cheaper, parts are cheap, mags are cheap, ammo not destroyed, not ammo sensitive, recoil is substantially less. The Uzi is a far better starter gun for the new C3 enthusiast. Tactically there really isn't a difference.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 3:36:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2001 3:39:17 AM EDT by drfcolt]
Love my suppressed Colt SMG. Runs great, looks great, and I'm familiar with it mechanically, due to being AR-15/M-16 related. This is all I need to feed my SMG needs. Here's the specs and a picture: - EA-Wilson RR lower with Cross-Fire mag-block - Gemtech Talon-SD suppressed 9MM upper - Trijicon Reflex II - Knights RIS/sling-swivel adapter/vertical pistol-grip - Hogue grip - Colt 2-position CAR stock - MWS/GGG sling-support [url]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=13421952&p=52238933[/url]
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 6:14:39 AM EDT
Since we are talking tactically, I'll have to say the MP5 is probably better. The closed bolt operation makes the first and possibly most important shot more accurate, the sights are much better than anything found on any UZI, plus there are tons more tactical accessories that can easily be found for the H&K weapons. Now, if I was going to buy one I would get the UZI and not think twice. Its cheaper, more robust, cheaper replacement parts and mags. Hell, you could replace every part sans the receiver on an UZI for less than replacing a bolt on an MP5. I wouldn't really consider the brass issue, but just because you have machineguns doesn't mean you aren't still cheap. I have three of them and I still pick up my brass to reload. I know several others who do too. MP5 for tactical situations, the UZI for a battle weapon is what I would choose. Michael
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 7:00:58 AM EDT
Some good points brought out on both sides. But the Uzi wins my vote. HK's are just too fragile. What can you say when the armorers kit comes with a dent remover and touchup paint? Not to say they aren't fun to shoot, but the days of the plastic squirt-gun are over. Now, if we're talking tactical applications, I'll still use an M4 over either of them. Better ballistic performance from the round for CQB, and is still good at range. -SARguy
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 7:24:02 AM EDT
hk cool, and the roller locking is the technical perfection for minimal recoil maximum accuracy uzi is the ww2 battle subgun which runs all the time, is cheap, and heavy m10/45 with 9mm, 22lr and slowfire task conversions is less than the uzi new in box and does the same thing - if you absolutely have to kill everyone in the room a m10/45 or 9mm is as good as anything else in the world sten = fun in 9mm and cheap m3/m3a1 the most fun anyone can have in 45 1921/1928/m1a1 the second most fun in 45 in the world;)
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 11:06:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pbrstreetgang: shot both again this weekend. my uzi, my pal's issue mp5. (his mac too. aside from the stock and sights it grew in my estimation.) mp5 is a nice gun. no hiccuping on cheap ammo like the open bolt uzi. accurate, easy to handle- but i'll stick to my uzi for much less than half the price, thank you. it will do the job. simple and rugged. if your giving 'em away, i'll take an mp5 any day. (don't care for the hk collapsible stock, though. hard to get your eye to the sights. i'll take mine with the fixed stock, thanks.) btw, the mp5 is also obsolete. iirc, the new hk's are blow back.
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I completely agree the A2 is superior to the A3 stock. I personally use a side folder on my MP5. A nice middle ground stock. But the MP5 is far from obsolete. The UMP45 is nowhere near the MP5 in almost every category. In many ways the UMP is inferior to the UZI.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 11:27:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: The UMP45 is nowhere near the MP5 in almost every category. In many ways the UMP is inferior to the UZI.
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How so? I haven't had a chance to fondle or play with one yet and I haven't really heard many reviews on them. Did you get a chance to shoot one? What were your likes and dislikes? Give us some more info...inquiring minds want to know. Michael
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 11:47:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 12:18:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2001 12:19:22 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: How so? I haven't had a chance to fondle or play with one yet and I haven't really heard many reviews on them. Did you get a chance to shoot one? What were your likes and dislikes? Give us some more info...inquiring minds want to know. Michael
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Yeah I spent an entire day putting one through the paces. Here are "my" impressions. 1. Big and chuncky. Much larger than the UZI and MP5. Kinda a bulky gun in my opinion, but not necessarily heavy. Advantages over the MP5. 1. Side folding stock, much better than the A3 MP5 stock. True you can get a side folder for the MP5. Still prefer the A2 stock on the MP5 to all. 2. Accessory rails. The HK claw mounts always did kinda suck. Scratched your gun, were huge and elevated optics way the hell up there and if you overtightened them - they pinched and often damaged your receiver. Hated damn claw mounts, fricken pains in the ass. 3. Chambered in .45. Not a huge plus for me, but for those who believe the 9mm is not sufficient. 4. Safety lever is better positioned. Of course this is true for the Navy style MP5 lower as weel. Disadvantages of the UMP: 1. Sights suck. My preferred setup is a G3 style v-notch drum on the MP5. The 4 appeture drum on the MP5 is not bad but still better then the "almost Mac10" style rear sight on the UMP. However a trijicon reflex sight on the accessory rail makes this a non issue. 2. Extended Trigger guard. Done for those wearing gloves and I know that. But in the hands of law enforcement it encourages fingers on the trigger and not on the guard. Despite their training, every person to a man, was "finger on the trigger" that day. Except for me of course. 3. Jump o matic. Maybe it's the open bolt, maybe it's the .45 but this thing was no where near as precise as the MP5. As far as open bolt .45s go, it was night and day above a Mac10 but still kinda jumpy. I wouldn't want it over a MP5 if I was gonna pop a guy holding a knife to my wifes throat from behind. 4. Seemed vulnerable. I have heard about how fragile MP5s are and I would like to go on record as saying it is complete crap. I have seen MP5s in the hands of uncaring morons who treat them like a walking stick. I've seen trainging guns dropped so many times it's not funny. They are scratched up guns that work evertime. I don't believe the UMP will hold up as well or for as long. 5. Front forearm is very short. Not an issue with the K grip installed but without it, I hate the "feel." Of course I equally despise the MP5 with a slim forearm. For me nothing beats the Wide forearm of the MP5, just a comfort and joy to shoot. That said, the day Garry comes out with a high capacity semi auto version, I'm getting it.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 1:22:07 PM EDT
Reasonable Rascal posted this over at Assault Web: Class III IMI UZI 9mm & .45 + silencer, starting at $3000 [:P] [url]http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=1911828[/url] [img]http://www.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2001-08-26/kicking_998887777_U1.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 1:47:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 1:51:30 PM EDT
Not a bad little UZI setup but I don't think its worth the $6k buy it now price he is asking. Also, it is being advertised as a semi converted by the manufacturer (IMI) which makes it a factory machinegun. I really don't see how this could be true as IMI is overseas and this gun could have never been legally imported again for civilian sales. The best it could have possibly been was a pre dealer sample. It has to have been converted by a C2 somewhere in the states, regardless of who it says the manufacturer is on the transfer form. With new Vectors selling for $2675 I don't see this one moving for a while. Michael
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 6:50:36 PM EDT
PonyBoy: Where are you seeing these new Vector Uzis for $2600? The Vector Arms website lists new standard Uzis for $3200. I just want to know because I'm going to be buying another Uzi in the near future for my wife. It would be great if I could get a new Vector for less than 3 grand.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 6:59:28 PM EDT
An Uzi makes you look more intimidating then an MP5.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 7:04:06 PM EDT
Ive got the same shoulder rig and an IMI 9 MM Model B UZI with a Ciener suppressor that ill sell for less than a new Vector if anyone is interested
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 7:05:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2001 7:09:31 PM EDT by trickshot]
Uzi--mags & parts are cheap and fairly easy to locate, semi guns are easy to convert (not that I've tried it). Battle tested in the worst of conditions. Israeli commandos used them, I'm sure they could shoot them just as accurately as anyone with an mp5, probably better. The iron sights on the MP5 are the pits. Horrible! No windage, impossible to adjust elevation without a special tool that no one has. The scope mount is way too pricey, as are all the parts. Yes, Uzis are bulky and somewhat heavy, but at least the irons are usable. I hate the cocking handle on the mp5, and there's no last round hold open, fast mag changes take practice (okay, same could be said of Uzi). I used to love the H&K, but I suddenly realized that I was on the same side as every JBT in the country. I don't idolize SWAT cops. All this talk about "entry guns" overlooks the fact that making such entries should not be taking place in 99% of cases. The Uzi is a free man's subgun. Not perfect, but what is? Send the expensive socialist German junk back.
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 7:27:59 PM EDT
steyraug- I completely agree the A2 is superior to the A3 stock. I personally use a side folder on my MP5. A nice middle ground stock.
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i forgot about the choate side-folder on the pdw. will that fit the standard mp5? i thought it only fit the k without modifications. if so, it [u]would[/u] be superior.[:D]
But the MP5 is far from obsolete. The UMP45 is nowhere near the MP5 in almost every category. In many ways the UMP is inferior to the UZI.
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by obsolete, i meant no longer in production, not inferior. that may have been due to other issues: cost, wear, etc. sometimes the better product just does not survive the market forces. thanks for the review of the ump! very informative. may be a little while before i get my hands on one of those. if mp5's were more reasonably priced, i'd run out and get a pdw right now!
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 8:29:49 PM EDT
Rgred-- Dealer Cost on the Vector is in about the $2600-2700 range. I have seen a couple of ads on Subguns.com looking for purchasers for a group purchase. I don't know if he still has any, but JLM in New Hampshire was selling them for $2875 and you got a special deal on a Gemtech "Mossad" supressor (I believe $450ish) if you bought the gun. Flashx-- If you are intersted in trades on your UZI, e-mail me. Thanks, AFARR
Link Posted: 8/28/2001 9:25:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: Uzi--mags & parts are cheap and fairly easy to locate, semi guns are easy to convert (not that I've tried it). Battle tested in the worst of conditions. Israeli commandos used them, I'm sure they could shoot them just as accurately as anyone with an mp5, probably better.
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Oh brother, you don't have a clue.
The iron sights on the MP5 are the pits. Horrible! No windage, impossible to adjust elevation without a special tool that no one has. The scope mount is way too pricey, as are all the parts. Yes, Uzis are bulky and somewhat heavy, but at least the irons are usable.
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No windage possible on the UZI at all. But you can adjust the MP5 for windage. As far as elevation? You need a UZI front sight tool and it's a bigger hassel than the HK tool adjustment. The irons on the UZI are too tight for practical CQB. And as far as mounts...ever seen a scoped UZI?
I hate the cocking handle on the mp5, and there's no last round hold open, fast mag changes take practice (okay, same could be said of Uzi).
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UZI doesn't have a last round hold open. If you fire it dry the bolt falls on an empty chamber.
I used to love the H&K, but I suddenly realized that I was on the same side as every JBT in the country. I don't idolize SWAT cops. All this talk about "entry guns" overlooks the fact that making such entries should not be taking place in 99% of cases.
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A gun is just a tool and knows no politics.
The Uzi is a free man's subgun. Not perfect, but what is? Send the expensive socialist German junk back.
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It is clearly obvious you don't own either gun. And to pbrstreetgang, the PDW stock will not fit. Bit Choate did make a side folder for the full sized MP5. I have one on one of my MP5s. Also fits the 93. And I even think they made one for the 91. Also the MP5 is still in production and probably will be for a long time. They didn't stop making the 1911 just because the Army adopted the M9.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 7:00:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rg00red: PonyBoy: Where are you seeing these new Vector Uzis for $2600? The Vector Arms website lists new standard Uzis for $3200. I just want to know because I'm going to be buying another Uzi in the near future for my wife. It would be great if I could get a new Vector for less than 3 grand.
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Some guy over at subguns is advertising them for $2675 as some type of group purchase. He says its for dealers only, so you will need to get your dealer to place the order for you. Its for a limited time only, so if you want one you better hurry. Michael
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 8:49:20 AM EDT
MP5 THE ONLY WAY TO GO !
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 11:36:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Some guy over at subguns is advertising them for $2675 as some type of group purchase. He says its for dealers only, so you will need to get your dealer to place the order for you. Its for a limited time only, so if you want one you better hurry. Michael
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I think thats David Spiwak in PA selling the Vectors - very good guy. If you're thinking of getting a Vector, I'll give a thumbs up for Dave.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 8:58:31 PM EDT
How can you say that I haven't got a clue about Uzi parts? Their are demilled FA kits all over the place for like $200. Even if it took 3 kits, you could have a complete weapon minus the receiver (or weld up a receiver).
A gun is just a tool and knows no politics.
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Making a bunch of socialist arms dealers rich is all you do when you buy H&K. Do what you want though.
It is clearly obvious you don't own either gun.
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Actually, I own one of each. The Uzi is windage adjustable and it's actually usable, not like the HK94 with about 5mm of travel and that angled cylinder with multiple apetures and one open-v on top. Impossible! [url]http://www.tecinfo.com/~jayhawk/uzidif.html[/url] "The sights on the model B are different from those on the Model A. 1. The sights on the Model A are like the SMG. Elevation and windage are adjusted on the front sight, and requires a SMG sight-adjustment tool. 2. The sights on the Model B are adjustable without a special tool. Elevation is adjusted on the front sight and windage is adjusted on the rear sight." Best to look before you leap next time. ;-) Yeah, the B is less desirable than the "A" to sompe people, but I like the ratcheting top cover. And despite what some say, it can be converted. Scope mounts are less than ideal for both. I'm fully aware of how the Uzi functions, I never said it had a last round hold-open either. The 9mm Colt is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that does.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 9:53:40 PM EDT
An Uzi vs. MP5. I bought my Uzi in 1981. Can get jackrabbits on the run single shot. I can leave it on the floor of my truck without cringing because it didn't cost me $8000 and is irreplaceable. I have about 50 magazines lying around in different boxes from over the years. None of them has gone bad. Have a couple extra parts kits that I've never opened the plastic to in nearly 20 years - somewhere...It spits out anything I feed it, and believe me, I've loaded up some real garbage fodder over the years. Back in the 80s, if you wanted to shoot alot you had to reload because the only place you bought ammo was the gun store or gun show, and there weren't any 3.00 box of ammo back then that I recall. Picking up brass I often mistakenly loaded .380 now and then, and yes, they'd get fed through too, no problem. With that robust Uzi, sheesh. I'd say, if you had the extra 5K and wanted to buy something that will be a crappy investment because it is already so highly over valued like some tech stocks used to be last year, go ahead and get the MP5. But for me, I just can't see spending 8 grand on something that only cost the factory $20 bucks to stamp out. The time to buy an MP5 was 10-15 years ago. It just isn't anymore.
Link Posted: 8/29/2001 10:28:23 PM EDT
originaly posted by SteyrAUG: Also the MP5 is still in production and probably will be for a long time. They didn't stop making the 1911 just because the Army adopted the M9.
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glad to hear that. i had been told, by what i thought to be a reputable source, that hk had ceased production of the mp5. even if that were so, i suppose they could still be made under license. i have to admit, there are few guns sexier than an mp5. also: b-square makes a sturdy mount for the uzi. i have one on mine with a pdp5cmp. armison has one also. i drilled out my 100yd aperature to make it a better combat sight. the 200yd aperature is just silly...
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 4:08:39 AM EDT
Still the cheapest way for those who already have an M16/RR/RDIAS is a Colt SMG conversion. Very reliable and all the average guy needs as far as a SMG. As far as sexy, I'll put mine up against welded-up, sheet-metal MP-5 any day. [img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=13421952&p=52238933[/img]
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 5:52:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 5:53:35 AM EDT by bulldog1967]
So is that 2 tax stamps for that? About how much $$$ did it take for that whole rig? Woohoo! I drool everytime I see it! Bulldog Out
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 8:20:47 AM EDT
Now that's one slick SMG, drfcolt!
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 8:58:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 9:02:10 AM EDT by drfcolt]
Yea, 2 tax stamps - one for the suppressed upper and one for the RR lower. Probably about $6,500: - Wilson/EA RR lower about $4.5K - Gemtech Talon-SD suppressed upper $1,200 (complete) - RIS, stock, ... about $300 - Reflex about $300 If you already have an M16/RR/DIAS, cost is about $1,500-$1,800 for upper, RIS, Reflex.
Link Posted: 8/30/2001 10:23:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2001 10:29:25 AM EDT by CQB30]
[img]www.relics.org.uk/pm1930.jpg[/img] Just a alternative suggestion. Cheap,Ugly,and Effective. Weight: 8.15 lbs Barrel Length: 8 inches Capacity: 30 rounds Caliber: 45 ACP / 450 rounds per min.
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