Posted: 5/1/2006 2:03:02 PM EDT
| Okay here where I work we work with a guy that is looking to get a new pistol. He is looking at a glock or a beretta 9mm. Okay here is the discussion. He swears that the 9mm is the caliber of choice because it will definitely stop a person coming at you. Our end of it is that we aren't convinced that the 9mm has that kind of stopping power. He swears that since he was in the military that it will do it no problem, but we told him that there are much better handgun calibers that will do a better job. What say you ARFCOM? |
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I personally feel a 9mm is sufficient to stop aggression. A 45 is better... But I keep some 9mm silvertips in the nightstand. Sometimes I keep a gun in there, too! Honestly, I have never had a failure of any kind with my 9. I have/had issues with both of the .45's I've owned. That made the decision for me. ETA: I don't own a .40 right now. I suppose it would at least make someone stop and say ouch if it were all I had..... |
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I just switched from HydroShoks for my Walther PPK/s to Cor-Bon's and I don't feel undergunned at all. Of course living down here somewhat precludes big CCW's because I wear shorts and teeshirts a lot. My wife is an excellent shot with her Sig 239 and doesn't feel undergunned. Like 'Bama said, it's all about placement. HH |
| With modern JHP rounds, a 9mm will probably stop someone. If you figure whether you have a 9mm, .45ACP or a .454 Casaull, you're shooting until the bad guy falls down. When you look at it that way, tell him to buy the one he's the most confident shooting. One 9mm in the bad guy's A ring is better than a .45 in the wall next to him. |
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Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. I lumped the data from the top two performing bullets in each of the common service calibers, which I will loosely refer to as “9mm” (9x19 Parabellum), “.357” (.357 Magnum), “.40” (.40 S & W), and “.45” (.45 ACP). I did the same lumping for the “back up” calibers, like “.32” (.32 ACP or 7.65 mm Browning), “.380” (.380 ACP, .380 Auto, or 9mm Short), and “.38” (.38 Special regular or +P fired from a 2 inch barrel). I did the lumping of data from the top two performers in each caliber in order to make sure I had a large enough "sample size" in each caliber to do statistical testing, yet still analyze top-performing ammo in each caliber. Lumping also tended to somewhat minimize the influence of any manufacturer-specific quirks in bullet construction, to increase the likelihood of including data from rounds that are available to regular citizens, and to increase the likelihood of including data from bullet brands that are unlikely to be discontinued in the near future and are available even in far flung locales. I did not lump ALL the available data, just the top two performers. I did this because I figured that people were more interested in how calibers perform at their best rather than how they perform on average. Besides, I got what seemed to be plenty of data just lumping the top 2 cases. The average number of shootings was 218 per category, a chillingly respectable number of observations. The smallest number of cases obtained with this method was for the .40 S&W, at 58 shootings, which would still be considered a fairly respectable sample size by most scientists. (Note: I use the term “sample” loosely here.) Whenever there was a tie for the number 1 or 2 spot within a given caliber, I used the bullet type that had the higher number of shootings associated with it. This happened in the .380 caliber, with two types of Federal ammo tying for #2 at 69% stops, so I used the one listed at 109 shootings instead of the one listed at 58 shootings. RESULTS --THE PISTOL RANKINGS BY CALIBER: By my method, the lumped ranking for the top two brands in each of the common pistol calibers was... #1: .357 magnum is tops at 96% chance of 1-shot stop in 727 shootings (!). #2: .40 S&W at 95% chance of 1-shot stop in 58 shootings. #3: .45 ACP at 94% chance 1-shot stop in 85 shootings. #4: 9mm at 90% chance 1-shot stop in 141 shootings. #5: .380 at 69% chance 1-shot stop in 129 shootings. >#6: .38 special (regular or +P from 2 inch barrel) at 66% chance 1-shot stop in 217 shootings. #7: .32 auto at 55% chance of 1-shot stop in 206 shootings. But does this mean that the .45 ACP is only a “third place” performer? No, it does not... Taken from this web site. http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/ |
+1 billion. i use to carry a .380 for CCW until i realized i could hide a .45 just fine but.... i felt 100% better with the .380 rather than without it. ive fucked some objects up pretty good with a 9m.m. before - they definantly have some decent power. but this day in age with all the meth-heads running around, even a .45 isnt enough to stop someone whos cranked out sometimes |
| Annnnd it depends. If the bad guy is loaded up on drugs and alcohol then it will take a central nervous system hit or major structure bone break to bring them down. So, two in the X ring and one in the cranium. Also high performance ammo is a must, FMJ is the worst ammo for self defense. IMHO |
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no small calibre handgun is a manstopper without propper shot placement. modern 9mm designs are almost as good as major calibre handguns in most circumstances. that said, those that shoot people for a living and are serious about it generally don't use a 9mm pistol. think about that. LEO swat units, elite military units have almost all dropped the 9mm as a service round for various reasons. there is a reason for that. would i feel under gunned with a 9mm? No and i do and have carried them. I also realise that 1 shot with pretty much ANY pistol is not going to stop a determined attacker. between those 2 guns i'd buy neither. the berretta is to big for a 9mm and the sights are crap. the glock.... well it's a glock shitty trigger bad pointing grip angle and all the rest. much beter options in the same price range for a fighting gun. if it had to be one of those.... i'd take the glock hands down. |
Those that know in the military carry .45's But, shot placement counts. A 9mm is a lethal SOB the hands of a skilled shooter. SG |
| Shot placement and multiple hits with a caliber that provides decent penetration is key.Use whatever caliber/weapon combo you are most comfortable with.And then TRAIN in deploying it,retaining it,etc.FIGHTING with a gun is not the same as shooting at the local indoor.And i'd personally take the Sig 226 in 9mm over the choices given. |
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No handgun is 100% effective, especially no 1 shot stops. Who was it who said: "A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the rifle or shotgun you never should have laid down to start with"? A rifle or shotgun is a 1 shot stopper. A handgun is easier to carry and conceal but it is a compromise. Like many above have said- shot placement trumps caliber choice. I consider the 9mm the smallest defense handgun round, and the 44mag is the upper limit. Anything more powerful is difficult to place accurate follow-up shots. A .45acp is what I carry, and have carried for decades. There is nothing wrong with a 9mm, but it is close to being not powerful enough- no flaming! I would not feel undefended if I had a 9mm. A .38spcl, .357mag, etc. are all good choices. Just my 2 cents, Jim |
Yeah, but they are switching back, especially spec ops and mall ninjas! Jim |
that was strictly a political move to assist with supply issues within nato. it had little to nothing to do with performance. |
Regardless the fact that the majority carry 9's, there's plenty of guys out there still carrying .45's (specops and the like) and many more trying to GET their hands on them lately...... No reason to be condescending about it. |
Actually there was, but he edited his post. |
Then I retract my prior statement..... My apologies. Just get tired of the childish name calling around here sometimes, my bad. |
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DAMMITT! i just typed a really long and informative post and in got ate by my comp! ok short version... N_T is right, it doesnt matter what caliber gun you have as long as you have 18!!! rounds of ammo! Most LEO use of lethal force situations happen at between 6 and 10 feet and only 10% of rounds fired hit target (this doesnt mean vital areas, its counts anywhere on the person's body, leg arm pinky toe ect.) So if you have a 1911 that holds 8 rounds, statistically only 1/10th of those 8 rounds will strike the intended target.... Which means you are going to miss entirely and just scare the shit out of em. on the other hand, if you are carrying any pistol made, i dont care what caliber, and you fire 18... let me repeat 18!!! fucking rounds, at least two bullets are going to strike the target. You have to think about this statistically. |
i wouldn't wrap my facts up in LEO stats. 80% of those guys don't practice beyond what they are mandated to do and frankly the majority just can't shoot. i know i have helped qualify them on more than one occasion. mix poor skills with stress and you get 10% hits. mix stress with good skills and you get upwards of 60-70%+ hits on vital areas under stress. i have zero doubt out of 8 rnds in a stress condition i can put all 8 on target. they may not be all in vitals but they will be on the BG. |
Bet half the big-talkers on this site don't shoot twice a year, and have never had any professional instruction. |
I certainly would'nt take that bet! |
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The most important thing is to have the pistol with you when you need it. A pistol you can carry all the time beats one you can carry only part of the time. The next most important thing is to be able to rapidly and accurately place your shots under stress. That means you need a firearm you have a lot of training with. Your friend might have a lot of range time with the M9. If so it would be the most deadly handgun for him to have. I’ve shot some competition with my .357 revolver and I’m faster and more accurate with it than with any thing else I own. Want to guess what I’m grabbing for home defense? 9mm will do the job if place your shots properly. And since most 9mms have a light recoil and a large magazine capacity it’s easy to score rapid hits on a target. |
That is no bs! When I was a cop I practiced about 200-500 rounds a week. Everyone else I worked with only fired a few rounds prior to qualifying. They were miserable shots. When I hear of an LEO shooting where 20 or 30 rounds were fired, with the suspect having one flesh wound, I cringe. Those damn bullets do not stop just because it's a miss! I shoot falling plate matches now, and I still have the mindset I did as a cop. I bet I can put a full mag from my SA .45acp in center mass. Of course, the training I had helped an unusual trait I have. Under stress I get real calm. The guys I worked with said I was spooky, but I just tended to focus. Jim |