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Posted: 4/4/2006 10:03:32 PM EDT
so who sneezed in what third world shit hole to get the prices of gas up?

hell, as soon as the weather breaks the gas prices should be around Katrina levels, hey i am all for capitilism and profits, but what the hell is going on? this is starting to get rediculous, i am thinking about selling my tohoe for a civic hybred

a random thought, if we put a man on the moon 40 years ago, why cant we make an Full size SUV that even gets decent gas milliage


on another note, since iraq oil was restricted and not availible to the world market(legaly) how is conflict and unstbility in iraq able to effect oil prices? at the very least shouldnt supply and demand dictate that since Iraq is able to now sell some oil on the world market, there is more availible and prices should go down

oh well, at least gas is still cheeper than bottled watter
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:10:09 PM EDT
Gas cheaper than some bottle water... we get 5 gallon bottles of distilled water delivered for about $1/ gallon.
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:12:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 10:12:53 PM EDT by HarrySacz]
Why make an SUV thats gets good milage when everybody buys them anyway? We are not exactly begging for lower prices are we?
Link Posted: 4/4/2006 10:21:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2006 10:22:38 PM EDT by m4hk33]
i was talking about the run of the mill 16oz aquifina bottles that are in convienance stores and vending machines selling for a dollar a bottle,


yeah, judging by how popular they are, you would think that they are giving them away for free. you think that increasing MPG would be a surefire way to corner the market, who wouldnt by a 330HP Taho that gets 60 MPG in the city. its possible buy why do that when we can have a 330HP tahoe that gets 15 MPG. it seems like innovation has passed this industy by,
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:36:11 AM EDT
has anybody heard what gas prices are supposssed to go down to next week, i heard they may be comming down
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:39:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
i was talking about the run of the mill 16oz aquifina bottles that are in convienance stores and vending machines selling for a dollar a bottle,


yeah, judging by how popular they are, you would think that they are giving them away for free. you think that increasing MPG would be a surefire way to corner the market, who wouldnt by a 330HP Taho that gets 60 MPG in the city. its possible buy why do that when we can have a 330HP tahoe that gets 15 MPG. it seems like innovation has passed the US industy by,

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:43:37 AM EDT
very true, it seems as if toyota and honda have better luck getting more Mpgs out of their larger SUV's than we do

i have owned full size American SUV's for the last 8 years, but honestly with full prices the way they are I can buy american,

even the fuel efficiant Hybred Tahoe only gets 1 to 2 miles per gallon than a regular vehical
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:45:40 AM EDT
Our gas here has gone from $2.06 2 weeks ago to $2.73 as of yesterday.

Damn....

HH
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:46:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
has anybody heard what gas prices are supposssed to go down to next week, i heard they may be comming down


nope, i heard $3 by friday.since it is a holiday.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:50:07 AM EDT
sweet than that means the 60 dollars i just spent to fill my tank up was well spent, at 2.75 per gallon,

I really wish that i could open up a new oil refinery or move to alaska and start drilling for oil,

oh i forgot, the government has decided that, thats not something that grean peace and PETA would like so it cant happen. but at least the caribou are safe
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:51:17 AM EDT
We have been F**KED OVER since 1973 on oil/gas. Did anyone learn anything in the last 30 years. In my town all I see are huge SUVs, 80-100 buck fill ups. I bought a used Nissan Sentra for my Daughter and when I was speaking with the dealer he said no one even looked at the 2 Sentras on the lot. So we keep buying gas hogs and the demand for fuel is up so the oil companies are raking it in.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:58:17 AM EDT
i agree 100 percent, we do it to our selves.

honestly i will be lauged at for going from a tahoe/surburban to a hybred civic or KIA egg car, but at this point, I am done with full size vehicals have dificulties getting more that 20MPGs.

Ill probly keep my tahoe as a second car since its paid off, but i really need somthing fuel effeciant with gas being so high

I just wish sombody will give me a 20 billion dollar loan and let me open up a new refinery or drill for oil
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 9:58:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:24:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
very true, it seems as if toyota and honda have better luck getting more Mpgs out of their larger SUV's than we do

i have owned full size American SUV's for the last 8 years, but honestly with full prices the way they are I can buy american,

even the fuel efficiant Hybred Tahoe only gets 1 to 2 miles per gallon than a regular vehical



It's because GM doesn't make hybrids.
What they call a hybrid isn't. They just call it that to capitalize on the name recognition.
What GM has is simply a technology to turn the engine off when the vehicle is stopped and then turn it back on when the accelerator is depressed. It's no more a hybrid vehicle than any other conventional vehicle is a hybrid when its engine is turned off.

Honda has made it a major point to get the best fuel ecomomy across the board in all of its conventional vehicles. But even Honda isn't making a "full" hybrid vehicle. Their hybrids are "mild" hybrids (they cannot run on their electric motors w/battery power alone).

As far as I know, there are only four full hybrid vehicles currently on the road; the Toyota Prius, Highlander and Camry and the Ford Escape SUV.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:52:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
has anybody heard what gas prices are supposssed to go down to next week, i heard they may be comming down



You couldn't tell that around here. Went up 10¢ each week for the past two. $2.899/$2.999/$3.099. And all I keep hearing is the radio saying it'll go higher as summer nears.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:53:35 AM EDT
2.85 for regular in Miami. about 10 cents cheaper than right after Katrina
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:54:36 AM EDT
thanks for clearing that up,

at this point, i am fed up with GM and ford, and am leaning towards honda for my next car purchase
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:56:18 AM EDT
Who cares what the gas/water price is. It don't rain gasoline.

GR
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:56:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By greenranger:
Who cares what the gas/water price is. It don't rain gasoline.

GR



i cares because it don't rain money either
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:58:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 11:01:17 AM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]

Originally Posted By Coolio:
As far as I know, there are only four full hybrid vehicles currently on the road; the Toyota Prius, Highlander and Camry and the Ford Escape SUV.



There's also the Lexus RX400.

You're right on, though. If I were buying a hybrid, I would only consider full hybrids. Hondas aren't too bad, but HSD-based hybrids are superior. Chevy shouldn't be allowed to call their "hybrids" by that name. They simply aren't.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 10:59:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
As far as I know, there are only four full hybrid vehicles currently on the road; the Toyota Prius, Highlander and Camry and the Ford Escape SUV.



There's also the Lexus RX400.



Civic hybrid as well
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:01:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 11:08:00 AM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
As far as I know, there are only four full hybrid vehicles currently on the road; the Toyota Prius, Highlander and Camry and the Ford Escape SUV.



There's also the Lexus RX400.



Civic hybrid as well



Not a full hybrid. Honda's hybrids are assist hybrids. They are working on a system to allow electric-only drive in very narrow circumstances to try to look better compared to Toyota, but those cars are still assist hybrids. (Actually, I think the term that's coming out for these types is two-mode hybrid. It's getting more diverse and confusing all the time.)
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:04:27 AM EDT
$2.58 where I'm at in Georgia, up $.40 in the last two weeks. One thing to consider is the safety of large SUV type vehicals. I have seen first hand the outcome of large SUV vs. small eco car...Big always wins.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:12:31 AM EDT
big allways does win, and that is one reason that i have allways had large SUV's but economically I am not willing to pay thousands of dollars more a year to have that assurance.

yes its great to have, but as long as they are gas hogs, they are not going to be a viable option,
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:19:46 AM EDT
The real reason? Too many outdated regulations hindering production. The latest? The phase-out of MTBE, an additave mandated under antiquated Clean Air Act amendments. With MTBE, oxygen requirements could be met along with the lower vapor pressure required for summer months. But with the phase-out of MTBE (but not oxygen requirements), gasoline certified to meet EPA standards is difficult to refine.

Furthermore, the use of ethanol to meet oxygen levels is contradictory to meeting the Reid vapor pressure cap because ethanol has a very high vapor pressure.

Blame the EPA.

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:19:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sWs2:
Gas cheaper than some bottle water... we get 5 gallon bottles of distilled water delivered for about $1/ gallon.



Where are you getting gas for less than $1 a gallon, then?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:23:45 AM EDT
Just Paid $2.49 in South New Jersey. It is $2.69 here in Pennsylvania
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:27:45 AM EDT
$2.75 here.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:29:34 AM EDT
my math is probly wrong but here is how i get that number

aquafina 1.00 for 16fl onces
128 fL onces in a gallon? or atleast around there
128/16=roughly 8 dollars a gallon for aquafina if you buy it from a vending maching or resturant
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:30:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Admiral_Crunch:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
As far as I know, there are only four full hybrid vehicles currently on the road; the Toyota Prius, Highlander and Camry and the Ford Escape SUV.



There's also the Lexus RX400.

You're right on, though. If I were buying a hybrid, I would only consider full hybrids. Hondas aren't too bad, but HSD-based hybrids are superior. Chevy shouldn't be allowed to call their "hybrids" by that name. They simply aren't.



Correct, A_C.
I forgot about that one.
The Lexus, of course, is a Toyota product. Interestingly, all of the full hybrids are running Toyota technology, even the Ford which is license building a version of Toyota's hybrid tech.

I've got a new Prius; totally LOVE it. It's saving my sorry white ass right now, but that won't last forever. As more and more people find out just how good these cars really are, more and more people will buy them. Then State and Federal governments and the oil companies will raise the price of gasoline in order to keep their revenue streams up. This will cause even more people to buy hybrids in a vicious cycle until in about ten years or so, gas will be up around $12.00/per gallon and I'll be right back where I started from.

I really pity the poor saps who are going to be left hlding the bag at the end. It'll be folks too poor to buy new cars and they'll be driving conventional tech (Flintstone Tech) junkers and they'll be getting ass raped so bad they won't be able to drive to work at all.
Welcome to the New World Order.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:33:13 AM EDT
In after the oil company apologists

2.55-2.85 a gallon of the cheap stuff.

Go Go Granholm!

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:34:17 AM EDT
coolio do you see hybrid fule economy will increase or will stay at a constant level?
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:38:17 AM EDT
The new 06 civic can drive on the electric motor alone.... just not to the degree that the toyota HSD can. The older IMA could not.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:40:02 AM EDT
$2.79 is the avereage price in Orlando; you can find it for 2.65 in some areas., but is getting up to $2.90. TIme to break out the bicycles.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:42:35 AM EDT
When the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments required oxygenates be added to gasoline, the refineries were faced with an already stringent requirement for vapor pressure and octane.

Adding ethanol increases the oxygen content but it also increases the vapor pressure and in areas requiring lower vapor pressure blends for summer, must use something else. Enter MTBE, methyl tertiary butyl ether. This chemical also increases the octane rating along with oxygen content but it also has a problem in making small fuel spills a threat to water supply since it is miscable in water.

There are a few class action lawsuits against the manufacturers of MTBE arising out of this problem and the EPA is phasing out its use by May 6 of this year. Now refiners are against the wall, faced with vapor pressure caps, octane requirements and oxygen content.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:45:07 AM EDT
2.65 in Arkansas !
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:45:29 AM EDT
Just cut back on voluntary driving and watch prices fall back down. Demand is very elastic.
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:52:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 11:52:35 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
Here's a good read if you want to understand why gas prices are going up.........



Running full throttle, U.S. refineries still can't meet demand for gas

By Kevin G. Hall
Knight Ridder Newspapers


WASHINGTON - America's unquenched thirst for gasoline is stretching the nation's refineries to their limits. Even so, no new refineries are likely to be built soon, and that helps ensure that gas prices will stay high as America becomes increasingly dependent on foreign-made gasoline.


High investment costs and low profits have discouraged the building of any new U.S. refineries since 1976. Absent new refineries, rising demand for gas will outpace American refiners' ability to make it.


U.S. and global demand for gasoline are at all-time highs. American refineries are running at more than 90 percent capacity, and at up to 96 percent in peak times. That's close to full throttle, and without precedent.


The soaring demand is highly profitable for refiners, who are squeezing out every gallon of gas they can. But their strain to meet the demand is one reason you're paying so much at the pump.


Investors fear that U.S. refineries are stretched too thin. A single accident could disrupt the strained supplies and lead to shortages. To ensure against that risk, buyers bid up the price of oil contracts, and the price of gasoline - a refined derivative of oil - rises in the process.


In virtually any other business, such tight production capacity would spark investment in new facilities. But refining isn't a typical business. Few Americans want refineries in their back yards, polluting the neighborhood and driving down home prices.


And a new, modern refinery costs more than $2.5 billion. That seems like Mount Everest to an industry that's coming out of two decades of weak profits.


"How do you make $1 million in the refining business?" one industry joke goes. "Spend $6 billion" is the punch line.


Annual refinery profits have averaged below 6 percent in the 29 years since the last new refinery opened in the United States, in Garyville, La.


Oil executives such as Jeroen van der Veer have long memories. He's the chief executive officer of Royal Dutch/Shell Group, and when he was asked about the chances for new refineries in the United States, he said: "You must have a changed view of the future before companies decide on refining investment."


That's a diplomatic way of saying that oil exploration and production should continue to yield much greater returns on investment than refining, so don't expect Shell or any other big player to build a new U.S. refinery.

"People aren't going to invest in a 5 to 7 percent rate of return when money costs you 8 percent" to borrow, said David Fleischaker, Oklahoma's energy secretary.


He should know. Oklahoma commissioned a study with an eye toward promoting a sixth refinery in the state.


"Unfortunately, bankers aren't looking for welcome mats. They're looking for high rates of return," Fleischaker said.


Oklahoma officials recently concluded that the economics to support a new refinery wasn't there. Now they're trying to help the state's existing refineries expand.

Earlier this year, the U.S. Energy Department released its annual peek 20 years into the future. One conclusion: It's "unlikely that new refineries will be built in the United States."


Instead, the agency said, existing refineries will expand to produce another 5.5 million barrels per day of gasoline. That still will fall short of demand.


Foreign-made gas will bridge the gap. Imports of finished gasoline account for about 14 percent of the gas sold in the United States today, according to the Energy Department, and will represent more than 20 percent in 2025.


Currently, the top three exporters of refined gasoline to the U.S. market are Canada, the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. Over the next 20 years, the Energy Department believes, U.S. gas imports will come increasingly from the Middle East, North Africa and the Caribbean basin.


President Bush suggests that the lack of new refineries poses a national-security threat. He proposes that new refineries be built on military bases that are being closed. The White House offers few details, however, and global trade rules prevent direct subsidies to industry.


The total refining capacity of the 149 U.S. refineries was 16.8 billion barrels a day last year, down from 17.9 billion barrels a day in 1981. In 1981, there were 324 refineries, but many closed between 1981 and 1996, when refining capacity exceeded the demand for gasoline.


"The refinery situation is a bloody disaster," said Michael Economides, an oil industry expert and professor at the University of Houston. Many American refineries are aging rust buckets, and they'll pose safety risks as metal fatigue and corrosion take their toll, he said.


Yet if Economides considers the refining sector an aging house about to collapse, the industry sees itself as a home being remodeled. Demand for gasoline has grown steadily since 1996, and U.S. refiners responded by refurbishing existing refineries. Incremental expansions added 1.4 million barrels per day of capacity from 1996 to 2003.


"They're not very much in a single view, but measured across 149 refiners in the United States it becomes fairly substantial," said Dennis O'Brien, a former industry executive who's now a consultant with the Eneradv consulting agency in Trophy Club, Texas.



One leading creeper is Valero Energy Corp., based in San Antonio. It's poised to become the nation's largest refiner if the Federal Trade Commission approves its acquisition of Premcor Inc. and its four refineries, including one in Delaware City, Del. Valero then would own 19 refineries that collectively produce about 15 percent of the nation's gas supply.


Valero's specialty is buying bankrupt refineries and upgrading them. Since 1997, spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown said, Valero has added 380,000 barrels a day of refining capacity to the American market.


"That's the equivalent of a handful of (new) refineries," Brown said.


Valero may add another 100,000 barrels a day of capacity by 2010. It plans an expansion at a refinery in St. Charles, La., which it purchased in 2003.



Incremental increases in output boost the amount of U.S.-refined gasoline, but all signs still point to a growing reliance on gas refined overseas.


"If demand growth in America continues and there is strong gasoline demand and strong diesel demand, it is unlikely we are going to be able to supply all these products," said Robert Slaughter, the president of the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association in Washington.


Domestic oil production peaked in the 1970s. Since then, the United States has become increasingly dependent on foreign oil: Fifty-six percent of the oil Americans consumed in 2003 was imported.


And dependence on foreign-made gasoline will grow as existing refineries are expanded to their maximum capacity. The Energy Department projects that in 20 years, 68 percent of the crude oil and gasoline the United States consumes will come from abroad.


"The prospect of energy independence for petroleum products is pretty much a mirage," Slaughter said. "The question is, `Will we be able to keep our reliance down?'"

The Energy Information Administration's Annual Energy Outlook report is available at: www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/index.html.


The National Petrochemical & Refiners Association's U.S. refining-capacity report for 2004 is at: www.npradc.org/publications/statistics/2004RefiningCapacityReport.pdf.

Link Posted: 4/11/2006 11:57:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By m4hk33:
coolio do you see hybrid fule economy will increase or will stay at a constant level?



Hybrid fuel economy will get much better.
But it won't be because the power plants are going to improve that much, they're very good right now.
What will happen (and there are concept hybrids on the drawing boards right now) is that the vehicle chassis itself will get brought up to 21st century standards.
It is supposed to be possible to ramp up carbon fiber tech to enable car makers to start making auto chassis the way aircraft bodies are made. Unibody construction (no separate frame/body) made of carbon fiber lamenates which will be stronger and lighter. It should be possible to get up in the vicinity of 90mpg if vehicle weight can be significantly reduced.

Before any of this can happen though, battery technology has to change. The Nickel Metal Hydride battery is the Achilles heel of hybrid tech. The Nickel Metal Hydride battery is a very good battery, BUT it requires scarce resources (nickel). Imagine what would happen if batteries required gold or platinum. As more and more of these expensive metals were used industrially, the unit cost would not come down, it would go UP. Because large scale industrial demand would drive up the cost of the raw materials. This is the problem with the Nickel Metal Hydride battery. It can be mass produced, but not LARGE scale mass produced. Hundreds of thousand of units can be made, but we are going to need to make millions even TENS of millions of units. For this, we need a different battery.
The battery of choice in the future is probably going to be the lithium battery. The problem is that no one knows how to make a lithium battery large enough to generate the hundreds of volts output necessary for use in a car. Little lithium batteries work great in cameras, flashlights and the like, but when they are ramped up in size, they have a nasty habit of spontaneously bursting into flame or even exploding.
The current engineering wisdom is that this is a solvable problem but it will require anywhere form five to ten years before we see an economical lithium battery suitable for use in mass produced cars. It will happen.

Sheik Yamani (Saudi Oil Minister) said, "The world didn't stop making weapons out of stones because we ran out of stones".

He's right. He knows that we will figure out alternatives to the present way of doing things when we get tired of being ass raped and develope better technology.

I like the discussion, but I gotta run. The work day ended for me a half hour ago!
See ya'll tomorow!
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:01:06 PM EDT
I'm thinking of selling my 2002 dodge ram
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:06:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2006 12:06:52 PM EDT by m4hk33]
great read, when i graduate, i am going to go to mellon with a buisness plan to build a refinery in one of the old steel mil sights, I am going to ask for 5 billion dollars.

I wonder how long it would take to laugh me out of the office,
Link Posted: 4/11/2006 12:06:48 PM EDT
two seventy nine point fucking nine.
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