New Navy Uniforms....your opinions? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New Navy Uniforms....your opinions? (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:49:47 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I was in the Navy, it's okay. If you fall overboard with that uniform good luck being seen by the Search and Rescue crew.

Max

I'm a helicopter pilot. Good luck being seen unless you are wearing blaze orange or are smart enough to remember to splash water with your arms. That will get you seen no matter what you are wearing.

Do you tell people in the Army/Marines good luck being seen if you are knocked unconscious in the woods? How often did somebody go overboard on your ship anyway?

I have 4 years of sea time on 5 or 6 different ships and haven't ever had a real MOB.

Well I have 5 years sea time and seen several man overboards and a helo crash.

We recovered the pilot and copilot but the air crew for the new SH60Bs were not recovered.

Also I have been in combat and we account for our Marines. First time in Iraq my Battalion lost 18. Second time we lost 13 and we have recovered all of our dead. We were wearing desert cammies.

The Ocean is a different animal all together.

Max

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:56:12 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
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The CNO also eliminated all tropical uniforms. That's OK not many people actually used them.

Damn that's all we wore during the summer on liberty was tropical whites. I remeber going into Dago in trop whites.

Actually, take a look at the tropical uniforms on the NPC website. I'm talking about the ones with shorts and and the jungle helmet.

I have a feeling you're talking about the summer whites, also gone in favor of the new working uniform.

What we called trop. whites was a short sleeved button front shirt and the white BB trousers.

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:57:04 PM EDT

[#3]

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Quoted:
Although the "Master Chief" in the picture needs to roll those sleeves up a little bit better.

They always look like shit when you roll them that way.

I'd tell you how we did it right in the Air Force, but it's probably too complicated.

Posted: 3/3/2006 4:57:25 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

The CNO also eliminated all tropical uniforms. That's OK not many people actually used them.

Damn that's all we wore during the summer on liberty was tropical whites. I remeber going into Dago in trop whites.

Actually, take a look at the tropical uniforms on the NPC website. I'm talking about the ones with shorts and and the jungle helmet.

I have a feeling you're talking about the summer whites, also gone in favor of the new working uniform.

What we called trop. whites was a short sleeved button front shirt and the white BB trousers.

Those are actually summer whites or summer working whites.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:00:54 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
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Although the "Master Chief" in the picture needs to roll those sleeves up a little bit better.

They always look like shit when you roll them that way.

I'd tell you how we did it right in the Air Force, but it's probably too complicated.

How complicated is "pay the valet to do it"?

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:03:08 PM EDT

[#6]

Is this how the navy stands at attn? They face the back of their hands forward? Unsat.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:04:05 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Is this how the navy stands at attn? They face the back of their hands forward? Unsat.

www.uniformmarket.com/magazine/110204/graphics/navy1.jpg

You do realize those aren't military members right?

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:07:17 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Well I have 5 years sea time and seen several man overboards and a helo crash.

We recovered the pilot and copilot but the air crew for the new SH60Bs were not recovered.

Also I have been in combat and we account for our Marines. First time in Iraq my Battalion lost 18. Second time we lost 13 and we have recovered all of our dead. We were wearing desert cammies.

The Ocean is a different animal all together.

Max

Were the MOBs during a special evolution when the crew was wearing flotation. That makes a much bigger difference than your uniform during a MOB since 90+% of the uniform is under water.

Re: the helo crash. This uniform won't be worn by flight crews. Passengers, if there were any on a Bravo, would be wearing flotation and reflective headgear.

Sorry you apparently didn't get my point on the desert cammies. We tend to account for a ship's crew pretty well too.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:12:56 PM EDT

[#9]

I don't think lame really says it all for that.

That color/pattern's been around for a while... why are they all of a sudden jumping on it now?

WTF does the NAVY need WOODLAND camo for anyway?
If they called it Jersey Shore Camo I'd buy off on the name... it matches the color of the water and beaches there... ;)

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:15:09 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
WTF does the NAVY need WOODLAND camo for anyway?

Oh, I don't know maybe:
SeaBees
SEALS
SWCC
EOD
Master-at-arms, ie Base Police/Security
Riverine forces
Corpsmen who don't wish to maintain both a Navy and USMC seabag
Divers
etc.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:26:18 PM EDT

[#11]

Don't get me started...

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:28:13 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
It's a hell of a lot better than the moronic uniforms the squids wear now.

You hit the nail on the head.

Interestingly, the support for these uniforms fall along paygrade lines. E-7 and above don't like them. E-6 and below do. If you look at it E-7 and above wear wash khakis and E-6 and below the prison uniforms. Gee, I wonder why they're interested in a new uni.

Wow, that figures.

The E-7 and above don't like, yet THEY get to wear fairly cool looking uniforms.

Give the poor sqiuds some decent uniforms.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:28:54 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
CNO has announced his decision as of yesterday.

They will be the predominately blue digital pattern BDUs to replace the prison uniforms and the wash khakis.
There will be no suede allowed for shipboard use, shore duty OK.
There will also be a desert and a woodland/jungle pattern for those who require it. Think NAVPAT.
The blouses will not have the bottom two pockets as they tend to get hung up on things aboard ship. It also makes it easier to tuck the blouse in for firefighting.
No word on command ballcaps with them, but I suspect it will be authorized.

The Navy also got rid of the summer whites and Johnny Cash's for the enlisted folks and replaced them with a single uniform. A khaki blouse and black trousers. Sorry USMC, it does look like we copied you, but it's good for our folks.

The CNO also eliminated all tropical uniforms. That's OK not many people actually used them. Although, I'm picking up a pith helmet for old time's sake.

There is talk, from the CNO's email to flag officers, of bringing back Service Dress Khakis. I hope that is the next move.

I don't grasp much of the above...but those service dress khakis were the schnizzle!

What's with the khaki blouse and black trou...???

Pics?

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:30:38 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Don't get me started...

Like I said, I don't like the pattern, I think plain blue or gray would have worked better. In fact, I'd rather the Navy just went to flight suits for all. However, if this gets my foot in the door to the coolest Navy Uniform ever, ie Service Dress Khaki, then I'll look like a Yemeni security guard.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:31:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

The CNO also eliminated all tropical uniforms. That's OK not many people actually used them.

Damn that's all we wore during the summer on liberty was tropical whites. I remeber going into Dago in trop whites.

Actually, take a look at the tropical uniforms on the NPC website. I'm talking about the ones with shorts and and the jungle helmet.

I have a feeling you're talking about the summer whites, also gone in favor of the new working uniform.

What we called trop. whites was a short sleeved button front shirt and the white BB trousers.

Those are actually summer whites or summer working whites.

Well between '64-'71 they were called tropical white uniform vs. the dress white uniform. The is was for 1st class and below. Then I had the dragons on the inside of my dress blue cuffs and would roll them out on liberty. Back then they had 2 different blue trousers the 13 button flap and the ones with a zipper fly for our undress blues.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:31:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Pics of the new camo:

www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=32392

www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_051101-N-2410F-001.jpg

Blue ACU-type pattern, less pockets, and with the rank moved...

But... I find it rather absurd that the USN/USAF has to come up with (slimlar-ish) blue-digipat uniforms for non-forward-deployed troops...

For all the things I didn't like about BDUs, the whole MARPAT/ACU/NAVPAT/AFPAT thing is a bit absurd... I like my ACUs, but from a practicality/cost perspective it would be nice to have 2-at-most-uniforms (eg a 'camo pattern' for forward deployed forces, and a 'utility uniform' (OD Green? Khaki?) for non-forward-deploying personell (eg AF/USN))....

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:34:58 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Pics of the new camo:

www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=32392

www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_051101-N-2410F-001.jpg

Try this……note the retroflective bands on the sleeves dport

i2.tinypic.com/qob0oh.jpg

ANdy

Is that Gavin MacCleod?

1SL Admiral Sir Alan West (He was Captain of HMS Ardent during the Falklands) was CiC RN, retired last month.

i2.tinypic.com/qobrz6.jpg
No 8's, normal working rig for everyone on RN ships

i2.tinypic.com/qobv4g.jpg
And this is what the well dressed young SWO about town wears at Action Stations...

As well they should!

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:37:01 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
What's with the khaki blouse and black trou...???

Pics?

LINK
The one on the right.
The one on the left looked too much like the dungarees, so the kids didn't like them.
The new service uniform will use collar devices not patches on the arm.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:38:47 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this how the navy stands at attn? They face the back of their hands forward? Unsat.

www.uniformmarket.com/magazine/110204/graphics/navy1.jpg
You do realize those aren't military members right?

They resemble navy personell quite accurately. I grew up in a navy town. YMMV

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:39:07 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
WTF does the NAVY need WOODLAND camo for anyway?

Oh, I don't know maybe:
SeaBees
SEALS
SWCC
EOD
Master-at-arms, ie Base Police/Security
Riverine forces
Corpsmen who don't wish to maintain both a Navy and USMC seabag
Divers
etc.

In the '60s they all wore the same ultillities as the MC with a different iron-on on the pocket except for base police/ security which wore a sky blue shirt/ navy blue trousers like a civy police uniform. And the gates were manned by Marines.

Posted: 3/3/2006 5:39:45 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this how the navy stands at attn? They face the back of their hands forward? Unsat.

www.uniformmarket.com/magazine/110204/graphics/navy1.jpg
You do realize those aren't military members right?

They resemble navy personell quite accurately. I grew up in a navy town. YMMV

BTW Navy is capitalized.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:26:16 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
In fact, I'd rather the Navy just went to flight suits for all.

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT. YOU ARE A WANNABE.

Lots of places to stash the donuts in a flight suit.

Posted: 3/3/2006 7:41:34 PM EDT

[#23]

The news story I read also mentioned a "loose fitting Black 'Ike'-type short jacket to go with the Black trousers and Tan shirt.

*****

The reason they wated a cammo pattern instead of a solid grey or blue was so that it could hide stains.

*****

Do the Woodland and Desert versions exist yet? Pics?

They could be a better bet for us civs to get...prolly much more available than MARPAT.

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:02:27 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
In fact, I'd rather the Navy just went to flight suits for all.

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT. YOU ARE A WANNABE.

Lots of places to stash the donuts in a flight suit.

They just make sense. Easy in. They're Nomex. And, like the brown shoe thing a couple of years ago, it would piss off the flyboys.

What's not to like?

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:06:13 PM EDT

[#25]

I still think it's a bad idea for every service to have it's own pet set of cammies. Used to be you could tell fairly accurately who was who given uniform and gear. Now it's a freaking mish-mash. Who do I shoot?

Posted: 3/3/2006 8:09:32 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
www.uniformmarket.com/magazine/110204/graphics/navy1.jpg

Is like the army, tie-dyed in blue!

Is like the MARPAT, tie-yed in blue

How about using coveralls underway and something else on shore (field v. parade/garrison type)...

There has to be something better

Posted: 3/4/2006 1:40:36 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
In fact, I'd rather the Navy just went to flight suits for all.

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT. YOU ARE A WANNABE.

Lots of places to stash the donuts in a flight suit.

They just make sense. Easy in. They're Nomex. And, like the brown shoe thing a couple of years ago, it would piss off the flyboys.

What's not to like?

Actually I don't think it would piss us off. If everybody wore flight suits we would never have to wear a real uniform like we do now.

I have been saying for a couple years that the flight suit is the one joint uniform that we have so we should all wear it.

Posted: 3/4/2006 10:07:44 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Although the "Master Chief" in the picture needs to roll those sleeves up a little bit better.

They always look like shit when you roll them that way.

I'd tell you how we did it right in the Air Force, but it's probably too complicated.

We rolled them correctly in The Army.

If it gets hot enough, the USAF just switches to Hawaiin shirts and shorts.

Posted: 3/4/2006 10:27:50 AM EDT

[#29]

They should go with just a basic grey BDU, no camo pattern just one solid grey and so should the Air Force.

Posted: 3/4/2006 10:54:09 AM EDT

[#30]

As a history guy, I still really like the WW2 type uniforms. With these the RN looks more like, well, a Navy then our guys.

I don't get the whole "everybody must wear cool looking camo" thing recently, especially in the Navy and USAF.

The post above me makes a good point if they're worried about paint or something.

I dunno, I see this camo and my first thought is "We wish we were Marines."

Posted: 3/4/2006 11:00:18 AM EDT

[#31]

And I thought the new USAF BDUs were ugly......this is one contest I'm glad the Navy won.

Posted: 3/4/2006 11:00:21 AM EDT

[#32]

This, of course will absolutly throw the Navy's " security" experts in a tizzy. I mean, how can we possibly keep terrorists away if a sailor is not on watch in their service dress blues/white uniform? ( no "gasp" gun of course) and if they ~must~ have a gun, it must be unloaded.

Posted: 3/4/2006 11:02:23 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

If it gets hot enough, the USAF just switches to Hawaiin shirts and shorts.

An unidentified USAF officer modelling the new summer uniform at an undisclosed tactical location:

Posted: 3/4/2006 11:31:20 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
This, of course will absolutly throw the Navy's " security" experts in a tizzy. I mean, how can we possibly keep terrorists away if a sailor is not on watch in their service dress blues/white uniform? ( no "gasp" gun of course) and if they ~must~ have a gun, it must be unloaded.

My guess is you haven't been around the Navy in the last 5 or so years.

Posted: 3/4/2006 11:36:31 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:

If it gets hot enough, the USAF just switches to Hawaiin shirts and shorts.

An unidentified USAF officer modelling the new summer uniform at an undisclosed tactical location:

www.hksquadron.com/Images/golfer.jpg

You couldn't make this stuff up!

Reflecting a military presence; the classic sense of style and gracious hospitality, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base carries an air of true timeless elegance. High-end amenities, exceptional facilities and an unforgettable golf experience are the standard at this military resort.

The envy of many golf courses, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base boasts three 18 hole championship courses that are created from an extraordinary design and provides an enjoyable challenge for golfers at all skill levels.

Our distinguishing attribute extends beyond just the three golf courses. It's reflected in everything we have to offer at The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base, including our professional tournament operations, food and beverage signature outlets, the only military resort resale golf shop, our complimentary practice facilities, and our state-of-the-art fitness center. Moreover, we are committed to making The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base a place of warmth, hospitality, and operational efficiency. To us, that means prompt, courteous service, and genuine responsiveness to your needs.

We hope you enjoy your experience at The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base and will use the facilities often.

Remember, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base...."where we have accomplished something very special."

www.aafbgc.com/

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:07:24 PM EDT

[#36]

No reason at all to replace the coveralls....easy to get on for GQ, easily to maintain. The new uniforms are just moronic.

The decision to get rid of Summer Whites and Working Blues is overdue, but the right decision would have been to bring back the "salt and pepper" uniform for shore duty assignments. Could have just removed the requirement for rate insignia on the sleeve and go with collar devices. Also the decision to delete tropical uniforms was a mistake. Anyone who has served on Diego Garcia can attest to that.

BTW, the CNO was looking into bringing back Dress Khaki....in 1992. I was part of the survey team. Don't get your hopes up.

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:08:59 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:

If it gets hot enough, the USAF just switches to Hawaiin shirts and shorts.

An unidentified USAF officer modelling the new summer uniform at an undisclosed tactical location:

www.hksquadron.com/Images/golfer.jpg

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:09:39 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

If it gets hot enough, the USAF just switches to Hawaiin shirts and shorts.

An unidentified USAF officer modelling the new summer uniform at an undisclosed tactical location:

www.hksquadron.com/Images/golfer.jpg

You couldn't make this stuff up!

Reflecting a military presence; the classic sense of style and gracious hospitality, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base carries an air of true timeless elegance. High-end amenities, exceptional facilities and an unforgettable golf experience are the standard at this military resort.

The envy of many golf courses, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base boasts three 18 hole championship courses that are created from an extraordinary design and provides an enjoyable challenge for golfers at all skill levels.

Our distinguishing attribute extends beyond just the three golf courses. It's reflected in everything we have to offer at The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base, including our professional tournament operations, food and beverage signature outlets, the only military resort resale golf shop, our complimentary practice facilities, and our state-of-the-art fitness center. Moreover, we are committed to making The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base a place of warmth, hospitality, and operational efficiency. To us, that means prompt, courteous service, and genuine responsiveness to your needs.

We hope you enjoy your experience at The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base and will use the facilities often.

Remember, The Courses at Andrews Air Force Base...."where we have accomplished something very special."

www.aafbgc.com/

It's not just the Air Force.
All branches of the US military are deeply enamored with golf.
I've seen sergeants in long drive contests with general officers, CWOs paying cash bets to 2LTs. Unfortunately, only the Air Force can keep up the best courses.

When I was in Germany, one of the ADA/Artillery posts in southern Germany had a deal with the local farmers. The farmers took Army property and put in a rough course (9 holes) while the US Army covered the clubhouse and bar. This worked so well that, while other communities were demanding the removal of US troops (late 1991), this community was building local housing to bring in more soldiers and their families. It wasn't a great course, but it was the only game in town.

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:10:47 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
No reason at all to replace the coveralls....easy to get on for GQ, easily to maintain. The new uniforms are just moronic.

The decision to get rid of Summer Whites and Working Blues is overdue, but the right decision would have been to bring back the "salt and pepper" uniform for shore duty assignments. Could have just removed the requirement for rate insignia on the sleeve and go with collar devices. Also the decision to delete tropical uniforms was a mistake. Anyone who has served on Diego Garcia can attest to that.

BTW, the CNO was looking into bringing back Dress Khaki....in 1992. I was part of the survey team. Don't get your hopes up.

Coveralls are not going away, just utilities and wash khakis.

I have a feeling Midnight Mike will bring back the SDKs. There has been a huge grass roots movement.

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:25:59 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
No reason at all to replace the coveralls....easy to get on for GQ, easily to maintain.

The only problem with coveralls is when you have to take a dump.
Nothing was worse than seeing someone's coveralls laying on the deck around their ankles inside of the shitter the day after there had been half a foot of CHT covering the deck.

I think its been a waste of money to study these uniforms, the Navy should have gone with the same stuff the USAF and USA wear.

Ditching the Johnny Cash / Waffen SS uniforms was a bad idea, however, if it gets rid if the cunt cap / piss-cutter I am all for it.

It's about time the Ice Cream man uniform went away.

Bring back command ball-caps!!!

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:28:12 PM EDT

[#41]

And here is the new USAF uniform.

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:39:54 PM EDT

[#42]

"My guess is you haven't been around the Navy in the last 5 or so years."

yes that is almost correct

6 actually

and the time before that?? well I have no hair on the top of my head

, and it could'nt have ~possibly~ been from pulling it out in frustration

I'm glad they are finaly getting away from the prison uniform. waffen SS uniforms were hot, Ice cream uniforms were just plain dorky. I liked the service dress uniforms. But polyester should have been left in the seventies.

Posted: 3/4/2006 12:41:25 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
And here is the new USAF uniform.
www.vaq34.com/afuniform3.jpg

No, no, no......To make an Air Force member truly blend into the background, the camouflage needs to have pencils, coffee cups, and mouse pads on it. Maybe some powdered sugar stains from the donuts.....

Posted: 3/4/2006 1:36:59 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
I still think it's a bad idea for every service to have it's own pet set of cammies.

And more expensive too...so much for the economy of scale possible with a universal service uniform. But we are picking up the tab, so why should they worry?

Posted: 3/4/2006 3:00:55 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I still think it's a bad idea for every service to have it's own pet set of cammies.

And more expensive too...so much for the economy of scale possible with a universal service uniform. But we are picking up the tab, so why should they worry?

Uniform costs are minimal when compared to weapons systems and ammunition.
Commonality on the M1-series tank was a big success.
Commonality on artillery and artillery munitions completely eclipses any uniform issues.

I think giving soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines a distinctive personal appearance is fine and worth the cost.

Posted: 3/4/2006 3:40:35 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I still think it's a bad idea for every service to have it's own pet set of cammies.

And more expensive too...so much for the economy of scale possible with a universal service uniform. But we are picking up the tab, so why should they worry?

Uniform costs are minimal when compared to weapons systems and ammunition.
Commonality on the M1-series tank was a big success.
Commonality on artillery and artillery munitions completely eclipses any uniform issues.

I think giving soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines a distinctive personal appearance is fine and worth the cost.

Good point!

Posted: 3/4/2006 6:04:51 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Pics of the new camo:

www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=32392

www.navy.mil/management/photodb/webphoto/web_051101-N-2410F-001.jpg

Try this……note the retroflective bands on the sleeves dport

i2.tinypic.com/qob0oh.jpg

ANdy

Is that Gavin MacCleod?

1SL Admiral Sir Alan West (He was Captain of HMS Ardent during the Falklands) was CiC RN, retired last month.

i2.tinypic.com/qobrz6.jpg
No 8's, normal working rig for everyone on RN ships

i2.tinypic.com/qobv4g.jpg
And this is what the well dressed young SWO about town wears at Action Stations...

OK...why are these guys wearing the burkas and gloves?

Posted: 3/4/2006 6:08:38 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
OK...why are these guys wearing the burkas and gloves?

They're flash hoods.

Posted: 3/4/2006 6:11:24 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
OK...why are these guys wearing the burkas and gloves?

They're flash hoods.

WTH does that mean?

Posted: 3/4/2006 6:13:54 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK...why are these guys wearing the burkas and gloves?

They're flash hoods.

WTH does that mean?

Protection from a sudden contact with flames though not from sustained contact or sustained heat. For the effect of flash, think Michael Jackson Pepsi commercial from the '80s - if you are old enough to remember.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New Navy Uniforms....your opinions? (Page 2 of 3)

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