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Posted: 3/4/2006 11:52:58 AM EDT
I am a Marine stationed at Ft. Lewis WA(Army Fort) and saw a specialist wearing the cowboy hat, boots, and spurs of the air cav. Are all members of that unit authorized to wear that uniform? I would think that only pilots would be, but thats why I am asking this question in the first place.

Thanks,
BJohnson
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:58:03 AM EDT
Aren't the spurs a 7th Cav thing???

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 11:59:16 AM EDT
Maybe the Specialist owns his own private helicopter?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:01:11 PM EDT
Not only pilots. I've seen armored cav wearing them.
IIRC, the cavalry gear is reserved for formal and ceremonial events.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:02:02 PM EDT
maybe he was dressed up for a party. just because he was wearing it doesnt make him authorized
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:05:34 PM EDT
I would think it's a unit thing. When I was in the 1st Cav division you would see all the officers and senior NCO's wearing them at breifings -even while deployed. None of the regular troops wore them. There was the "Cav Detachment" though. They were a ceremonial/traditional throwback to the real Cav days. They rode horses, wore old style uniforms, and would conduct mounted Cavalry charges on the Division Parade Ground during ceremonies. Perhaps the guy you saw was something along those lines. There was a similar detachment at Ft. Huachuca also.

But as far as normal garrison duty uniforms, I never saw that in Ft Hood.


-K
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:08:35 PM EDT
When I was at Camp Victory in Kuwait waiting to come back to the States from Iraq, I saw a couple of Specialists walking around in their BDU's with spurs on. It was the second dumbest thing I saw during my 5 days at Camp Victory. The first was the manicure/pedicure spa tent.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:18:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 12:24:17 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By BJohnson383:
I am a Marine stationed at Ft. Lewis WA(Army Fort) and saw a specialist wearing the cowboy hat, boots, and spurs of the air cav. Are all members of that unit authorized to wear that uniform? I would think that only pilots would be, but thats why I am asking this question in the first place.

Thanks,
BJohnson



Any member of a cavalry unit (airmobile, armored, or otherwise) can earn the right to wear each of those items... It's not about what rank, but that you've done whatever the unit requires to 'award' you your institutional uniform items...

Said specialist was probably out of one of the Stryker units - the RISTA scout units are all classified as Cavalry...

It's just one of those 'traditional' things, like armor guys wearing tanker boots, or Airborne wearing their jump boots with their A's....

P.S. 'Air Cav' is now 'Air Assault', ala 101st... Most of the old-line Cav units are heavy armored (i.e. 1st Cav & the ACRs), and the 'new' ones they are creating are all Stryker-mounted scout units (RISTA)... 1st probably maintains some level of airmobile capability though...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:24:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 12:33:29 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:
When I was at Camp Victory in Kuwait waiting to come back to the States from Iraq, I saw a couple of Specialists walking around in their BDU's with spurs on. It was the second dumbest thing I saw during my 5 days at Camp Victory. The first was the manicure/pedicure spa tent.



Sounds like "spur envy".

The Cavalry keeps up its traditions, even in the combat theater.
Read up before sounding stupid.

www.angelfire.com/rnb/rogergrott/spur_history/spur.htm

www.cavhooah.com/stetson.htm

Oh, and one of them involves a practical sabre, not a useless ceremonial accoutrement.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:54:44 PM EDT
I was in the 1-1 CAV. Our pilots wore Stetsons. Enlisted could have them as well, but no one bothered. It was mainly worn during Troop ceremonies or dinners, some took theirs to Desert Storm as seen in my Troop pic from 1991.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 12:59:24 PM EDT
Yeah it is not just air units. When I was at Fort Lewis I was in 1/9 Cav. Mostly on speacial occaisions visits from very high ups or inspections would the officers wear the black cav hat with the braid and the boots with spurs. This was in 87-89.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:15:28 PM EDT
Thank Lt. Col. John Stockton. The original commander of the 1/9, just after the old 11th Air Assault days. He wanted to boost the espirit de corps, and the black Stetsons were one of the ways he did it. He was oredered numerous times to have them remove, but he skirted the order and allowed them for troop functions.

Later on in Vietnam, alot of the scout pilots for the 1/9 started to wear the buckskin gloves. That stuck as well. I dont know when the spurs came, but the air cav savres came around with a scout pilot named "Ace" Cozzolio.

I think it looks fucking badass, myself. Let your enemy know who you are and what your gonna do.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:46:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:
When I was at Camp Victory in Kuwait waiting to come back to the States from Iraq, I saw a couple of Specialists walking around in their BDU's with spurs on. It was the second dumbest thing I saw during my 5 days at Camp Victory. The first was the manicure/pedicure spa tent.



Sounds like "spur envy".

The Cavalry keeps up its traditions, even in the combat theater.
Read up before sounding stupid.

www.angelfire.com/rnb/rogergrott/spur_history/spur.htm

www.cavhooah.com/stetson.htm

Oh, and one of them involves a practical sabre, not a useless ceremonial accoutrement.



O.K., I've read up on it.

I still think it was dumb. (And.. I apprently missed the memo that explains that merely thinking something is dumb now makes someone stupid. If someone could post that for me, that would be grrreeaaatttt....)

I'm not saying the spurs themselves are dumb. I'm all about tradition and history in the military; I think they keep our military strong and help esprit de corps. If they were wearing them for a field mess ceremony or promotion or something, I'd be all about it. I just think wearing them around Camp Victory, where most people are most likely on their way to or from Iraq, is dumb. I guess after spending seven months in two pretty crappy cities in Iraq, I wasn't looking at them and thinking "WOW! Those guys are BAD ASS!"

On the other hand, I've always thought the Stetson was pretty damn cool. If they were wearing those around Camp Victory, I might have had some Stetson envy. You have to wear a cover (or headgear or whatever the Army calls it) anyway, and at least it's practical in that it keeps the f&*$in' Kuwaiti sun off your neck.

The rolling eyes were for the spa tent.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:
When I was at Camp Victory in Kuwait waiting to come back to the States from Iraq, I saw a couple of Specialists walking around in their BDU's with spurs on. It was the second dumbest thing I saw during my 5 days at Camp Victory. The first was the manicure/pedicure spa tent.



Sounds like "spur envy".

The Cavalry keeps up its traditions, even in the combat theater.
Read up before sounding stupid.

www.angelfire.com/rnb/rogergrott/spur_history/spur.htm

www.cavhooah.com/stetson.htm

Oh, and one of them involves a practical sabre, not a useless ceremonial accoutrement.



O.K., I've read up on it.

I still think it was dumb. (And.. I apprently missed the memo that explains that merely thinking something is dumb now makes someone stupid. If someone could post that for me, that would be grrreeaaatttt....)

I'm not saying the spurs themselves are dumb. I'm all about tradition and history in the military; I think they keep our military strong and help esprit de corps. If they were wearing them for a field mess ceremony or promotion or something, I'd be all about it. I just think wearing them around Camp Victory, where most people are most likely on their way to or from Iraq, is dumb. I guess after spending seven months in two pretty crappy cities in Iraq, I wasn't looking at them and thinking "WOW! Those guys are BAD ASS!"

On the other hand, I've always thought the Stetson was pretty damn cool. If they were wearing those around Camp Victory, I might have had some Stetson envy. You have to wear a cover (or headgear or whatever the Army calls it) anyway, and at least it's practical in that it keeps the f&*$in' Kuwaiti sun off your neck.

The rolling eyes were for the spa tent.



Agreed about the spa tent.
Sorry about the "stupid" remark.

The spurs are part of the ceremony/indoctrination and, IIRC, must be worn by the inductee for a period of time following the ceremony. Yes, they're an anachronism on the modern battlefield, but so is a sabre/sword or a stetson.

Those guys may very well have spent considerable time in the same crappy cities, which is why tradition is so important. Once you ditch that, you're admitting that the things you stand for were merely ceremonial.

Admit it.
You thought Duvall was insanely badass.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 2:53:48 PM EDT
In the 1990s, one of my flight
Instructors was a former Cav.
Cobra Pilot in Vietnam. He had
a great pic of himself, seated, w/
his feet propped up on a table. He was wearing
his 2 piece Nomex, a Stetson, Cowboy Boots,
and Huge Wheeled Spurs!

Oh the good old days...



Link Posted: 3/4/2006 3:07:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By JDC_VA_USMC:
When I was at Camp Victory in Kuwait waiting to come back to the States from Iraq, I saw a couple of Specialists walking around in their BDU's with spurs on. It was the second dumbest thing I saw during my 5 days at Camp Victory. The first was the manicure/pedicure spa tent.



Sounds like "spur envy".

The Cavalry keeps up its traditions, even in the combat theater.
Read up before sounding stupid.

www.angelfire.com/rnb/rogergrott/spur_history/spur.htm

www.cavhooah.com/stetson.htm

Oh, and one of them involves a practical sabre, not a useless ceremonial accoutrement.



O.K., I've read up on it.

I still think it was dumb. (And.. I apprently missed the memo that explains that merely thinking something is dumb now makes someone stupid. If someone could post that for me, that would be grrreeaaatttt....)

I'm not saying the spurs themselves are dumb. I'm all about tradition and history in the military; I think they keep our military strong and help esprit de corps. If they were wearing them for a field mess ceremony or promotion or something, I'd be all about it. I just think wearing them around Camp Victory, where most people are most likely on their way to or from Iraq, is dumb. I guess after spending seven months in two pretty crappy cities in Iraq, I wasn't looking at them and thinking "WOW! Those guys are BAD ASS!"

On the other hand, I've always thought the Stetson was pretty damn cool. If they were wearing those around Camp Victory, I might have had some Stetson envy. You have to wear a cover (or headgear or whatever the Army calls it) anyway, and at least it's practical in that it keeps the f&*$in' Kuwaiti sun off your neck.

The rolling eyes were for the spa tent.



Agreed about the spa tent.
Sorry about the "stupid" remark.

The spurs are part of the ceremony/indoctrination and, IIRC, must be worn by the inductee for a period of time following the ceremony. Yes, they're an anachronism on the modern battlefield, but so is a sabre/sword or a stetson.

Those guys may very well have spent considerable time in the same crappy cities, which is why tradition is so important. Once you ditch that, you're admitting that the things you stand for were merely ceremonial.

Admit it.
You thought Duvall was insanely badass.



I can agree with your point on that one. I was pretty worn out, and maybe a little cynical at the time (and definitely hot.) They may have been as well... and said, "You know what, F this place, let's put our F&#ING SPURS ON!"

I'm going to leave this thread now, so I don't start thinking the black beret was a good idea too.

And yes, Duvall was badass. He was also bad ass (although slightly disturbed) in The Great Santini.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:25:34 PM EDT
Thanks for the info guys...Knew I could count on the ARFCON crew.

-BJohnson
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:35:24 PM EDT
A while ago I was thinking of raising cain with the Cav units in an effort to get them to install those horns that play the bugle call for 'Charge' in their vehicles.


Think about it a second, just about everyone on the planet has seen an American Western, and probably 80%+ of foriegn troops know that when you hear the bugle that the US Cavalry is gonna be boiling over the hill in a second or two.

Psychological warfare at it's finest.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 4:40:00 PM EDT
Cavalry Spurs

Tradition of Wearing Spurs

The tradition has its roots in knighthood, where the awarding of gilt spurs symbolized entry into the ranks and fraternity of mounted warriors. Usually, the squire aspiring to knighthood had to perform some task or deed on the battlefield or tournament field (tournaments were considered like our training maneuvers) to "win their spurs." The spurs themselves were buckled on during the investiture to knighthood, usually during Mass or some other religious ceremony; knighthood, itself, was considered sacramental, if not a sacrament itself. Thereafter, it was the spurs that symbolized that a man was a knight--not his sword, horse, or armor. No matter how financially destitute, a poor knight would part with everything else before his spurs. The primary act of degradation (removing someone from the knightly class) was to have another knight cut off the offending knights spurs. So much for the mists of time; it is not known, exactly, when the tradition of awarding spurs was started it in the U.S. Cavalry.


The Order of the Spur

1. The Order of the Spur is to recognize individual qualifications for those in a cavalry unit. The privilege of being awarded spurs in 7th U.S. Cavalry comes with hard work.

2. The following minimum guidelines must be met:

2 years in the 7th U.S. Cavalry.
MOSQ or Branch qualified
Interview with Squadron Commander.

3. Qualified on a Squadron Spur Ride. The title belies the nature of this event. A Spur Ride is led by "Spur Qualified" Non-commissioned Officers and is supervised by the Squadron Command Sergeant Major. Officers, generally, conduct their own Spur Ride along similar lines. Traditionally, it starts at the break of day with group PT or a PT test; individuals and their equipment are inspected, and a thorough hazing of candidates begins. During the course of the day, candidates are subjected to different stations that test their initiative, military expertise, and stamina. As night approaches, the candidates are assembled and provided with instructions. From there, the candidates must negotiate a general route from station to station where, again, their skills and tenacity are tested. Their route is designed to take them over a twenty-five mile course in the dead of night. During the course of the night and usually into the morning, candidates negotiate the course and, eventually, arrive at the finish line.

Even though the Spur Ride that I completed at Ft. Hood in 1994 did not result in death or many serious injuries, there have been times where other troopers weren't so lucky. Old soldiers tell stories, and here are two of my favorite stories about Spur Rides.

During the 1960's in Baumholder FRG, the candidates were not informed of the boundaries and restrictions. Some enterprising candidates hitch-hiked on German roads and finished ten hours ahead of others. Of course they we "No Go's." Also, candidates became disoriented upon returning to the Baumholder Kaserne and wound up moving through the housing area, attempting to go "straight-line" and reduce the distance traveled. Some were shot at and some were shot. Not good.

Also in Germany in the 1960's. Command Sergeant Major Cook (1-7 Cav, 1995-1996) told me that, during his Spur Ride, his group was inserted into a remote forest region and were to negotiate a three-day course. During the first day, a fellow candidate fell and broke his leg. The other candidates in the group fashioned a litter and carried the soldier for the remaining two days. All of them completed the course in an appropriate time, and all were awarded spurs, including the soldier with the broken leg.

4. In addition to the above minimum requirements, the following are criteria that will be graded on a point system. A total of 300 out of a maximum of 450 will qualify.

Point Values:

Individual Weapons Qualification: Marksman = 50/ Sharpshooter = 100/ Expert = 150
Annual Physical Fitness Test: 180-220 = 50/ 220 - 270 = 100/ 270-300 = 150
Cavalry Thesis w/bibliography: Grade C = 50/ Grade B = 100/ Grade A = 150

5. The Squadron Commander will then award the Spurs to be worn proudly during the "Troopers Cavalry Career."
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:00:56 PM EDT
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.

Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:15:36 PM EDT
they keep it alive because of the heritage of the units and for morale.

the old cav road in on horses.but now the ride in on tanks and helicopters.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:31:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 6:31:43 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 7:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
P.S. 'Air Cav' is now 'Air Assault', ala 101st...




O RLY?


I wonder what the Cav troopers of 2nd Squadron 17th Cavalry at Fort Campbell would say to that.



Link Posted: 3/5/2006 11:45:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 11:50:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.



You can't possibly be this ignorant of Cavalry tactics.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 11:51:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanau:
they keep it alive because of the heritage of the units and for morale.

the old cav road in on horses.but now the ride in on tanks and helicopters.



Well, the infantry and mechanized troops also "ride" into battle too, why not call them cavalry then also?

I understand the lineage thing to a point, but when I think of cavalry I just think horses.

Then it gets even more confusing becuase cavalry units use squadrons and other units use companys.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 11:56:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.



From Wiki
In some modern militaries (especially the United States Army), the term Cavalry is often used for units that fill the traditional horse-borne light cavalry roles of scouting, screening, skirmishing and raiding. The shock role, traditionally filled by heavy cavalry, is generally filled by units with the "Armoured" designation.


When I was in 1/7 Cav that's what we did, only we used M1s and Brads.
the Stetsons are about tradition, as are the spurs.

Anyone assigned to a Cavalry unit can wear them on designated days.

They re not authorized for wear once you leave the unit.

Sorry you think thier "Antique." the Army disagrees.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:03:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By hanau:
they keep it alive because of the heritage of the units and for morale.

the old cav road in on horses.but now the ride in on tanks and helicopters.



Well, the infantry and mechanized troops also "ride" into battle too, why not call them cavalry then also?

I understand the lineage thing to a point, but when I think of cavalry I just think horses. Then it gets even more confusing becuase cavalry units use squadrons and other units use companys.




And you think wrong.

Cavalry units are thusly named because they use a different TO&E, and thier METL list
is completelydifferent than even mechanized infantry outfits.

Mechanized Infantry are not "Cavalry" for a number of reasons.

1- Infantry are 11 Series......Armor branch is 19 Series...19D (Scout) 19D (Tanker)
2- Organization of vehicles and, types of vehicles are completely different.
3- Becasue of 2, the mission is totally different.

Not only do we use "Squadron" in place of "Battallion"....We use "Troop" in place of "Company".
This is much like Field Artillery that uses "Battery" instead of "Company".

In short, it's like calling an elephant and Rino becasue they both have four legs and they both live in Africa.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:05:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 12:13:08 PM EDT by TRW]

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.



You can't possibly be this ignorant of Cavalry tactics.



I'm not Army, I was Air Force.

Thanks. The explanations above helped.

Now what advantages does a Cavalry Division have over an Infantry division and in what situations would the use of one over the other be warranted, especially the cavalry division?
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:14:32 PM EDT

You can't possibly be this ignorant of Cavalry tactics.


Well I guess I am since I am not in or have ever been in the Army, but by antiquated I meant that the actual tactics may not be antiquated but the EXECUTION of them is, i.e. they were executed by horseback before and now they are executed by vehicle. So only modern CAVALRY units are trained and authorized to perform these uber tactical, still relevant, gee-whiz cavalry tactics? I better not catch any INFANTRY or MECHANIZED units trying to perform these tactics...well...because those units are just not professional enough

Never mind......all you cav guys can go back to drinking your alfalfa and leather flavored kool-aid and arguing about who has the biggest spurs. Keeping THE CAVALRY LINEAGE AND NAME AND UNIT STRUCTURE AROUND IS SUCH A GREAT IDEA.

It's not a question of being professional enough. It's a question of training, equipment and, doctorine...Which, again you do a wondorful job of pointing out of how blissfully ignorant you are of all of the above.

I'm actually not trying to insult you, I'm trying to educate you.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:26:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/5/2006 12:30:52 PM EDT by Goonboss]

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.



You can't possibly be this ignorant of Cavalry tactics.



I'm not Army, I was Air Force.

Thanks. The explanations above helped.

Now what advantages does a Cavalry Division have over an Infantry division and in what situations would the use of one over the other be warranted, especially the cavalry division?



There is only 1 Cavalry Division, which is 1st Cavalry Division at Ft. Hood. It's units
are named after old Cavarly units, and, are "cavalry" in name only. Theier companys are
called that and, their battalions are called that as well. They are merely Mech Infantry companys, or Armor companys, depending and, have those rolls in combat.

When I ws in there were three brigades of Mech/Armor in 1st Cav, and, I was in 1/7 Cav, in 4th brigade. We were actually a "cavalry" unit, know as a "Divisional Cavalr Squadron" and performed cavalry roles for the division.....Whish is an Armor division, TO&E wise.

The largest cavalry formation in existance today in the US Army are ACRs, or, Armord Cavalry Regiments......There is the 2nd, 3rd, and, 11th. They ae roughly brigade sized units and, meant to perform the traditional Cavalry roles for a Corps level unit.

(Reference the Battle of 73 Easting in GW1)

Where Infantry units are tasked to take and, hold ground, many Cavalry units are tasked to
bypass and, report enemy concentrations, leaving them for the follow on forces.

A Cavalry Bradley has 13 TOW missiles, and, 2 dismouts, whereas, an Infantry Bradley carries more dismounts and less TOWS, becasue of the different missions.....this is jut an example of the differing equipment.

ETA- You'd use Cavalry to Screen flanks/front/rear. This is vital to keep enemy eyes off friendly troop concentrations, and, to let the logistics piece work, as well as resting, building combat power, whatever. You might use a ACR as a stand alone unit in a fight such as GW1 or II, where mobility and violence are of more use than the traditional take/hold ground scenerios. "Thunder Runs" were a good example of cavalry tactics used by Non-Cavalry units..Not that they CAN'T do it, it's just nt what they are best equipped or trained for.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:40:10 PM EDT
I can remember a Division run at Schofield and we were on our return leg back to K Quad and we ran by the Air Cav (AH-1 Cobras). All the Commanders, CSM, and 1SG's had gotten back in BDU's and the Stetsons/yellow scarves cheering all the units that passed. One of the Commanders reminded me of Robert Duvall. The Cav unit even had their 1880's vintage horse drawn carrage out front too, meticulously cared for too.

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 12:49:40 PM EDT
To elevate Col Kilgore a bit more, notice his left shoulder. Col. Kilgore was Ranger qualified.

Col. Kilgores chaacter was based on Col John Stockton.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 8:17:27 PM EDT
The old style divisions each had one Cavalry Squadron. Depending on the type of division, the mix of ground and air troops would vary, but it was still just a Squadron (Battalion sized).

Each Corps usually had a Cavalry Regiment. So you had the 11th ACR being the CAV regiment of VII Corps, etc. Remember that each Division in that Corps also had it's divisional Cav Squadron. All these "Cav" units perform the tradtional cavalry missions.

The 1st Cavalry Division is organized as an Armored Divsion. Like all other divisions it really only has one Cavalry Squadron, it's divisional Cav Squadron. Because many of the units in the division originally had horses, there are other units with "cav" in their designations, but they are in the same boat as the rest of the Division being organized as conventional mech or armor units.

This confusion with the 1st Cav Div is further complicated by it's previous incarnation as an Airmobile Division, then being termed an "Air Cav" division. Many people erroneously think that all Army aviation units are somehow "Air Cav", or that other Air Assault units are "Air Cav", etc. which is incorrect.

Air Cav does the same thing ground Cav does, only from the air. The Division also has attack helicopter battalions, and assault battalions, but those aren't "Air Cav". Just as the other line combat units of the division on the ground are not part of the Cav Squadron, the other line combat air units are not part of the Cav Squadron either.

The Division's Cav Squadron simply perfroms the classic cavalry mission for the Division. The Division's non-cav units perform the traditional non-cav unit missions for the Division.

With transformation, the new Division will have four Brigade Combat Teams. Each BCT will have it's own RSTA(RECONNAISSANCE, SURVEILLANCE AND TARGET ACQUISION) squadron consisting of a HHT, a recee troop, and a surveillance troop.

The Air Troops are gone, the mission pushed down into a reorganized Attack/Recon battalion in the CAB. There are UAVs in both the CAB and the RSTA.

The RSTA are still real Cav units, because of the mission they do. They will continue to be used as Cavalry, and will continue to use the "Cav" designations.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 12:36:03 AM EDT
The 2 ACR is as far as I know, no longer an ARMORED Cavalry Regiment. I believe it's just the 2 CR now.

While it may seem strange to some that we bother to keep old traditions alive, it ties the work and sacrifice of those who came before, with those who are there now. It's the reason for the Fife and Drum Corps, and the Revolutionary War era uniforms of the 3rd Infantry. If you want to see some old traditions, and alternate parade uniforms, look at the UK. Bagpipes and kilts (not just the Scotts wore kilts), a big feather in one units beret.

I'm guessing that the guys wearing the spurs in Kuwait were wearing the gold (silver?) ones for being in battle. One color is for completing the spur ride, the other for being in combat. I think silver and gold respectively.

And Air Cav, is not Air Assault.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 1:10:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Unicorn:
The 2 ACR is as far as I know, no longer an ARMORED Cavalry Regiment. I believe it's just the 2 CR now.

While it may seem strange to some that we bother to keep old traditions alive, it ties the work and sacrifice of those who came before, with those who are there now. It's the reason for the Fife and Drum Corps, and the Revolutionary War era uniforms of the 3rd Infantry. If you want to see some old traditions, and alternate parade uniforms, look at the UK. Bagpipes and kilts (not just the Scotts wore kilts), a big feather in one units beret.

I'm guessing that the guys wearing the spurs in Kuwait were wearing the gold (silver?) ones for being in battle. One color is for completing the spur ride, the other for being in combat. I think silver and gold respectively.

And Air Cav, is not Air Assault.



The 2nd ACR was transitioned to the uparmor HMMV platforms when I was in back in the 90s, and,
it still retained its designation. I'm willing to bet they still carry it.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:00:06 AM EDT
I went to a live interview with Robert Duvall a couple years ago, and he described the preparation he put into his role in Apocalypse Now.

The character of Col. Kilgore as originally written by John Milius was named "Colonel Carnage", and was supposed to be a comic-bookish buffoon with cowboy boots and hat. Duvall didn't like it ("it was overkill") so he suggested that the character be toned-down and renamed.

On his own initiative, he researched the Air Cav at the Ft. Hood museum and got the idea to give Kilgore a more authentic cavalry hat and neckerchief.

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:09:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Richard-ar15:
I went to a live interview with Robert Duvall a couple years ago, and he described the preparation he put into his role in Apocalypse Now.

The character of Col. Kilgore as originally written by John Milius was named "Colonel Carnage", and was supposed to be a comic-bookish buffoon with cowboy boots and hat. Duvall didn't like it ("it was overkill") so he suggested that the character be toned-down and renamed.
On his own initiative, he researched the Air Cav at the Ft. Hood museum and got the idea to give Kilgore a more authentic cavalry hat and neckerchief.






Milius should thank Duvall every day of his life, and, send him cards on holidays.

Robert Duvall single handedly saved that movie, if that's correct.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:20:01 AM EDT
I love John Milius, but he can be a little looney sometimes.

For example, all the "restored" scenes in "Apocalypse Now Redux".
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:30:24 AM EDT
Once I told a group of Marines that if they were ever in danger of being over run to get ahold of the nearest Cav unit.

They bit at the bait. 'Why the Cav?'

"Never in the history of the Motion Picture industry has the United States Cavalry ever neen too late!"

I was treated to groans and playfully pelted with ice and popcorn.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:33:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
Once I told a group of Marines that if they were ever in danger of being over run to get ahold of the nearest Cav unit.

They bit at the bait. 'Why the Cav?'

"Never in the history of the Motion Picture industry has the United States Cavalry ever neen too late!"

I was treated to groans and playfully pelted with ice and popcorn.



Well, that and the fact that 1st Cav and ARVN troops lifted the seige
of Khe Sahn with Operation Peguses.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 5:35:23 AM EDT
Sound the next "Village People" character.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:04:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Never understood the Armys facination with keeping unit lineage that goes back to antiquated outfits and tactics like "cavalry".

Would be like the Italian Army tracing unit lineage back to roman chariots or catapults(artillery ;-)). Strange. 22nd chariot regiment or 17th catapult battery. The italian soldiers optional uniforms could be togas and sandals.....

I would also think it would be confusing have only 10 active duty divisions and having three of them start with a 1 (1st Infantry, 1st Cavalry, and 1st Armored) especially these days when the actual difference between the three types is very narrow.




Cavalry tactics - antiquated?
Did you really mean that?



Yes....I did.

Lets all get on our horses and charge the machines gun nests with our sabers held proudly in the air.



Do you have any clue as to what you've just said?
Technology marches on and tactics adapt.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:53:33 PM EDT
I was BSing with a buddy at work today about Apocalypse Now, and I got the idea for a cool "spin-off" movie. It would be a Vietnam movie with Col. Kilgore and the Cav as the focus
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:59:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
I was BSing with a buddy at work today about Apocalypse Now, and I got the idea for a cool "spin-off" movie. It would be a Vietnam movie with Col. Kilgore and the Cav as the focus



Well there is a book...


I read in many moons ago. It's about 1-9 Cav, the unit the one in AN was based on.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 3:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
I was BSing with a buddy at work today about Apocalypse Now, and I got the idea for a cool "spin-off" movie. It would be a Vietnam movie with Col. Kilgore and the Cav as the focus



Well there is a book...
images.snapfish.com/34648%3C542%7Ffp343%3Enu%3D324%3B%3E572%3E%3A­%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D32335766%3A5%3B2%3Cnu0mrj

I read in many moons ago. It's about 1-9 Cav, the unit the one in AN was based on.



*makes mental note to check for it at the libary*

Definatly gonna check that out.
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