Quoted: You are welcome to laugh at that bama-shooter, but I have read opinions that say koresh started the fire and never seen proof to back it up. I have also watched the videos and read the books that show how the tear gas and what not can easily start a fire.  I have never seen proof that this caused the fire either, but I do not make fun of that which I am unable to proove or disproove. I won't tell folks what started the fire since I have not seen proof to back up either concept.  I will say both arguments have their good and bad points and basically I think it comes down to being something that will never be known. I think the holes poked in the building show some form of intent on the part of the government.  Notice I said intent, I did not say they tossed a molotave cocktail in one of the holes.

They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound.

The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.

I hate what happened as much as everybody else. Probably more.

In the end the BD's chose their fate.

ETA: Except for the children. They counted on their parents to keep them safe from harm and they failed their own children.

Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link?

I've heard an audio clip of some BD's saying "Spread it around!" or something to that effect. The assumption is that they're spreading fuel for a fire.

The documentary said it was the building of molotov cocktails to throw at the tanks.

Sorry, I don't have a link.

How there can be video of the BDs spreading fuel and lighting it I have no idea. The only camera inside the BD compound was used to film the kids asking if the Feds were going to kill them and what not.

Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link?

Sorry don't have a link. I'm sure some real investigation instead of tinfoil reporting will yield results.

The .gov had bugs inside along with infrared video of the fires starting at almost the sametime around the compound.

But you have to look at more sources than just the Rules of Engagement video.

Again I think what happened was tragic and did not have to happen. But the .gov did not burn the building down. The BD's did.

However, these intercepted comments had been ripped out of context and out of time. They had actually been spoken hours before the fire started and were comments concerning the making of "molotov cocktails" to use as defensive weapons against the tank. There appears to be no evidence that the David-ians ever used any of the cocktails, perhaps because they realized that doing so would present a greater danger to themselves

http://reformed-theology.org/jbs/waco/deceit.htm

The above is one quote from the page I linked, left cold.

I ran a search about the proof that koresh started the fire and the tapes I found mentioned are tapes from some bugs that the gov. sent in with some milk and other stuff apparently.  In one place the folks hearing the tape at the trial were given a transcript to help them follow what was being said.

Mostly the tape that started this thread shows with flir footage that where 3 tanks break through to insert cs gas is where 3 fires started.

Personally I won't take the gov's word about those tapes since no one identified the voices heard on the tapes at the trial and the judge ruled the tapes still admissable.  I know from other incidents where tapes are used, lewinsky and clinton would be a biggy to research, you usually wind up with someone or several someones identifying the voices heard on the tape.

I would like to see some substantiated proof about the tapes that goes beyond what I found on the first page of my search.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link? I've heard an audio clip of some BD's saying "Spread it around!" or something to that effect. The assumption is that they're spreading fuel for a fire. The documentary said it was the building of molotov cocktails to throw at the tanks. Sorry, I don't have a link. How there can be video of the BDs spreading fuel and lighting it I have no idea. The only camera inside the BD compound was used to film the kids asking if the Feds were going to kill them and what not.

Think just for a momenet. If you are making molotov bombs would you be spreading the fuel around? Seriously. No.

The BD's burned it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link? I've heard an audio clip of some BD's saying "Spread it around!" or something to that effect. The assumption is that they're spreading fuel for a fire. The documentary said it was the building of molotov cocktails to throw at the tanks. Sorry, I don't have a link. How there can be video of the BDs spreading fuel and lighting it I have no idea. The only camera inside the BD compound was used to film the kids asking if the Feds were going to kill them and what not. Think just for a momenet. If you are making molotov bombs would you be spreading the fuel around? Seriously. No. The BD's burned it.

That's true. What about passing the fuel to different BDs to pour into bottles?

Either way, the BDs didn't deserve the fate they got.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link? I've heard an audio clip of some BD's saying "Spread it around!" or something to that effect. The assumption is that they're spreading fuel for a fire. The documentary said it was the building of molotov cocktails to throw at the tanks. Sorry, I don't have a link. How there can be video of the BDs spreading fuel and lighting it I have no idea. The only camera inside the BD compound was used to film the kids asking if the Feds were going to kill them and what not. Think just for a momenet. If you are making molotov bombs would you be spreading the fuel around? Seriously. No. The BD's burned it. That's true. What about passing the fuel to different BDs to pour into bottles? Either way, the BDs didn't deserve the fate they got.

The BD's chose their own ending. Except of course the children.

They could have left at anytime.

And no, I don't believe LEO's or SF guys were firing on them preventing an escape during the fire.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel.  Really?  You know, I followed and still do follow this whole Branch Davidian thing rather closely and have NEVER seen this "audio and video" of which you speak.  Got a link? I've heard an audio clip of some BD's saying "Spread it around!" or something to that effect. The assumption is that they're spreading fuel for a fire. The documentary said it was the building of molotov cocktails to throw at the tanks. Sorry, I don't have a link. How there can be video of the BDs spreading fuel and lighting it I have no idea. The only camera inside the BD compound was used to film the kids asking if the Feds were going to kill them and what not. Think just for a momenet. If you are making molotov bombs would you be spreading the fuel around? Seriously. No. The BD's burned it. That's true. What about passing the fuel to different BDs to pour into bottles? Either way, the BDs didn't deserve the fate they got. The BD's chose their own ending. Except of course the children. They could have left at anytime. And no, I don't believe LEO's or SF guys were firing on them preventing an escape during the fire.

What makes you think not? The FLIR video seems pretty damning........

The guy who INVENTED FLIR says they were muzzle flashes shooting INTO the only exits the BD's had to get out -

It happened NO DOUBT ABOUT IT

Well goddamn, it's CONSPIRACY WEEK! at Arfcom: Cop-killing tax dodgers, flight 93, WTC7, and that old-school favorite, Waco! Now we just need a few threads (because one will never do) about alien antigravity devices and the dangers of flourinated water, and we'll be good to go.

I was there.
Both movies are propaganda pieces, nothing more.
The Danforth Investigation proved AGAIN, that the fire was set by the Branch Davidians on orders from Vernon Howell.
There was NO gunfire from goverment positions on 19 April. There was however, gunfire from the compound on that day--directed both at government vehicles and personnel as well as at Brach Davidians themselves. Howell was killed by a .30 caliber gsw to the head--fired by Steve schneider--who promptly killed himself with the same weapon. The children burned, were stabbed, bludgeoned, and shot during the fire--all by the Branch Davidians themselves--who, btw, had ALL day to send the children out. The children sent out previously, none blood related to Howell, were treated well and the Branch davidians knew that. ALL children that dies on 19 April were blood relation to vernon Howell.

The FLIR video proves nothing. There was a recreation of that day, using the same aircraft, under the same conditions, with davidian lawyers present--that showed that the flashes were not gunfire.

Again, I was there. I saw the Davidians that came out--heard what they said, and I know that vernon Howell ordered that fire. Misty Ferguson said, just before she was sedated and intubated because of her burns "Did he let the others go?"
Clive Doyle was crying hysterically, burned elbow to hand.
Ruth Riddle looked like the corner basket lady--filthy, unkempt, and acting very wierd.

Yeah, it all LOOKS damning on edited film meant for profit. The truth is not nearly as cool.

pato

Quoted: The guy who INVENTED FLIR says they were muzzle flashes shooting INTO the only exits the BD's had to get out - It happened NO DOUBT ABOUT IT

It's obvious that the guy who invented FLIR is just a conspiracy nut.

Quoted: Quoted: Is it that time of week again already? Well, excuse me for not seeing it in time to contribute to the other threads. I guess seeing Americans gassed and burnt to death by the government tends to piss me off a little bit.

Don't open fire on government agents and you wont be gassed and burnt to death.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is it that time of week again already? Well, excuse me for not seeing it in time to contribute to the other threads. I guess seeing Americans gassed and burnt to death by the government tends to piss me off a little bit. Don't open fire on government agents and you wont be gassed and burnt to death.

How many of those agents were wounded/killed by friendly fire?
Here's a hint to the ATF - don't use 9mm steel core - it doesn't just go through walls and hit women and children, it kills your own guys too.

Heres my take......

ATF wanted "BIG" headlines.....and they got them. Not exactly the outcome they wanted.

BDs were/are "Nut Bags".

BDs open fire first during the initial raid. I find it hard to believe that ATF fired the first shot. Don't buy it for a second. The BDs were waiting for them armed to the teeth. I know all about the doors that are missing but I'm guessing they had holes going both ways.

BDs started the fire that engulfed the compound.

Still undecided on the FLIR evidence regarding the rifle fire. If in fact federal agents were firing at unarmed persons trying to escape the fire than thye should be held accountable.

Waco. Rules of Engagement is one-sided....of course.

Koresh being dead is a good thing!!!! I don't lose a nights sleep over his demise.

Semper Fi,
M60-E4

Quoted: Heres my take...... ATF wanted "BIG" headlines.....and they got them. Not exactly the outcome they wanted. BDs were/are "Nut Bags". BDs open fire first during the initial raid. I find it hard to believe that ATF fired the first shot. Don't buy it for a second. The BDs were waiting for them armed to the teeth. I know all about the doors that are missing but I'm guessing they had holes going both ways. BDs started the fire that engulfed the compound. Still undecided on the FLIR evidence regarding the rifle fire. If in fact federal agents were firing at unarmed persons trying to escape the fire than thye should be held accountable. Waco. Rules of Engagement is one-sided....of course. Koresh being dead is a good thing!!!! I don't lose a nights sleep over his demise. Semper Fi, M60-E4 i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/M60-E4/Mk-43.jpg

Quoted: Well goddamn, it's CONSPIRACY WEEK! at Arfcom: Cop-killing tax dodgers, flight 93, WTC7, and that old-school favorite, Waco! Now we just need a few threads (because one will never do) about alien antigravity devices and the dangers of flourinated water, and we'll be good to go.

We already know they put nanomachines in the flourine for subtle mind control.

Here's a thing I found on the web about Waco, I think it was written my an ATF agent who was there, interesting read anyways.

Quoted: Here's a thing I found on the web about Waco, I think it was written my an ATF agent who was there, interesting read anyways.

while there are certainly two sides to a story, the following was truly laughable:

A local deputy sheriff received a report from a United Parcel Services driver who said that a package had broken apart on delivery, revealing inert grenade casings inside. The driver also reported earlier suspicious deliveries of firearms parts, casings and black powder.

let us think about this for a moment.  i, sirensong, own an inert grenade casing.  i bought it from butte army/navy in montana about 30 years ago.  if i wanted, i could go and buy about 200 more from the surplus store here in dallas.  pineapple or m67.

now, because my father and brother are nationally recognized lewis&clark re-enactors, who have been featured on state and national news services, TLC, the discovery channel, and a multi-episode PBS doc, my family owns black powder.

furthermore, i have received deliveries of firearm parts to my current address, including (gasp!) a collapsible stock that should be arriving on monday.

so for these reasons, i guess it is ok for the ATF to force a dynamic entry to my home at any time they wish, but especially right before they face congressional oversight.

brave new world we're living in.  

Quoted: A local deputy sheriff received a report from a United Parcel Services driver who said that a package had broken apart on delivery, revealing inert grenade casings inside. The driver also reported earlier suspicious deliveries of firearms parts, casings and black powder. let us think about this for a moment.  i, sirensong, own an inert grenade casing.  i bought it from butte army/navy in montana about 30 years ago.  if i wanted, i could go and buy about 200 more from the surplus store here in dallas.  pineapple or m67. now, because my father and brother are nationally recognized lewis&clark re-enactors, who have been featured on state and national news services, TLC, the discovery channel, and a multi-episode PBS doc, my family owns black powder. furthermore, i have received deliveries of firearm parts to my current address, including (gasp!) a collapsible stock that should be arriving on monday. so for these reasons, i guess it is ok for the ATF to force a dynamic entry to my home at any time they wish, but especially right before they face congressional oversight. brave new world we're living in.

Nothing about a brave new world.  What people miss is the fact the the UPS incident was the start of the investigation, not the sole incident that enable the ATF to obtain a search warrant for the property.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When the Cops have tanks, you lose… i2.tinypic.com/sq6o43.jpg Makes a good case for citizens with RPGs, doesn't it? IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with the 'picture' when the Police can deploy heavy armour against 'civilians'… ANdy

Thank the perpetual 'war on drugs' for blurring the lines between police & military hardware.

Quoted: What people miss is the fact the the UPS incident was the start of the investigation, not the sole incident that enable the ATF to obtain a search warrant for the property.

fair point.

Quoted: Quoted: Was it ever proven that koresh burned it down? Well the tinfoil crowd wants to believe that super secret special forces trained leo's snuck in, set the place on fire and extracted.

You are so full of shit on this one it isn't funny.

Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel. I hate what happened as much as everybody else. Probably more. In the end the BD's chose their fate.

Bullshit. Where's the "audio and video?" Did the Feds give you their "only" copy?

Quoted: They could have left at anytime. And no, I don't believe LEO's or SF guys were firing on them preventing an escape during the fire.

Heheheh. The gov't has done nothing but lie, steal, and coverup in the aftermath of Waco.

In order to get tanks, the .gov lied to the military about there being drugs in compound.

The .gov lied about not using pyrotechnics.

The .gov lied about shooting from helicopters.

The .gov lied about heat flashes on their thermal video being reflections of sunlight.

Those heat flashes were determined to be gunfire from agents. The gunfired was pointed in the direction of the compound.

And you're telling us the BDs had nothing to fear from the .gov at the scene?

Are you serious?

Tagged.

Quoted: Was it ever proven that koresh burned it down?

Would it matter? Most of the Davidians were already dead from overexposure to CS, and Blunt Force Trauma when the fire started....

Quoted: I though Posse Commitatus (spelling?) outlawed something like this? The military cannot be used to enforce domestic laws (even though CAG was there.) LE cannot use equipment borrowed from the military unless they can show that it will be used in an anti-drug raid. What is fucked up is a) you can use tanks if it is an anti-drug raid, and b) there was never any drug connection at waco. So if I'm reading this right, all the Feds have to do is say 'we think they have drugs' and they can deploy heavy metal against a civilian property? … I can see the potential for abuse here… ANdy

What it is, is that the military is allowed to be used for War. This is why we have a "War on Drugs" etc. It was specifically setup that way so that .mil assets could be used for drug interdiction, controlling trafficking etc. It also means that the .fed can call up the local military base and say:

ABC Agent: "We've got a tinfoil hat type holed up in his shack on a mountain in Idaho, and we'd like you to loiter some FLIR equipped aircraft over the area"

.Mil: "My command tells me to tell you to Pound Sand, Sir."

ABC Agent: "Oh, I forgot to mention that we have reason to believe there is a meth lab at this location..."

.Mil: "Oh, well in that case...."

Nobody died from overexposure to CS and no, it was never proven that the flashes on FLIR were gunfire--in fact it was proven that they weren't.

You guys should do a better job of research before you bite off on the entire conspiracy stuff.

pato

So, you are disputing the coroner's reports?

ETA: A representative from the company that supplied the CS to the .gov testified that lethal quantities were used on the Davidians....

Pato:

Please, do me a favor-I've been wanting to ask someone this question for long time:

It is widely held that .fed agents are the "cream of the crop", highly intelligent, educated, well trained and motivated. Since you were "there", how do you personally rationalize or justify that a simple failure to pay a $200 tax was the moral equivalent of the death of 91 people? Even if you buy the .gov's after-the-fact claims of child abuse, do you think the children are better off dead than abused?

Law enforcement is supposed to put a premium on human life, not act as soldiers who don't care if someone else's stuff gets broken.

No matter how you wash it, 91 people died because someone claimed Koresh failed to pay a $200 tax.

No words can describe the contempt I feel for agents who were there at the scene. An honorable man would have quit at the least.

Burn in hell.

Heheheh. That's funny. Reflections of light showing up on a thermal imaging camera video. That's funny.

And those flashes just happened to all be right next to where a government agent was standing...and just happened to be pointing in the direction of the compound.

LOL. Keep drinking the freaking Kool-aid.

My department has a thermal imaging camera. The only way a shard of glass is going to show up is if it's temperature is hotter than whatever is around it, and if it's hotter than everything around it, it sure as hell isn't going to show up on the camera for 1-2 seconds then vanish.

Get real people. Think about it. Thermal imaging is all about heat signature. There's no fucking way a shard of glass is going to heat up instantly...and then cool off instantly. "Light" doesn't show up on thermal imaging, that's why it's so useful.

Think about it.

.Gov: The sky is not blue, it is peanut butter.

AR15.com: Well, that settles it.

Quoted: Heheheh. That's funny. Reflections of light showing up on a thermal imaging camera video. That's funny. And those flashes just happened to all be right next to where a government agent was standing...and just happened to be pointing in the direction of the compound. LOL. Keep drinking the freaking Kool-aid. My department has a thermal imaging camera. The only way a shard of glass is going to show up is if it's temperature is hotter than whatever is around it, and if it's hotter than everything around it, it sure as hell isn't going to show up on the camera for 1-2 seconds then vanish. Get real people. Think about it. Thermal imaging is all about heat signature. There's no fucking way a shard of glass is going to heat up instantly...and then cool off instantly. "Light" doesn't show up on thermal imaging, that's why it's so useful. Think about it.

I think WG's talking about "Glint"

The test methodogy of the FLIR reenactment for congress has found the recreation to be a snow job. The English company who reviewed the FLIR tapes had a good reason to say that the flashes were "glint" and not gunfire because they have lucrative contracts providing Thermal Imaging products to our government.

No Bias there.....

Nice. A bunch of folks that know nothing except what they have read on the internet have all of the answers.
Why is that not surprising?
If you had actually read the coroner's reports--you will note that NONE of the dead have "overexposure to CS gas" listed as even a contributing cause of death.
Smoke inhalantion, blunt trauma from the building falling, GSW, stabbing (of a child)--but NO overexposure to CS.
If you will note that at least some of the "glints" come from locations in which there were no government agents--leads one to believe that either the glints are not gunfire as speculated, or that the gubmint agents were wearing special "stealth" uniforms that don't show up on FLIR. Haven't seen those outside of "Predator" the movie--but I imagine there are those that think they exist. were used at Waco, then immediately thrown back into the DARPA closet, never to be used again.

Vernon Howell wasn't the only one that was involved in illegal activity at the compound and it was a "search" warrant, not just a "go find Vernon Howell and bring him in" warrant. There were explosives, illegally converted weapons, etc at the compound.

Howell is responsible for everything that occurred there.
When he found out that ATF was coming---did he step outside and allow the search? No, he armed his flock and opened fire on ATF--if that isn't premeditated I don;t know what is.
The ONLY objective people present during the shootout on the 28th were the reporters, and they testified--in court--that ATF took fire from the compound even before they exited the trailers.

Answer me this--if it was such a conspiracy and crime as you claim--why hasn't a SINGLE officer or agent stepped forward to make the millions of dollars in a tell-all book? There were hundreds there at any given time--do you really believe that all can keep a secret?

I have one advantage on all of you conspiracy theorists--I was there. I know what happened--you get your information from biased sources on the net.
If the Danforth investigation was shown to be less than accurate in the FLIR reenactement--why didn't the DAVIDIAN lawyers that were present during the reeenactment raise a stink?

You folks are grasping at straws.
it goes something like this: You hate the ATF. Therefore, anything that makes the ATF or any of its' agents appear mean, rights trampling, jack booted thugs fits right into your view and is assimilated as the God's truth.
Anything that doesn't fit into that pre-formed opinion is discarded as gubmint propaganda.

Swell objectivity you have there.

pato

Thermal imaging registers heat, not light. If one of the agents on that video had flashlight and pointed it at the helicopter where the camera was located, it wouldn't have shown up, unless the flashlight was hotter than everything around it.

And it sure as heck wouldn't heat up instantly, stay hotter than everything around it for two seconds, then cool off instantly, and disappear from the thermal video.

There's a reason thermal cameras are used at night and during poor environmental conditions (such as when there's alot of smoke). If "light" showed up on a thermal camera, that camera would be FUCKING USELESS.

While that documentry sheds alot of light on situation, don't kid yourself: that show has its BIAS and if you can't wade through what is questionable and what could be fact, you really shouldn't watch it.

Some things were "hhmmm maybe .gov did mess up on that" some things I couldn't help to wonder "what about the other side of the argument" and you NEVER heard the other side.

Was the "bs" meter bell going off in your head at times watching that show?

Quoted: I have one advantage on all of you conspiracy theorists--I was there. I know what happened--you get your information from biased sources on the net. If the Danforth investigation was shown to be less than accurate in the FLIR reenactement--why didn't the DAVIDIAN lawyers that were present during the reeenactment raise a stink? You folks are grasping at straws. it goes something like this: You hate the ATF. Therefore, anything that makes the ATF or any of its' agents appear mean, rights trampling, jack booted thugs fits right into your view and is assimilated as the God's truth. Anything that doesn't fit into that pre-formed opinion is discarded as gubmint propaganda. Swell objectivity you have there.

The sky is peanut butter. Trust us. We were there.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's a thing I found on the web about Waco, I think it was written my an ATF agent who was there, interesting read anyways. while there are certainly two sides to a story, the following was truly laughable: A local deputy sheriff received a report from a United Parcel Services driver who said that a package had broken apart on delivery, revealing inert grenade casings inside. The driver also reported earlier suspicious deliveries of firearms parts, casings and black powder. let us think about this for a moment.  i, sirensong, own an inert grenade casing.  i bought it from butte army/navy in montana about 30 years ago.  if i wanted, i could go and buy about 200 more from the surplus store here in dallas.  pineapple or m67. now, because my father and brother are nationally recognized lewis&clark re-enactors, who have been featured on state and national news services, TLC, the discovery channel, and a multi-episode PBS doc, my family owns black powder. furthermore, i have received deliveries of firearm parts to my current address, including (gasp!) a collapsible stock that should be arriving on monday. so for these reasons, i guess it is ok for the ATF to force a dynamic entry to my home at any time they wish, but especially right before they face congressional oversight. brave new world we're living in.

The BD's were making and selling those "take a number" complaint plauqes using gernades.

This was used in part to get the search warrant.

Quoted: Nice. A bunch of folks that know nothing except what they have read on the internet have all of the answers. Why is that not surprising? If you had actually read the coroner's reports--you will note that NONE of the dead have "overexposure to CS gas" listed as even a contributing cause of death. Smoke inhalantion, blunt trauma from the building falling, GSW, stabbing (of a child)--but NO overexposure to CS. If you will note that at least some of the "glints" come from locations in which there were no government agents--leads one to believe that either the glints are not gunfire as speculated, or that the gubmint agents were wearing special "stealth" uniforms that don't show up on FLIR. Haven't seen those outside of "Predator" the movie--but I imagine there are those that think they exist. were used at Waco, then immediately thrown back into the DARPA closet, never to be used again. Vernon Howell wasn't the only one that was involved in illegal activity at the compound and it was a "search" warrant, not just a "go find Vernon Howell and bring him in" warrant. There were explosives, illegally converted weapons, etc at the compound. Howell is responsible for everything that occurred there. When he found out that ATF was coming---did he step outside and allow the search? No, he armed his flock and opened fire on ATF--if that isn't premeditated I don;t know what is. The ONLY objective people present during the shootout on the 28th were the reporters, and they testified--in court--that ATF took fire from the compound even before they exited the trailers. Answer me this--if it was such a conspiracy and crime as you claim--why hasn't a SINGLE officer or agent stepped forward to make the millions of dollars in a tell-all book? There were hundreds there at any given time--do you really believe that all can keep a secret? I have one advantage on all of you conspiracy theorists--I was there. I know what happened--you get your information from biased sources on the net. If the Danforth investigation was shown to be less than accurate in the FLIR reenactement--why didn't the DAVIDIAN lawyers that were present during the reeenactment raise a stink? You folks are grasping at straws. it goes something like this: You hate the ATF. Therefore, anything that makes the ATF or any of its' agents appear mean, rights trampling, jack booted thugs fits right into your view and is assimilated as the God's truth. Anything that doesn't fit into that pre-formed opinion is discarded as gubmint propaganda. Swell objectivity you have there. pato

The only problem I have with this post is that apparently you feel that it is quite ok to come into someones house & search just because you want to satisfy your own curiousity about wheather or not thier are guns.... I dont think ANYONE should have to prove to you that they are gunless, or what type of guns they have....

As far as Koresh, yeah, he was a nutjob....

But I honestly dont know any law abiding citizen who owns guns that feels it is ok for the ATF to go kicking in doors just because they wanna see your guns.... The ONLY damn reason the government wants to know who has what guns is because they all know they are a bunch of crooked bastards that deserved to be overthrown... They are trying to prevent another revolution... Plain & simple....

ONLY those who dont follow the law have ILLEGAL weapons....

And furthermore, the constitution says "guns that are in use & common to the military of its time"

It doesnt have DAMN thing to do with hunting.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was it ever proven that koresh burned it down? Well the tinfoil crowd wants to believe that super secret special forces trained leo's snuck in, set the place on fire and extracted. You are so full of shit on this one it isn't funny.

May not have been in ROE but I've seen/read this as one of the many theories of what happened that day. Again more theories.

Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel. I hate what happened as much as everybody else. Probably more. In the end the BD's chose their fate. Bullshit. Where's the "audio and video?" Did the Feds give you their "only" copy?

Wobble,
You really need to do some more research. Audio and infrared video is out there, others here have witnessed this material also.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel. I hate what happened as much as everybody else. Probably more. In the end the BD's chose their fate. Bullshit. Where's the "audio and video?" Did the Feds give you their "only" copy? Wobble, You really need to do some more research. Audio and infrared video is out there, others here have witnessed this material also.

You reference a source and then tell me    I've got to look it up to disprove it? Here's a hint, if you refer to a source, how about providing it yourself?

Quoted: Nice. A bunch of folks that know nothing except what they have read on the internet have all of the answers. Why is that not surprising? If you had actually read the coroner's reports--you will note that NONE of the dead have "overexposure to CS gas" listed as even a contributing cause of death. Smoke inhalantion, blunt trauma from the building falling, GSW, stabbing (of a child)--but NO overexposure to CS. If you will note that at least some of the "glints" come from locations in which there were no government agents--leads one to believe that either the glints are not gunfire as speculated, or that the gubmint agents were wearing special "stealth" uniforms that don't show up on FLIR. Haven't seen those outside of "Predator" the movie--but I imagine there are those that think they exist. were used at Waco, then immediately thrown back into the DARPA closet, never to be used again. Vernon Howell wasn't the only one that was involved in illegal activity at the compound and it was a "search" warrant, not just a "go find Vernon Howell and bring him in" warrant. There were explosives, illegally converted weapons, etc at the compound. Howell is responsible for everything that occurred there. When he found out that ATF was coming---did he step outside and allow the search? No, he armed his flock and opened fire on ATF--if that isn't premeditated I don;t know what is. The ONLY objective people present during the shootout on the 28th were the reporters, and they testified--in court--that ATF took fire from the compound even before they exited the trailers. Answer me this--if it was such a conspiracy and crime as you claim--why hasn't a SINGLE officer or agent stepped forward to make the millions of dollars in a tell-all book? There were hundreds there at any given time--do you really believe that all can keep a secret? I have one advantage on all of you conspiracy theorists--I was there. I know what happened--you get your information from biased sources on the net. If the Danforth investigation was shown to be less than accurate in the FLIR reenactement--why didn't the DAVIDIAN lawyers that were present during the reeenactment raise a stink? You folks are grasping at straws. it goes something like this: You hate the ATF. Therefore, anything that makes the ATF or any of its' agents appear mean, rights trampling, jack booted thugs fits right into your view and is assimilated as the God's truth. Anything that doesn't fit into that pre-formed opinion is discarded as gubmint propaganda. Swell objectivity you have there. pato

+ 1,000,000

The only fault I have with ATF was once they were compromised (and knew the "whack jobs" they were up against were heavily armed and praying for a armed confrontation with the government) they continued with the raid placing their agents in situation that would more than likely lead to an armed conflict. This placed (in order of importance) the children, the adult BDs who were unarmed, the ATF agents, and a distant last, the armed BDs in danger.

The raid/search warrant was legit. I have read the affidavit requesting the search warrant and the probable cause is clear and concise. I having nothing but respect for the ATF agents who were involved in the raid and find only fault with on scene judgements by ATF supervisors. Of course I was on a MEU in the Persian Gulf when this occured and was not present.


Semper Fi,
M60-E4

.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They have audio and video of the BD's setting the fires in multiple locations of the compound. The BD's burned it. Koresh wanted it to burn. He did not want to be sitting in the gray bar hotel. I hate what happened as much as everybody else. Probably more. In the end the BD's chose their fate. Bullshit. Where's the "audio and video?" Did the Feds give you their "only" copy? Wobble, You really need to do some more research. Audio and infrared video is out there, others here have witnessed this material also. You reference a source and then tell me    I've got to look it up to disprove it? Here's a hint, if you refer to a source, how about providing it yourself?

I could care less whether you believe it or not. ROE is not the whole truth about Waco.

Quoted: I could care less whether you believe it or not. ROE is not the whole truth about Waco.

That's fine and dandy. How about providing your source?

Nobody will ever resolve this.  It will go on and on and on.  The government has BS'd so many aspects it becomes impossible to believe them though.  Like a witness that lies several times on the stand but insists you should believe the overall thrust of thier testimony.  I don't know who started the fire. I don't know if infants can tolerate high concentrations of CS gas for hours.  I don't know if they were really firing back at the FBI when the fires started.   However, based on the things I can see with my own eyes, I will not accept the governments position as the truth when they keep lieing about various aspects of the event.

Was it worth starting an attack on a doomsday cult to make a public raid?  Hell no.  It was foolish beyond measure.

And furthermore, the constitution says "guns that are in use & common to the military of its time"

I have read the US Constiution numerous times and have never seen this statement written in its body. God knows I agree with it but it is not there.

Semper Fi,
M60-E4