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Posted: 3/20/2006 11:37:13 AM EDT
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:39:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??

I wouldn't call an EOTech, Aimpoint of ACOG junk. They are for quick target aquisition not match grade accuracy.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:42:11 AM EDT
I have used Irons my whole life and have outshot many who had scopes. I finally took the plunge and got an EoTech. I like it HANDS DOWN over Irons. Its faster and IMO better than Irons. My next build will be a Recon with a scope
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:42:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??



As seen on TV! They only know what they see!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:44:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??

I wouldn't call an EOTech, Aimpoint of ACOG junk. They are for quick target aquisition not match grade accuracy.



Nope all three are great, carried a M68 CCO on my A4, its a great setup but I see alot of other AR guys mounting some weird stuff on their AR's.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:49:04 AM EDT
1911Greg,

Man, I hear ya, as I am an A2 fan for sure, however, the A4 makes the rifle so much MORE configurable that it simply topples the A2, that configurability will equate to performance and as you well know, performance is everything.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:50:29 AM EDT
Mounting optics on the carry handle is retarded... the flattop is the best thing to happen to the M16 platform in ages.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:53:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??[/quote\]



Jealous much? Don't be a hater.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:54:01 AM EDT
Because I like to have my real steel setup the same way as my Classic Army! It all in teh muscle memory, and running all those ops.. So when teh SHTF, I'm not going to pause when I have to "draw down" on some 88's at teh car wash! That and the chicks dig it!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:54:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 11:55:40 AM EDT by dalesimpson]

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
Mounting optics on the carry handle is retarded... the flattop is the best thing to happen to the M16 platform in ages.



I couldn't agree more. I have an "A4" but all I have mounted on it is a detachable carry handle, although I do have an Aimpoint that I can mount on it if I want. I personally love the Holosight/BUIS setup I have on my midlength.

ETA The "optic junk" is outstanding for close quarters stuff like 3 gun, and when I have to engage longer distance targets I just use the BUIS through the "optic junk".
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:54:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:55:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2006 11:57:24 AM EDT by Hokie]
tag for luke warm entertainment
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:58:54 AM EDT
Once you go DOT you'll never go back.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:02:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:03:02 PM EDT
My carbine:


My rifle:
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:06:07 PM EDT
I shot a bit of High power a few years ago and appreciate the ability to shoot well with iron at range. That said, I run an EOTech on my M16A2 for convoys as there is no substitute for speed in gaining target. I would rather have an A4 with BUIS but you run what you brung.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:08:45 PM EDT
I bought mine cause I saw it on TV!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:10:45 PM EDT
Because performance is everything.
That said, you should become proficient with irons before graduating to an optic.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:11:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
My carbine:
nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album03/DSCF0833.sized.jpg

My rifle:
nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album03/AR15A2.sized.jpg



Nice air$ofts!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:11:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Because performance is everything.
That said, you should become proficient with irons before graduating to an optic.



My thoughts exactly.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:11:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I am a 31 year old complete newb to rifles. I have 2 lowers on the way and plan to learn on iron sites for at least 6 months until i even think optics.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:13:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I'm sure that with your superiority, you can outshoot all of us.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
My carbine:
nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album03/DSCF0833.sized.jpg

My rifle:
nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/album03/AR15A2.sized.jpg



Nice air$ofts!!



Don't make me break out the MP-661K.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:17:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I'm sure that with your superiority, you can outshoot all of us.



no i'm just saying I think to many people are getting away from the basics of marksmanship and just want to line a dot up and go.

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:19:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??

I wouldn't call an EOTech, Aimpoint of ACOG junk. They are for quick target aquisition not match grade accuracy.

/\
Rifles have evolved and improved throughout their entire history. Flat tops and optics is just part of the natural progression. A2s are a thing of the past.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:22:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I'm sure that with your superiority, you can outshoot all of us.




Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:22:36 PM EDT
New craze? This has been going on for at least 6 years.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:22:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??



A2 are to A4's like 1911's are to HK's

It's a thing called evolution
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:28:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hokie:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??



A2 are to A4's like 1911's are to HK's

It's a thing called evolution



You mean A2's have better sites, feel and trigger pull

im just being a smart ass I own a USP and a 1911 and a glock and a sig and a smith and a bunch more...

Personally I think the 1911 and a HK are comparable opponents
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:30:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
...



Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:33:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I'm sure that with your superiority, you can outshoot all of us.



no i'm just saying I think to many people are getting away from the basics of marksmanship and just want to line a dot up and go.




If someone is trying to do me harm, that is exactly what I want. That is why there is an EOTech on my home defense carbine.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:39:59 PM EDT
Greg, I can't see my front site post. God Bless my optics.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:40:23 PM EDT
The 20" A2 is great as a target rifle but that is about it, although being simple and rugged means it still has a place as a SHTF rifle/carbine.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:40:33 PM EDT
Optics and aiming systems have massively improved since 1960. They aren't nearly as fragile as they used to be, and the new designs like Aimpoints and EOTechs have much faster target acquisition than irons.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:40:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:50:04 PM EDT
First, tell us what are the "junk" or weird optics you see people using.

Then, explain how BRM is completely out the window by using an optic.

The principles of breach and trigger control still apply. The only thing you are changing is the need to line up a front sight post inside of a rear ghost ring, which is pretty easily learned. You act like an optic is an automatic targeting and fire system.

The fact is, it's REALLY nice being able to actually SEE something beyond about 250 yards when using a magnified optic, or being able to simply put a dot on the COM and hit the target twice as fast as compared to iron sights.

Welcome to the 21st century.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:52:15 PM EDT
I thought this was about A-4's..lol

Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:56:52 PM EDT
Because it is 200.00 + for BUIS
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:59:25 PM EDT


I like knowing that if my AR gets banged around that my iron sights will still be intact.

Quote from my buddy 'easy with that, you will crack the fiber optic inside'
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:01:16 PM EDT
Wait wait wait....

This is still ARFCOM right?

Were talking about guns!? EEEKKK!!!

guns are icky!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:12:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Maxwell71:
Because it is 200.00 + for BUIS



Wow. I have a few BUISs I want to sell to you. Where in the name of all that is holy are you shopping that BUISs are $200+???
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:13:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.


BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED!



I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??



87!


Well markm didn't show up so somebody had to say it.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:13:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Greg, I can't see my front site post. God Bless my optics.



No backup irons? another problem I see all the time when batteries die at least EO techs take double A I hate trying to find aimpoint batteries!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:14:38 PM EDT
because buying skill is fun and easy
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:17:19 PM EDT
I do because I like the ARMs40 better then an A2 or A1 sights, even though its basically an A2. After having my AR in this config for around 2 years, I finally dropped the money on a eotech 512.

I'm glad you can outshoot me with irons... It gives you something to brag about on the internet....
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:21:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LVMIKE:

I'm glad you can outshoot me with irons... It gives you something to brag about on the internet....



I'm just saying alot of the guys at the range with AR's cant hit stuff past 100meters
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:21:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

no i'm just saying I think to many people are getting away from the basics of marksmanship and just want to line a dot up and go.




When the shit jumps off, simpler is better.

If you're trying to say that some people are neglecting to learn how to use irons in favor of using optics exclusively, I agree.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:24:26 PM EDT
Trijicon ACOG

Major General J.N. Mattis, Commanding General of the 1st Marine Division during Operation Iraqi Freedom, called them "the biggest improvement in lethality for the Marine infantryman since the introduction of the M1 Garand in WWII."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/08/marines-pleased-so-usmc-orders-660m-more-acog-rifle-scopes/index.php

Geez, what does he know. Its not like he is a guy posting on the internet.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 1:42:23 PM EDT
I am a big fan of irons and after 30 years of shooting the M-16/AR platform as well as over 40 years of shooting period, I still prefer them. Target aquisition is damn fast for me wiht irons.

The detach CH though does give more options and 2 years ago I bought my first and only scope, a TA-31 ACOG. It sits on an M4--the one that has an RAS and Magpul buttstock on it also. It is a little on the heavy side but last year while showing of for my son, I put 4 shots into a clay at 35 yards in under a second. Blew that thing to smithereens. I think the extra weight helped in that regard but that is another matter.

I'm a big fan of the KISS concept and don't accesorize much. The rifle above is the only one of all my rifles that is other than stock. Oh, I do have an M4 with a Surefire for nightime home security, also - almost forgot about that one.

I had purchased a milsurp A2 upper a few years ago and put it together about a month ago. Took it out and shooting standing, offhand at 100m I was practically drilling the same hole with it. With irons. Wow. Very impressed with it. Accurate, awesome balance.

Yup, give me irons also. Old dog, I guess but I can get on target pretty damn fast and am used to cheek weld, sight picture, etc. Me likey.


Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:53:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??


I'm sure that with your superiority, you can outshoot all of us.



no i'm just saying I think to many people are getting away from the basics of marksmanship and just want to line a dot up and go.




There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting optics on your weapon.

There is no difference in "marksmanship" if you use a circle and a post to line up the weapon or a dot. You still have to have good trigger squeeze, good breathing and a good position to shoot.

I fail to see how using an optic is a crutch?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:55:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Iron sites have been getting the job done for years now but every newbie to weapons wants a removable carry handle so they can mount some junk optic on their new AR.

Or even worse they have about 10 surefires mounted on it and a laser site.

I wonder how many people I could outshoot with a 20" with Irons??



Yeah, and horses got people around just fine before automobiles too.

The telegraph got messages from place to place before telephones, fax machines, or the internet, too.

Do you ride a horse and send telegrams..........................
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