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Posted: 3/23/2006 6:47:13 AM EDT
Just curious if actively searching could a modern destroyer see an F22 coming? How bout a stealthy cruise missile? I understand the Aegis system can crank out some serious wattage and with the sea being relatively featureless it should make the detection a bit easier ( or ?)

How safe will a ship be in the future with stealthy threats?

( do we even have stealthy cruise missiles yet??)
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:50:16 AM EDT
I suspect the answer is classified.

Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:51:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
I suspect the answer is classified.





+1
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:56:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
I suspect the answer is classified.




But that answer is no fun and not much of a debate.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:57:23 AM EDT
Stealth is not a cloaking device. Any radar can detect a stealthy object, it's just a matter of how close the stealthy object gets before it is detected.

How close can they get? Well now, that IS classified.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:58:37 AM EDT
Can the Phalanx shoot down pigeons?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 6:59:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 7:00:19 AM EDT by DnPRK]
Stealth airplanes are designed against threat emitters that operate in certain frequency bands. If a new emitter uses a frequency the stealth has not been designed to counter, then it will be detected.

Also, stealth reduces the return to the threat emitter, but doesn't totally eliminate the return. Return is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance. If a stealthy airplane is close enough to any emitter, it will be detected.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:03:53 AM EDT
So we're in the destroyer and in an area expecting a threat. We're actively looking for bad guys and have been for a few days. The Raptor equivalent from the PRC decides to light up the ship. Is the destroyer fukked or not?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:07:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
So we're in the destroyer and in an area expecting a threat. We're actively looking for bad guys and have been for a few days. The Raptor equivalent from the PRC decides to light up the ship. Is the destroyer fukked or not?


That's an impossible question to answer without details that would encroach into the realm of classification.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:12:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
So we're in the destroyer and in an area expecting a threat. We're actively looking for bad guys and have been for a few days. The Raptor equivalent from the PRC decides to light up the ship. Is the destroyer fukked or not?


That's an impossible question to answer without details that would encroach into the realm of classification.



Then lets simplify further, are surface ships obsolete in all out war?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:20:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
So we're in the destroyer and in an area expecting a threat. We're actively looking for bad guys and have been for a few days. The Raptor equivalent from the PRC decides to light up the ship. Is the destroyer fukked or not?


That's an impossible question to answer without details that would encroach into the realm of classification.



Then lets simplify further, are surface ships obsolete in all out war?


Absolutely not. Remember stealth can work both ways.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:24:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 7:27:08 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
My concern is a carrier battle group being attacked before they know it's coming. I dont know how many personnel are on all of those ships but losing a major force would be a serious hit to the US. I guess I equate stealth as the new gatling gun. It's the new and dangerous tool that can shake things up.

As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:27:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Can the Phalanx shoot down pigeons?





lol, well I would assume that if the phalanx can track it's own stream of rounds, i could track a pigeon... That would be great, pulling into nyc and dropping seagulls like it was their jobs...
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:43:25 AM EDT
Don't anti ship missles have a rediculous range on them (over the horizon)? Why would an F-22 NEED to get near an enemy ship?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:57:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clement:
Don't anti ship missles have a rediculous range on them (over the horizon)? Why would an F-22 NEED to get near an enemy ship?



...Because to actually see the looks on the enemy's faces is well worth the risk.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:58:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clement:
Don't anti ship missles have a rediculous range on them (over the horizon)? Why would an F-22 NEED to get near an enemy ship?



The ocean is a big place. You have to find them before you can sink them.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:02:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DnPRK:
Stealth airplanes are designed against threat emitters that operate in certain frequency bands. If a new emitter uses a frequency the stealth has not been designed to counter, then it will be detected.

Also, stealth reduces the return to the threat emitter, but doesn't totally eliminate the return. Return is proportional to the inverse of the square of the distance. If a stealthy airplane is close enough to any emitter, it will be detected.



I thought with waves it was the inverse cube of the distance
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:47:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
My concern is a carrier battle group being attacked before they know it's coming. I dont know how many personnel are on all of those ships but losing a major force would be a serious hit to the US. I guess I equate stealth as the new gatling gun. It's the new and dangerous tool that can shake things up.

As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.


Don't worry about carrier battle groups, they can take care of themselves pretty well.

You're not dealing with a single point. Battle groups have a layered defense. But let's say the target manages to get within weapons range without being detected. As soon as it opens its weapons bay doors everyone knows its there. The weapon can then be detected and engaged. The aircraft can also be engaged under certain circumstances. As for stealthy cruise missiles, they would be detected and destroyed in time. For this reason, cruise missiles use other methods than stealth to throw the dog off the scent.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:49:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Can the Phalanx shoot down pigeons?



Whatever you decide, we won't believe w/o video.

The Navy is probably more interested in seagulls.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:51:27 AM EDT
it can see the F-22 from 87 miles away
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 8:58:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 8:59:34 AM EDT by fook]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Can the Phalanx shoot down pigeons?



Sure.


Ever seen one around a carrier at sea?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:03:28 AM EDT
men in black will be knocking on your door momentarily
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:06:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
You're not dealing with a single point. Battle groups have a layered defense.


They used to. I was reading a deployment announcement the other day detailing the ships attached to an underway CVBG. Along with the CVN, there was one Tico, an Arleigh Burke, an O.H.Perry, an AOE, and an Los Angeles SSN.

How much of an ASW and AAW screen can you put up with that few vessels?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:09:52 AM EDT
DDX SPY-3 RADAR

The radar suite will consist of a dual band radar for horizon and volume search, an L-band volume search radar (VSR) integrated with the AN/SPY-3 multi-function radar already being developed by Raytheon for the US Navy. The two radars are to be integrated at waveform level for enhanced surveillance and tracking capability. The AN/SPY-3 Multi-Function Radar (MFR) is an X-band active phased-array radar designed to detect low-observable anti-ship cruise missiles and support fire-control illumination for the ESSM and Standard Missiles.

LINK

another good link
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:20:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
My concern is a carrier battle group being attacked before they know it's coming. I dont know how many personnel are on all of those ships but losing a major force would be a serious hit to the US. I guess I equate stealth as the new gatling gun. It's the new and dangerous tool that can shake things up.

As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.



Red Storm Rising?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:24:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.



to a degree, yes, BUT, that's oversimplification. the majority of stealth is involved in re-directing the radar AWAY from the original reciever. if the enemy could work it logistically they could triangulate the aircraft from different radar stations positioned at different locations. if they all see a marble on the screen, that's fine BUT if that same marble is moving at 500kts at 3000ft, they can track it like that
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:24:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
My concern is a carrier battle group being attacked before they know it's coming. I dont know how many personnel are on all of those ships but losing a major force would be a serious hit to the US. I guess I equate stealth as the new gatling gun. It's the new and dangerous tool that can shake things up.

As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.



Red Storm Rising?



Naa.. radar near cities had to use some signal processing to ignore objects moving less than 100 miles an hour or they'd display freeway traffic..... or something like that.

I'd recon half of a radar system is signal processing to make sence of the returns.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:24:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SnoopisTDI:

Red Storm Rising?



Dont recall if I've read that one but if you recall "executive orders"
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:25:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By dport:
You're not dealing with a single point. Battle groups have a layered defense.


They used to. I was reading a deployment announcement the other day detailing the ships attached to an underway CVBG. Along with the CVN, there was one Tico, an Arleigh Burke, an O.H.Perry, an AOE, and an Los Angeles SSN.

How much of an ASW and AAW screen can you put up with that few vessels?


A lot!

That's all I'm going to say about that.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:26:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/23/2006 9:26:49 AM EDT by NimmerMehr]

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
As I understand stealth aircraft most radars see somthing so small it's ignored or squelched out. To allow it to see the aircraft the radar would be impossibly cluttered with other minor objects. Please feel free to correct me if that's wrong.



to a degree, yes, BUT, that's oversimplification. the majority of stealth is involved in re-directing the radar AWAY from the original reciever. if the enemy could work it logistically they could triangulate the aircraft from different radar stations positioned at different locations. if they all see a marble on the screen, that's fine BUT if that same marble is moving at 500kts at 3000ft, they can track it like that



Track the turblent air left in the wake... "why is there a small tornado moving horzontaly at 500kts?"
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:34:52 AM EDT
And of course there's the minor detail of how the missile knows what it's aiming at.... stealth or not it's zipping towards a moving target so it'll need radar of it's own at least occasionally to adjust itself - and that means the moving ship will know something lit it up. Ditto with the Raptor... how will a big jet find a destroyer far out at sea without some look-down sensor?

In the end though, it comes down to what you've got.... will a Raptor ever have enough of a bang to sink a destroyer? most tests of cruise missiles feature a broadside hit...but what if the 'target' in question turns its bow towards the on coming threat...i.e. takes one in the "nose" - will it still sink?

It's likely that in the event itself we'll be talking multiple targets coming on line ... so maybe the first jet/missile will get close before being spotted, but I doubt the rest will.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:37:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
And of course there's the minor detail of how the missile knows what it's aiming at.... stealth or not it's zipping towards a moving target so it'll need radar of it's own at least occasionally to adjust itself - and that means the moving ship will know something lit it up. Ditto with the Raptor... how will a big jet find a destroyer far out at sea without some look-down sensor?

In the end though, it comes down to what you've got.... will a Raptor ever have enough of a bang to sink a destroyer? most tests of cruise missiles feature a broadside hit...but what if the 'target' in question turns its bow towards the on coming threat...i.e. takes one in the "nose" - will it still sink?

It's likely that in the event itself we'll be talking multiple targets coming on line ... so maybe the first jet/missile will get close before being spotted, but I doubt the rest will.



i thought most modern anti-ship missles are designed to hug the surface and then pop up and hit from above?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:29:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
I was reading a deployment announcement the other day detailing the ships attached to an underway CVBG. Along with the CVN, there was one Tico, an Arleigh Burke, an O.H.Perry, an AOE, and an Los Angeles SSN.

How much of an ASW and AAW screen can you put up with that few vessels?



A lot!



Two Aegis ships? Enough to require more than a casual attempt to overload them. The other three ships have point defense options to throw in as well.

NTM
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 4:58:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By dport:
You're not dealing with a single point. Battle groups have a layered defense.


They used to. I was reading a deployment announcement the other day detailing the ships attached to an underway CVBG. Along with the CVN, there was one Tico, an Arleigh Burke, an O.H.Perry, an AOE, and an Los Angeles SSN.

How much of an ASW and AAW screen can you put up with that few vessels?


A lot!

That's all I'm going to say about that.


Fair enough. I'll bow to your more informed opinion.

I figure that the Navy can get away with this force level because there is almost no ASW or ASuW threat to a CVBG in the blue water anymore. Now that I think about it, the ASW capability of those ships (along with the SSN) is very impressive.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:39:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
And of course there's the minor detail of how the missile knows what it's aiming at.... stealth or not it's zipping towards a moving target so it'll need radar of it's own at least occasionally to adjust itself - and that means the moving ship will know something lit it up. Ditto with the Raptor... how will a big jet find a destroyer far out at sea without some look-down sensor?

In the end though, it comes down to what you've got.... will a Raptor ever have enough of a bang to sink a destroyer? most tests of cruise missiles feature a broadside hit...but what if the 'target' in question turns its bow towards the on coming threat...i.e. takes one in the "nose" - will it still sink?

It's likely that in the event itself we'll be talking multiple targets coming on line ... so maybe the first jet/missile will get close before being spotted, but I doubt the rest will.



Actually I read that the Raptor can use the enemy radar against it. You looking for the Raptor is all it needs to target you.
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