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Posted: 8/18/2001 9:26:15 PM EDT
Took at trip to J & G in Prescott today. There, the Sig Other had her eye on an SAR-1. So, when she went to actually buy it, the muckety-mucks at J & G decreed that her driver's license had to have her current residential address on it or no sale. We offered to show them mail from the government with her current residential address on it (W's tax rebate actually), but that wasn't good enough. "Driver's license, voter registration or auto registration, with current address, or no sale." sayeth the muckety-mucks. We pointed out the obvious: that after dozens of purchases from at least 10 different FFL dealers (including major stores like Arizona Sportsman) I had never heard of this "requirement." My license hasn't had my current address on it for five years, although DMV is well-aware of where I live. J & G decreed: "Well, they are breaking the law and we aren't. That's the law." I call bullshit on that. So we left with no rifle, and I also didn't bother with the 2K of British .308 I was going to get. And I am never going back to J & G. I will only kiss *so much* ass for the privilege of patronizing a business. Anybody else experience this level of crapola?
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 9:36:52 PM EDT
Look at it from there side, BATF would love to get them on something, any nitpicking thing. Why don't you just comply with the law and get your license up to snuff. Why do people always say "the other guy does it why don't you?"
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 9:41:22 PM EDT
You live in FL so I kinda doubt if you have the slightest clue as to AZ law. I AM in compliance with the law, so is Sig Other. You need to *tell* DMV you moved, you do NOT have to go get a new D/L with your new address. Comprende?
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 9:51:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger: You live in FL so I kinda doubt if you have the slightest clue as to AZ law. I AM in compliance with the law, so is Sig Other. You need to *tell* DMV you moved, you do NOT have to go get a new D/L with your new address. Comprende?
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But by federal law you [b]do[/b] need your current address on [i]all[/i] of the ID papers you are using, DL, VR, etc. for gun purchases. The gun shop mucky-mucks were telling you the truth, the other guys who do it can get busted and loose their FFLs. In Virginia the DMV issues a little paper card much like a VR card that is a legal document and can be used in conjuction with DL and other identification materials. This card costs nothing, unlike the $25 re-issue fee for a new DL.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 9:58:49 PM EDT
Really? If you have a cite to such a federal law, please provide it. I wouldn't have such a hard time with this if *other* FFL holders were so bitchy about this alleged law. No *other* FFL holder in my experience is. And, all these *other* FFLs seem to be staying in business in spite of the scrutiny of the powers that be.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:08:02 PM EDT
In Florida when you change your residence and you notify the DMV they give/send you an adhesive sticker with the new address which you place on the back of the license. Its usually always easier to comply with the law than to try to wiggle out of doing so.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:13:25 PM EDT
I needed my 39 month driving record to show my residence address. I have my PO Box on my DL, and I had no official paperwork that gives the residence address, so it didn't seem too unreasonable. They did explain that they get frequent BATF compliance visits because they do so much volume. With all the stories about "stings" where government helpers come in with falsified documents to buy a firearm and claim the dealer did something wrong, I can see where they're coming from. Aside from that inconvenience, they were rather helpful and seemed knowledgeable. Only problem I have is they're not some place I'd just happen to be passing through more often.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:16:43 PM EDT
Hangfire, at the risk of starting a flamefest, you are a clown. I am not trying to "wiggle out" of a damn thing. What's next, you turn me into the NAACP or something? Thanks to the other gents for their responses.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:23:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2001 10:18:58 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
I won't take anyone's side, at least not overtly, but this sounds like a deal of CYA (Cover Your Ass). Apparently, someone has been putting the fear of God into FFLs over the past few years. A lot of FFLs refuse to receive firearms from non-FFLs and they all want to nitpick things, hence the driver's license. My buddy who has an FFL won't receive or do business with anyone he doesn't know. Glad I'm on that list. I wouldn't be too hard on J&G just yet.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:36:49 PM EDT
Chairborne, You got me curious so I got out my Federal Firearms Regulation Manual. It does state in the Federal Code 178.11, Subpart B-Definitions, Identification Document; A docement containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State, a foreign government, political subdivision of a foreign government, an international governmental or an international quasi-governmental organization which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals. So I guess if your S.O. has an out of date address she can't buy a gun, but a member of an international quasi-governmental organization (United Nations) could.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:46:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2001 10:54:15 PM EDT by HANGFIRE]
Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger: Hangfire, at the risk of starting a flamefest, you are a clown. I am not trying to "wiggle out" of a damn thing. What's next, you turn me into the NAACP or something? Thanks to the other gents for their responses.
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I am a clown? "We pointed out the obvious: that after dozens of purchases from at least 10 different FFL dealers (including major stores like Arizona Sportsman)" Anybody can say anything at anytime. Just because you say you have made these purchases would not sway a RATIONAL FFL. "I had never heard of this "requirement." You learn something everyday, if you keep your mouth shut and your ears open. "My license hasn't had my current address on it for five years, although DMV is well-aware of where I live." I will take you at your word on your license but if you haven't changed your address how is the DMV "well aware of where I/you live?" How does that work? They told you and "?Sig Other?" they would take a voter registration card or a utility bill with your names on them. Do you vote? Do you have a phone? I believe I have been very civil in my responses to your topic. I do not see where I have given you cause to call me names or for your NAACP comment.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:54:43 PM EDT
I have purchased at least 5 firearms in the last 4 years and my address on my D/L has been out of date for 6 years and I never had a problem. In Fact the last transfer I had done the guy asked me if the addy on my license was current and I said no and he took my current off my CCW. Never mentioned the requirement. I'm sure this is common since in Arizona your license is good for like 35 years from the date issued....
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 10:57:50 PM EDT
Hangfire, DMV knows where I live because in this state, it is the law to notify them within 30 days (I think) of the time you change addresses. I didn't say anything about numerous other purchases to sway J & G. I am mentioning this history on this thread to point out *no one else,* out of a significant number of FFLs, seems to have this particular requirement. Hangfire, it is obvious you haven't a clue. You seem hellbent on deliberately misinterpreting everything I say. You *have* been less than civil, because in your particular snide way, you are accusing me of being some sort of crook who is trying to skirt the law. This is an unjustified and insulting insinuation on your part. Please do me the courtesy of starting one of your numerous "worthy" threads and stay off mine. THANK YOU.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 11:00:59 PM EDT
At the gun stores I go to they usually try to sell the gun, not keep you from buying it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 11:09:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Beagles747: I have purchased at least 5 firearms in the last 4 years and my address on my D/L has been out of date for 6 years and I never had a problem. In Fact the last transfer I had done the guy asked me if the addy on my license was current and I said no and he took my current off my CCW. Never mentioned the requirement. I'm sure this is common since in Arizona your license is good for like 35 years from the date issued....
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You had ID with your current address. Apparently it is required and you fullfilled the requirement. J&G would have accepted voter registration auto registration and probably CCP. Why bust the balls of people trying to run a business and follow the law?
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 11:19:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2001 11:17:31 PM EDT by HANGFIRE]
[b]"We pointed out the obvious:[/b] that after dozens of purchases from at least 10 different FFL dealers (including major stores like Arizona Sportsman) I had never heard of this "requirement." [b]VS[b] [b]"I didn't say anything about numerous other purchases to sway J & G.[/b] I am mentioning this history on this thread to point out *no one else,* out of a significant number of FFLs, seems to have this particular requirement" Does anyone else see any duplicity when comparing these statements? WELL!
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 11:29:14 PM EDT
HANGFIRE your dopeyness continues. I don't have to talk a business into selling me the product. If J & G doesn't want to sell a rifle to me, or someone else, that's fine. I might tell them I have had other and better experiences at other dealers, but if they don't want to make a sale that's quite OK. So I don't go in there anymore. Remember my courteous request above that you get the hell off this thread? I humbly submit it once more. Meanwhile, why don't you move to AZ and apply to work at J & G? I am sure they would love to have someone as knowledgable as you. Good night. I will expect more entertainment when I wake up tomorrow morning and check this thread.
Link Posted: 8/18/2001 11:39:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2001 11:35:13 PM EDT by Scipio]
Chairborne... I had the same problem at a dealer in New York... I was just about to purchase a new HK USC when I mentioned that my address on my license was not my current address. The guy never would have known if I hadn't shot my mouth off, but I wanted to be honest. Anyway, at my usual dealer, I have never had this problem... I've bought Ak's, Ar's, M1a's, Benelli's and never a problem... The dealer told me the same story... Voter regisration or some other gov. doc with my current address... bills, checks, bank statements and mail would not cut it... So I solved the problem easy... I didn't by his Carbine and I ordered it from my usual dealer and had it a couple weeks later. Problem solved... But I understand your frustration... I've been there...
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 12:46:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2001 12:43:07 AM EDT by Glo1]
Chairborne you have mail. [Edited because Chairborne has an "e" at the end of it]
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 3:51:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 7:24:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 7:59:30 AM EDT
J & G Sales is a company to advoid, IMHO. When an intended $200 order became a $450 order I cancelled it before it shipped out the door. They want $65 for this cancellation as a "restocking fee". If they had shipped this would not be an issue, we would pay. Nothing was shipped anywhere to anyone. They want $65 for moving merchandise around their warehouse and talking on the phone. This is in dispute with the credit card company. An unsolicited email ad - spam - from them actually sent themselves an email address that was only on the "properties" of a "usenet" news account. This was unethically, if not illegally, stolen from my computer. I sent a complaint to their ISP. My experience with them was totally negative and would recommend advoiding any contact with them.
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 8:05:05 AM EDT
********************************** [b]Requirement:[/b] State Issued Photo Identification with Name and [blue][size=3] Current [/blue][/size=3] address. ********************************** At least, that is what all the FFL that I have dealt with requires of me. Nevertheless, YMMV!
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 8:30:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2001 8:26:46 AM EDT by Sukebe]
Chairborne Ranger, I will state what I know is obvious to us all. Regardless of the law, no dealer has to sell you anything until they are satisfied that you are who you are. Even then they don't have to sell you anything. You did the right thing, if your not happy with the service take your business elswhere. If it continues to be a hassle then get a new license with your current address.
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 9:58:31 AM EDT
FFL's are very touchy when dealing with the law due to the nature of their buisness. So while I don't agree with your FFL, I can understand why he did what he did. This is compounded by FFL's being V_E_R_Y sensative regarding gun buyers traveling who arrive as a man/woman couple. Reason for this is spouses/girlfriends are often used as straw purchasers by men who are forbidden from buying a firearm. The ATF knows that a woman buying an AK47 appears odd in the eyes of the public, so they use women as agents on the premise that any FFL selling such a gun to a woman should assume that she is a straw purchaser. The setup goes like this. The ATF agents have a man and a woman go into a gun shop, both wired. The man and woman look at a gun (Usually a handgun, or a politically incorrect rifle) and they decide to make the purchase. The woman goes to a corner of the store where no one can hear her, and says out loud "I am buying this (name of gun) for my husband, because he can't legally buy one" or something to that effect. She fills out the paperwork, takes possesion of the gun, they bust the FFL for "knowingly transfering a firearm to a straw purchaser." The dealer will of course claim that he had no knowledge that she was buying for her husband.... but they will have the recordings of the transaction. All the jury hears is the woman saying she was buying the gun for her husband because he couldn't. They don't take into account whether the FFL really heard her say it or not. Of course, this practice is illegal. But the ATF does it all the time, and the money it costs to fight them in court is usually beyond even the wealthiest of gun dealers. The ATF is on an active campaign here in Florida to erradicate FFL's from existence. Southside Gun in Jacksonville FL, along with several other North Florida FFL dealers were recently targeted, and many shut down or cited over seemingly minor infractions. In the case of Southside Gun, it was the set up I mentioned above. An FFL is in a buisness where he has no friends. The government who is supposet to protect him is trying to get him, and the public at large views him as a moraly corroded person for selling guns. You will find more often then not that FFL's will walk on eggshells, not to offend their customers, but because they have to in order to survive.
Link Posted: 8/19/2001 1:28:59 PM EDT
I ran into this recently as well, MI uses those damn stickers and the dealer in IN didn't want to do the deal because of this sticker. Whats weird is MI has all the digital tech to generate a new on the spot, but they do the sticker thing when you move. This I could understand if you could change address by mail, but you must go in person! Duh. So the end all be all was my ops and my work ID was good enough, good thing as I had driven 400 hundred miles to do the deal. Jeff
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