Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 3/27/2006 8:52:05 AM EDT
March 27, 2006

Nation Sees Sharp Drop in Gun Dealers
http://www.huntingtonnews.net/national/060326-shns-guns.html

By Kevin Diaz
Minneapolis-St. Paul Star Tribune

Washington, DC (SHNS) -- In a little-noticed victory for gun control advocates across the nation , the number of gun dealers in the United States has plummeted 78 percent in the past 10 years as tens of thousands of home-based dealers surrendered their federal licenses.

The drop shows how the gun debate has moved from a national stage -- where gun control advocates lost congressional battles to ban assault weapons and to sue gun manufacturers -- to local zoning boards that are creating a growing web of fees and regulations that indirectly restrict firearms sales. "The gun control agenda has evolved from the halls of Congress and the courts," said Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the National Rifle Association (NRA). "Now we're seeing it evolve to the micro level in local municipalities."

But what looks like welcome news to gun opponents might just have driven gun sales off the books, as fewer personal gun sales are logged, vetted and tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

Whether that has led to more illegal gun trafficking is open to debate.

"Most of these guys (who are no longer licensed) were just home-based dealers who did gun shows on the weekends as a part-time job," said Mark Koscielski, who is fighting a zoning battle to hold on as the last remaining gun store in Minneapolis. "Now they revert to private collectors, so they're free to sell without federal background checks. They're private sales."

Once more numerous than gas stations, people who held the government's most basic gun-dealer license totaled nearly a quarter-million in 1994. Last year, the number fell to fewer than 55,000, according to a recent report by the nonprofit Violence Policy Center, based in Washington.

"The sharp drop in gun dealers is one of the most important -- and little noticed -- victories in the effort to reduce firearms violence in America," said Marty Langley, a policy analyst for the Violence Policy Center.

Gun enthusiasts dispute that the number of gun dealers -- or guns -- has much to do with the number of gun deaths in America, which declined by almost 25 percent between 1993 and 2003, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"It doesn't mean there are fewer guns out there to be purchased or manufactured or sold," said Hamline University law school Professor Joseph Olson, a gun rights advocate.

According to the ATF, the number of guns in the United States was at an all-time high last year, with an estimated 223 million firearms. Experts say sales continue to increase in commercial gun stores.

But both sides agree that several factors converged to bring about a decline in the number of licensed gun dealers: First, Clinton-era reforms increased fees from $30 to $200 for three-year licenses, discouraging casual gun collectors who rarely bought or sold firearms. Applicants also were required to submit photographs and fingerprints.

Most important, the ATF began strictly enforcing a provision in the 1968 Gun Control Act stipulating that license holders be "engaged in the business." Suddenly, thousands of home-based gun dealers found themselves disqualified for a federal license by virtue of local residential zoning codes.

"When you had to prove that you could be allowed to exist by zoning, there were a lot of guys and women who had to give up their licenses," said Brian Van Kleek, owner of the Wolf's Den Gun Shop in Hugo, Minn.

Among those fighting to keep a license is Koscielski, whose gun shop was found to be in violation of Minneapolis zoning codes earlier this month. He says Minneapolis and St. Paul, like most major cities, "have virtually zoned out gun shops."

The ATF estimated that in 1992 as many as 74 percent of Type 1 federal firearms licenses -- the basic license to sell guns -- were used to operate out of residences.

That number is now down to slightly more than 50 percent.

Pushing back against the pressure, the NRA has successfully lobbied Congress for the past two years to hold back ATF money used to enforce licensing provisions based on a "lack of business activity" -- basically, provisions targeting home-based dealers who have run afoul of local zoning ordinances.

The NRA argues the enforcement effort is misdirected. "Why would you squander a very finite amount of resources on law-abiding citizens?" asked Arulanandam. "Put your focus on the bad guys."

Gun rights advocates emphasize that most guns used in crime are obtained illegally, not through licensed gun dealers, the majority of whom sell fewer than three guns a year.

"They're selling them to their poker buddies, they aren't selling them to criminals," Olson said. "The crooks have all the guns they want."

But in its report this month, the Violence Policy Center argues that " 'kitchen table' dealers remain a source for criminal gun traffickers," and that the NRA's opposition could eventually reverse the downward trend in gun-dealer licenses.

A 2000 ATF report said that licensed dealers are involved in less than 10 percent of trafficking investigations, but that cases involving license holders "were associated with the largest total number of illegally diverted firearms."
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:52:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:54:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
March 27, 2006

Nation Sees Sharp Drop in Gun Dealers
http://www.huntingtonnews.net/national/060326-shns-guns.html

By Kevin Diaz
Minneapolis-St. Paul REDStar Tribune

Washington, DC (SHNS) -- In a little-noticed victory for gun control advocates across the nation , the number of gun dealers in the United States has plummeted 78 percent in the past 10 years as tens of thousands of home-based dealers surrendered their federal licenses.

The drop shows how the gun debate has moved from a national stage -- where gun control advocates lost congressional battles to ban assault weapons and to sue gun manufacturers -- to local zoning boards that are creating a growing web of fees and regulations that indirectly restrict firearms sales. "The gun control agenda has evolved from the halls of Congress and the courts," said Andrew Arulanandam, director of public affairs for the National Rifle Association (NRA). "Now we're seeing it evolve to the micro level in local municipalities."

But what looks like welcome news to gun opponents might just have driven gun sales off the books, as fewer personal gun sales are logged, vetted and tracked by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

Whether that has led to more illegal gun trafficking is open to debate.

"Most of these guys (who are no longer licensed) were just home-based dealers who did gun shows on the weekends as a part-time job," said Mark Koscielski, who is fighting a zoning battle to hold on as the last remaining gun store in Minneapolis. "Now they revert to private collectors, so they're free to sell without federal background checks. They're private sales."

Once more numerous than gas stations, people who held the government's most basic gun-dealer license totaled nearly a quarter-million in 1994. Last year, the number fell to fewer than 55,000, according to a recent report by the nonprofit Violence Policy Center, based in Washington.

"The sharp drop in gun dealers is one of the most important -- and little noticed -- victories in the effort to reduce firearms violence in America," said Marty Langley, a policy analyst for the Violence Policy Center.

Gun enthusiasts dispute that the number of gun dealers -- or guns -- has much to do with the number of gun deaths in America, which declined by almost 25 percent between 1993 and 2003, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

"It doesn't mean there are fewer guns out there to be purchased or manufactured or sold," said Hamline University law school Professor Joseph Olson, a gun rights advocate.

According to the ATF, the number of guns in the United States was at an all-time high last year, with an estimated 223 million firearms. Experts say sales continue to increase in commercial gun stores.

But both sides agree that several factors converged to bring about a decline in the number of licensed gun dealers: First, Clinton-era reforms increased fees from $30 to $200 for three-year licenses, discouraging casual gun collectors who rarely bought or sold firearms. Applicants also were required to submit photographs and fingerprints.

Most important, the ATF began strictly enforcing a provision in the 1968 Gun Control Act stipulating that license holders be "engaged in the business." Suddenly, thousands of home-based gun dealers found themselves disqualified for a federal license by virtue of local residential zoning codes.

"When you had to prove that you could be allowed to exist by zoning, there were a lot of guys and women who had to give up their licenses," said Brian Van Kleek, owner of the Wolf's Den Gun Shop in Hugo, Minn.

Among those fighting to keep a license is Koscielski, whose gun shop was found to be in violation of Minneapolis zoning codes earlier this month. He says Minneapolis and St. Paul, like most major cities, "have virtually zoned out gun shops."

The ATF estimated that in 1992 as many as 74 percent of Type 1 federal firearms licenses -- the basic license to sell guns -- were used to operate out of residences.

That number is now down to slightly more than 50 percent.

Pushing back against the pressure, the NRA has successfully lobbied Congress for the past two years to hold back ATF money used to enforce licensing provisions based on a "lack of business activity" -- basically, provisions targeting home-based dealers who have run afoul of local zoning ordinances.

The NRA argues the enforcement effort is misdirected. "Why would you squander a very finite amount of resources on law-abiding citizens?" asked Arulanandam. "Put your focus on the bad guys."

Gun rights advocates emphasize that most guns used in crime are obtained illegally, not through licensed gun dealers, the majority of whom sell fewer than three guns a year.

"They're selling them to their poker buddies, they aren't selling them to criminals," Olson said. "The crooks have all the guns they want."

But in its report this month, the Violence Policy Center argues that " 'kitchen table' dealers remain a source for criminal gun traffickers," and that the NRA's opposition could eventually reverse the downward trend in gun-dealer licenses.

A 2000 ATF report said that licensed dealers are involved in less than 10 percent of trafficking investigations, but that cases involving license holders "were associated with the largest total number of illegally diverted firearms."



That rag is one of the worst one sided papers in the country.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:56:14 AM EDT
this is how they are going to get us. i doubt they will be attacking guns any more, at least not as anything more than a diversion. They will go after ammo and gun dealers because there is no direct constitutional protection for them.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 8:59:21 AM EDT
I wonder how many FFL retails have been replaced by Curio FFL's?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:37:38 AM EDT
It's a damn shame.

America was a much better place before the liberals started getting their way.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:40:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2006 9:42:29 AM EDT by Grunteled]
Wasn't this a big priority for the wonderful folks at the ATF at one time? Cracking down on "kitchen table dealers"?

I guess they have done their work well, helped along by the little tyrants that make up most city counsels.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:47:11 AM EDT
One of Bill Clintons stated goals was to reduce the amount of FFL's in this nation drastically. Under the heels of the ATF's Jackboots if necessary
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:52:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
One of Bill Clintons stated goals was to reduce the amount of FFL's in this nation drastically. Under the heels of the ATF's Jackboots Clown boots if necessary




Fixed it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 9:53:09 AM EDT
Free enterprise, the internet and wally world.......FUCK MOM AND POP !!!!
That and they don't take into account the bad attitudes of some of these dealers.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:11:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
Free enterprise, the internet and wally world.......FUCK MOM AND POP !!!!
That and they don't take into account the bad attitudes of some of these dealers.



When was the last time Wally World did a transfer on a internet order for you?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:21:03 AM EDT
I saw that info over the weekend.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:28:16 AM EDT
This has more to do with the internet than anything else.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:31:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Wasn't this a big priority for the wonderful folks at the ATF at one time? Cracking down on "kitchen table dealers"?

I guess they have done their work well, helped along by the little tyrants that make up most city counsels.



During the Clinton Administration the ATF had goals of how many FFLs they would bully into surrendering their licenses. They would pick out kitchen table dealers and basically try to terrify them into turning in their tags.

I agree that Wal Mart has killed off a lot of small town dealers, the dealer price for a little guy on the low end guns that Wal Mart sells is often the same as Wal Mart's shelf price; but that's not where all the little kitchen table guys went.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:37:43 AM EDT
I used to know many home-based dealers in my area in the 80's. Now there is, I think, one left and he is retiring soon.

Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:39:02 AM EDT
or the gov just dont know about it
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:42:12 AM EDT
I didn't renew the FFL after the price went from $30 to $300, thanks to clinton.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:43:50 AM EDT
and the prices of everything is going up as well.


Link Posted: 3/27/2006 10:46:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:
I didn't renew the FFL after the price went from $30 to $300, thanks to clinton.



That is reason#1.

If you are just keeping an FFL to order your own guns, you have to buy a lot per year to justify that price.

If it was still only $30, I would probably get my own Dealer FFL.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:13:20 AM EDT
In my town growing up almost all of the gun dealers were based out of their home. You built a relationship with them over years. I was just a kid but I remeber going to one guy or the other with my friend's father. I knew a lot of them and thought it was "cool."

But in the early 1990s, probably around 1993 or 1994 the township began enforcing zoning codes and almost all of the FFLs dried up. I'm sure this conincided with the ATF's FFL license price increase.

Next thing you knew these guys were gone, out of business. One guy though spent the money to setup a shop to keep going. He's still there today, keeping the odd hours he had when he ran it out of his house. I still go and see him and every now and then buy something off of him. Nice guy, prcies are a little high, but still a really nice guy and has a great attitude towards customers.

He is all that is left out of many FFLs that were in my town. Sure, if you go one community over there are two there, but that is only two out of maybe 20 that once were there. Sad how things have changed.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:37:50 AM EDT
Rise in fees and internet has led to the decline.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:45:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Rise in fees and internet has led to the decline.



How's the internet killing the guys with no inventory? I always need someone in the area to transfer my guns and lots of shops HATE doing transfers if they carry inventory. That's just the thing for the home based guy I'd think. It does make it hard to cover the cost of the license at $300 though.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:47:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
In my town growing up almost all of the gun dealers were based out of their home. You built a relationship with them over years. I was just a kid but I remeber going to one guy or the other with my friend's father. I knew a lot of them and thought it was "cool."

But in the early 1990s, probably around 1993 or 1994 the township began enforcing zoning codes and almost all of the FFLs dried up. I'm sure this conincided with the ATF's FFL license price increase.

Next thing you knew these guys were gone, out of business. One guy though spent the money to setup a shop to keep going. He's still there today, keeping the odd hours he had when he ran it out of his house. I still go and see him and every now and then buy something off of him. Nice guy, prcies are a little high, but still a really nice guy and has a great attitude towards customers.

He is all that is left out of many FFLs that were in my town. Sure, if you go one community over there are two there, but that is only two out of maybe 20 that once were there. Sad how things have changed.



You know, this brings up a point: what prevents the government from saying,"guns present a clear danger to society, and although possession of them is protected by the 2nd Amendment, we will be increasing the cost to become an FFL to 10,000 USD per annum."?
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:52:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
In my town growing up almost all of the gun dealers were based out of their home. You built a relationship with them over years. I was just a kid but I remeber going to one guy or the other with my friend's father. I knew a lot of them and thought it was "cool."

But in the early 1990s, probably around 1993 or 1994 the township began enforcing zoning codes and almost all of the FFLs dried up. I'm sure this conincided with the ATF's FFL license price increase.

Next thing you knew these guys were gone, out of business. One guy though spent the money to setup a shop to keep going. He's still there today, keeping the odd hours he had when he ran it out of his house. I still go and see him and every now and then buy something off of him. Nice guy, prcies are a little high, but still a really nice guy and has a great attitude towards customers.

He is all that is left out of many FFLs that were in my town. Sure, if you go one community over there are two there, but that is only two out of maybe 20 that once were there. Sad how things have changed.



You know, this brings up a point: what prevents the government from saying,"guns present a clear danger to society, and although possession of them is protected by the 2nd Amendment, we will be increasing the cost to become an FFL to 10,000 USD per annum."?



Nothing really. Just fear of political repercussions from doing it all at once.
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:52:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2006 11:53:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By wgjhsafT:
In my town growing up almost all of the gun dealers were based out of their home. You built a relationship with them over years. I was just a kid but I remeber going to one guy or the other with my friend's father. I knew a lot of them and thought it was "cool."

But in the early 1990s, probably around 1993 or 1994 the township began enforcing zoning codes and almost all of the FFLs dried up. I'm sure this conincided with the ATF's FFL license price increase.

Next thing you knew these guys were gone, out of business. One guy though spent the money to setup a shop to keep going. He's still there today, keeping the odd hours he had when he ran it out of his house. I still go and see him and every now and then buy something off of him. Nice guy, prcies are a little high, but still a really nice guy and has a great attitude towards customers.

He is all that is left out of many FFLs that were in my town. Sure, if you go one community over there are two there, but that is only two out of maybe 20 that once were there. Sad how things have changed.



You know, this brings up a point: what prevents the government from saying,"guns present a clear danger to society, and although possession of them is protected by the 2nd Amendment, we will be increasing the cost to become an FFL to 10,000 USD per annum."?



Nothing really. Just fear of political repercussions from doing it all at once.



I probably shouldn't of mentioned that idea anyway, some DU'er is probably here copying and pasting it in emails to Boxer,Feinswein,etc.
Top Top