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Posted: 2/22/2006 11:38:13 AM EDT
Subject: Vietnam Facts vs. Fiction

For over 30 years I....like many Vietnam veterans....seldom spoke of Vietnam, except with other veterans, when training soldiers, and in public speeches. These past five years I have joined the hundreds of thousands who believe it is high time the truth be told about the Vietnam War and the people who served there. It's time the American people learn that the United States military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.

As Americans, support the men and women involved in the War on Terrorism, the mainstream media are once again working tirelessly to undermine their efforts and force a psychological loss or stalemate for the United States. We cannot stand by and let the media do to today's warriors what they did to us 35 years a go.

Below are some assembled some facts most readers will find interesting. It isn't a long read, but it will....I guarantee....teach you some things you did not know about the Vietnam War and those who served, fought, or died there. Please share it with those with whom you communicate.


Vietnam War Facts:


Facts, Statistics, Fake Warrior Numbers, and Myths Dispelled

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam

Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.

240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War

The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.

58,148 were killed in Vietnam
75,000 were severely disabled
23,214 were 100% disabled
5,283 lost limbs
1,081 sustained multiple amputations

Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21

11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old
Of those killed, 17,539 were married
Average age of men killed: 23.1 years
Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

As of January 15, 2 004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War
97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged
91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served
74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome
Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.
Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.
87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.
There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam Veterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study)
Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.
85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian life.
Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:
1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).
~ During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
~ As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.

The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this errored index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).

Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers. - Nixon Presidential Papers

Common Myths Dispelled:

Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.
Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.

Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.

Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia - a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."

Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.
Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better.
Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action)
Deaths Average Age
Total: 58,148 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years
E1 525 20.34 years
11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years

Myth: The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.
Fact:: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20. The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.

Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.


Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ....75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border).

Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972.....shown a million times on American television....was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. >From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. Read on........

The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973.

How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States.

As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington, Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.


Please give all credit and research to:

Capt. Marshal Hanson, U.S.N.R (Ret.)

Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:40:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 11:57:46 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By CRC:
Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:
1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).
~ During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.
~ As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.



If those number are correct, that is both very sad and pathetic, and incredibly infuriating !!


ETA: I am not sure those numbers are correct. As far as I can tell, the 2000 Census does NOT ask if peopel served in Vietnam, but only asks if they served during the vietnam Era. Also, the 2000 census seems to report that 8.4 million americans report having served during the Vietname Era (aug 64 to apr 75).

So unless my reading of the 2000 Census results is incorrect, it would appear that those numbers are not true.

www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-22.pdf

If those numbers are incorrect, perhaps much of this is incorrect.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:43:43 AM EDT
Another interesting factoid.

We dropped more tonnage of bombs in a single year in Vietnam than in all theaters of the entire duration of WWII combined.

Source: Stephen Ambrose.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:44:20 AM EDT

FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.


Un believable!

To all real Viet Nam vets out there, welcome home!
I know I wouldn't be here today if one vet hadn't returned...
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:44:24 AM EDT
thanks, good post. very educational
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:45:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
For over 30 years I....like many Vietnam veterans....seldom spoke of Vietnam, except with other veterans, when training soldiers, and in public speeches. These past five years I have joined the hundreds of thousands who believe it is high time the truth be told about the Vietnam War and the people who served there. It's time the American people learn that the United States military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.





Are these your words or did you copy this from someplace? Obviously the statistics provided have a source since you gave that.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:46:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:

FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.


Un believable!

To all real Viet Nam vets out there, welcome home!
I know I wouldn't be here today if one vet hadn't returned...




Someone here suggested a book on this, called Stolen Valor, that was pretty good.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:46:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
thanks, good post. very educational



+1
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:48:41 AM EDT
Great post!! Thanks for the info
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:49:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.
Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.



Actually, I think the fact that the US pulled out of Vietnam, and the fact that Vietnam fell to the communists and then the fact that the rest of SEA didn't go communist is a good indication that the domino theory was false. If the domino theory were true, then it would have been crystal clear to communist insurgents in Thailand and Malaysia that in 1973, there would be NO world power who would oppose them.

Support for the communists in Vietnam came primarily from the fact that they were "the other guys". Popular support for the communists came from the fact that the alternative was the corrupt South Vietnamese government. This is really just a more extreme form of our own 2 party system. There are lots of people who are willing to give Bush a pass simply because he's better than the democratic alternative. There were lots of Vietnamese willing to give the communists a pass because they were widely regarded as a better alternative to the incumbent government.

This was completely different from the political situations in Thailand and Malaysia (ie, the Domino theory just wouldn't apply).
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:49:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 11:50:06 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:50:05 AM EDT
I hadn't seen that info before... good post, thanks.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:53:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:53:40 AM EDT
This was posted by a Vietnam vet on another board I sometimes visit.

Not sure where he got it.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:55:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:

Originally Posted By CRC:

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM



F'ing A!



We kicked the NVAs and Viet Congs you know what at virtually every opportunity.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:56:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 11:57:09 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By CRC:
This was posted by a Vietnam vet on another board I sometimes visit.

Not sure where he got it.





Could someone else double-check that I'm not making a mistake with the Census Report.

I don't want to call bullshit, but the statements about the 2000 Census seem incorrect, since both the numbers are off, and since it talks about the Census numbers for who was in-country, when the Census appears to limit its questions to "Vietnam-Era" and doesn't differentiate further.


I agree with every sentiment IN the post, but would hate for it to turn out ot be based on made-up numbers.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:56:26 AM EDT
We lost.

However you shake it, in the end the enemy held the entire country.
We didn't defeat them and VN is a perfect example of winning most of the battles and losing the war.

IMO his saying that we didn't lose detracts from the rest of his message.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 11:58:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:00:33 PM EDT
Very informative and I am very glad you posted it!!

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:03:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
We lost.

However you shake it, in the end the enemy held the entire country.
We didn't defeat them and VN is a perfect example of winning most all of the battles and losing the war.

IMO his saying that we didn't lose detracts from the rest of his message.


Only the US throws in the towel at the end of the 12th round when we won them all.
We lost because of people in the US, not because of the people in Vietnam.



Absolutely. I could not agree more.
You should have seen the libs at work rambling on about how Iraq was another Viet Nam. I told them that the Viet Nam War was lost, "RIGHT HERE" as I tapped on their fricking desks with my finger. LOL.


As to the domino theory, Laos and Cambodia would indicate that the domino theory was correct.


Maybe.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:11:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
As to the domino theory, Laos and Cambodia would indicate that the domino theory was correct.



Not really. These were all essentially the same country (the remnants of French IndoChina). The political situations in Malaysia, Thailand, and the Philippines were completely different. If the domino theory were correct, then why didn't any of the other SEA countries fall to the communists after it became 100% certain that no western power would oppose them?

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:16:59 PM EDT
Good info
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:21:34 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:21:53 PM EDT
This is a chunk of an email my father sent to one of my cousins who had a class project due on the subject of the war.

I was never seriously hurt. Our camp had 34 Americans in it during the bulk of my stay. We were shelled almost nightly, usually at 3 am or later in the morning. We were well protected by bunkers but above ground movement was dangerous at times. During my time with B-334, the camp designator for An Loc Special Forces Camp, we were probed by ground attack more than a dozen times, though never suffering a break through or over run. Of the 34 men I lived with, 12 were killed or wounded in action. I was and will always be proud of the men I served with. They went when their country called. Too often then and now it was easy for those who had no direct knowledge of the war to minimize, criticize, and eventually to cripple the efforts of those who served. President Reagan said best in my opinion; in truth we fought for a noble cause. We sent our young men to stop the spread of tyranny.
I’ve found very little written about the war that did not focus to obsession on the agony of the Vietnamese villagers, the corruption of their government, or the supposed depravity of our troops. I knew as acquaintances, several reporters from my maintenance trips to Bien Hoa, north of Saigon. On several occasions I offered them the chance to visit “up country”; none ever accepted. What I read in the papers from home bore little resemblance to the way I fought. Then as now, the press corps obsessed with the “shameful” aspects of our presence. The day to day operations and interactions of our troops with the local people and the good that came of it went unreported. It has colored my opinion of the news media ever since. In a phrase; they’re only trying to sell newspapers.
I guess I’ve gone on about enough of this. For me personally, I do dream of them sometimes, the men we left there, living and dead; and I wish that I could have helped them more. For them and in their names, I flew 400 plus missions and was awarded two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Vietnamese Crosses of Gallantry, and a handful of Air Medals. I made two “non-counter” airborne parachute jumps with them and patrolled enough in the bush with one of the A camps to qualify for the Combat Infantryman’s Badge. I did what I could at the time with the tools available to me and the arrogance of some who would speak for them now 36 years later disgusts me. Not all of us were noble over there, some were less than human; but by far the vast majority were American boys serving to the best of their ability and just wishing to get the job down and move on with their lives.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:23:36 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:26:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
We lost.

However you shake it, in the end the enemy held the entire country.
We didn't defeat them and VN is a perfect example of winning most all of the battles and losing the war.

IMO his saying that we didn't lose detracts from the rest of his message.


Only the US throws in the towel at the end of the 12th round when we won them all.
We lost because of people in the US, not because of the people in Vietnam.

As to the domino theory, Laos and Cambodia would indicate that the domino theory was correct.



exactly, history shows that communism is completely contrary to human nature, with millions of bodies to show for it over the last century.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:36:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 12:36:57 PM EDT by CalGat]
Also, "In-Country" may only refer to Army, AF, or Marines with boots on the ground and not necessarily the many thousands of sailors who were out in the South China Sea and Yankee Station putting their lifes on the line as well. Or the Airmen in Thailand loading the bombers, and elsewhere who I also consider Vietnam Vets.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:56:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
As to the domino theory, Laos and Cambodia would indicate that the domino theory was correct.



Not really. These were all essentially the same country (the remnants of French IndoChina). The political situations in Malaysia, Thailand, and the Philippines were completely different. If the domino theory were correct, then why didn't any of the other SEA countries fall to the communists after it became 100% certain that no western power would oppose them?




Wrong, they were all their own country with unique ethnic groups and governements. In fact, the entire idea that Vietnam is one country is wrong. Before 1975 out of the previous 500 years Tthe land we know as Vietnam had only been unified under one government for 50 years (excluding periods during which it was occupied). The Withdrawal of SEATO troops from Vietnam allowed Peking and Moscow controlled communists to consolodate power acrouse the entire region. Communist inspired insurgencies intensified or sprang up in every country adjacent to the new communist countries. Just because they didn't fall doesn't mean the theory was discredited, just that the dominos were propped up somewhere else (in different and more succesful ways).

If you don't believe this why don't you look at a map of Africa and color all nations that had fallen to Communist insurgencies red. Then put the date of the communist win. Yet more evidence for the Domino theory. Then do it to Central America, yet more evidence.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:56:35 PM EDT
it was all just another example of politics screwing up something whatever it puts it's hand to
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:24:58 PM EDT
Very interesting read.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:31:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:02:35 PM EDT
another good book that will back up these figures is called "Unheralded Victory"
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:07:44 PM EDT
Thank you.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:18:41 PM EDT
I would never have joined the United States Marine Corps if it were not for my Vietnam veteran uncle, who served in country with the Marines. I had such a profound respect for him, that I wanted to be like him, not my own father. He was the epitome of what a it meant to be a "man". Strong, brave, smart, fearless....he came home to raise a family, he joined the National Guard and served there for 28 yrs, he held the same job in the same company after returning home for 25 years. Everything that we would think of as a successful American.
We can debate the war's outcome and it's causes for 35 more years. Or we can just accept the fact that we as Americans all have differing views of politics and wars, and the cause and effect of such wars. I have waited for men to exit their vehicles, just so I could say "Thank you" and shake their hand, after I saw their 'Veteran' license plates. Here in Ohio, you can get veteran plates with either your branch of service on it, or the service ribbon from the conflict you fought in. When I see veteran plates, I have no problem saying 'Thank you', no matter what war they served in.
All these men and women deserve our UTMOST respect, and admiration. It doesn't mean you necessarily believe in the war they fought. It shows that you BELIEVE IN THEM, and that you BELIEVE IN AMERICA. These men and women who are willing to lay down their lives for people they will never know, says alot to me.
So for me to say "Thank you" requires no thought at all. TO ALL OUR VETERANS AND CURRENT ACTIVE DUTY ARMED FORCES........I SALUTE YOU WITH A HUGE THANK YOU!

Semper Fi!


Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:02:55 PM EDT
I would still nuke those bastards today if it were up to me. Fuck those politicians who didn't have a real plan (sound familiar) as to what our guys were supposed to accomplish. We either own the country and the one sending in the NVA or forget about it. Should've been a couple of years at most.

I'm going to go watch We Were Soldiers again....the ending is more to my liking.

BTW, Vietnam ERA vet......thank God for the Pueblo!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:17:43 PM EDT
Posts like these shouldn't be allowed since they are so dangerous to liberals:

I feel like killing every fucking one of them right now!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:18:16 PM EDT
tag

great post
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:44:23 PM EDT
Also dont forget America was NOT ALONE in Vietnam. She had many allies that sent troops and weapons.

Thais
Danes
ROKs
etc
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:47:54 PM EDT
VietNam proved once and for all that America's #1 enemy is the American liberal. Liberal treason is now on display as we semi fight an ununified, half-assed war on terrorism. The American liberal will have to be defeated before America can win another war.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
Subject: Vietnam Facts vs. Fiction

It's time the American people learn that the United States military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.



My US history teacher told me that in high school. And after learning about it for the AP test, its easy to see that militarily it was a victory, but at home in the US there was no support for it by the end.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:04:26 PM EDT
For God's sake...and your own...please get a copy of the book "A Better War." The book is a study of the untold victories and amazing successes of the US military in SEA starting with Tet '68. The book is detailed and incredibly revealing. The US came very close to defeating the North, and not just in SVN. The only thing that pulled the NVN out of the fire was their well-organized efforts in the US to undermine our efforts in VN.

The book studies the records of both the south and the NVN. The interviews with the VNA and government heads are stunning. We had them by the curlies and our politicians let them go time and time again.

Abrams took over from Westy and turned the war around.

I cannot recommend this book enough for any VN vet or student of the VN War. I have told many vets about this book and given more than a few copies away. Every vet who has read the book has had nearly the same response: "I knew we had kicked Charlie's ass and this proves it."

Liberals hate this book.

I have no financial interest in the book whatsoever.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:32:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Currahee:
Wrong, they were all their own country with unique ethnic groups and governements. In fact, the entire idea that Vietnam is one country is wrong. Before 1975 out of the previous 500 years Tthe land we know as Vietnam had only been unified under one government for 50 years (excluding periods during which it was occupied).



Sure, but the political situation in each country was identical. Each had 75 years of French occupation. After WW2, the French leave, and are followed by an incompetent and corrupt government, with communism being pushed as the only viable alternative.


The Withdrawal of SEATO troops from Vietnam allowed Peking and Moscow controlled communists to consolodate power acrouse the entire region.


But that's the point. They weren't able to consolidate power across the whole region, only in 3 countries that had essentially the same political history for the previous 75 years.


Communist inspired insurgencies intensified or sprang up in every country adjacent to the new communist countries.


Actually the communist insurgency in Malaysia fell apart just as the US was leaving Vietnam. If your logic was correct here, we'd expect to see comminist insurgencies starting in Thailand, Malaysia, and Myanmar starting in 1976.


If you don't believe this why don't you look at a map of Africa and color all nations that had fallen to Communist insurgencies red. Then put the date of the communist win. Yet more evidence for the Domino theory. Then do it to Central America, yet more evidence.


I'm not arguing the validity of the Domino theory in other regions of the world. I'm arguing the validity of the Domino theory as a reason for fighting a war in Vietnam. The argument for the war in Vietnam was that we had to hold Vietnam or the rest of SEA would turn communist. We pulled out, and only the former French colonies turned communist. Nobody sold the war in '66 based on "We need to stop former French IndoChina from going communist!" It was supposed to be about a bigger picture.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:37:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
VietNam proved once and for all that America's #1 enemy is the American liberal. Liberal treason is now on display as we semi fight an ununified, half-assed war on terrorism. The American liberal will have to be defeated before America can win another war.



The liberal was the reason that we pulled out of Vietnam when we did.

But the military made some very poor decisions early on, which were in part responsible for extending the war long enough for the liberal to get his way. The focus of the American military was on preparing for an invasion from the North, rather than fighting the insurgency using tactics that worked very well during the Phillipine Revolt (Max Boot makes a pretty good argument for this in "The Savage Wars of Peace: Small Wars and the Rise of American Power".).
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 4:38:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Also dont forget America was NOT ALONE in Vietnam. She had many allies that sent troops and weapons.

Thais
Danes
ROKs
etc



I recall the ROK troops were very valuable allies, and fought the war the way it should have been fought (i.e. if you took sniper fire from a village, the entire vilage was leveled). I think they ended up having a superb kill:death ratio somewhere along the lines of 11:1.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 5:21:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 5:26:18 PM EDT by lobsterman]
in response to to the "fake vets"

It reminded me of something that happened a long time ago. I was diving with my father when we ssaw his friend, stopped briefly and talked. I noticed his veteran plates. I recalled that my father had told me that he served in the Army in Germany during part of the Vietnam War and had served during the same times and at the same place as his old buddy. I then asked( i was 7 or 8 and asked a lot of questions) why he, my dad didn't have Veteran Plates like his buddy and he told me that he thought what his buddy was doing was wrong and he felt that he had no justification for a Veteran plate. Don't pretend to be more than you are. That was over 20 years ago and i think of it very often,



eta.....spelllng

never asked my uncle, Vet that ended his second combat tour by stepping on a land mine why he never got a set.



Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:56:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Sure, but the political situation in each country was identical. Each had 75 years of French occupation. After WW2, the French leave, and are followed by an incompetent and corrupt government, with communism being pushed as the only viable alternative.



You need to rephrase "essentially the same country" (from your original post) because the only thing they had in common except communist revolutions was Japanese and French occupation. And Communism was not a viable alternative.. in none of these contries was there ever a popular communist uprising. None of these countries fell to communism until invaded by Norht Vietnamese regulars. The South Vietnamese (and Laotions) were doing quite well against there own home brewed communists) Hell after '68 there were functionaly no South Vietnamese Communists.



But that's the point. They weren't able to consolidate power across the whole region, only in 3 countries that had essentially the same political history for the previous 75 years.

Actually the communist insurgency in Malaysia fell apart just as the US was leaving Vietnam. If your logic was correct here, we'd expect to see comminist insurgencies starting in Thailand, Malaysia, and Myanmar starting in 1976.



There were communist insurgencies in Thailand and Myanmar (Burma at the time)


I'm not arguing the validity of the Domino theory in other regions of the world. I'm arguing the validity of the Domino theory as a reason for fighting a war in Vietnam. The argument for the war in Vietnam was that we had to hold Vietnam or the rest of SEA would turn communist. We pulled out, and only the former French colonies turned communist. Nobody sold the war in '66 based on "We need to stop former French IndoChina from going communist!" It was supposed to be about a bigger picture.


The simple fact, that you are unwilling to face, is that every time a country went communist is that they immediatly started exporting the insurgency to neighboring countries. This was plenty enough reason to fight in Vietnam. The problem was in execution not goal.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 5:56:12 AM EDT
plitf - Those bad decisions you are talking about were more than likely murderously horrible (and intentional) decisions made by LBJ, McNamara and friends. And the reason I think LBJ is on par with Hitler.....yeah, I said it, sue me.

When you think back about how the conservative JFK faced down the commies and the fact that he had some character you have to wonder how Vietnam would have turned out, which could have in turn severely crippled the anti-war, hate America movement. And that makes me wonder who made Oswald a stooge, Ruby a dying murderer all of which was followed by one of the strangest cover-ups in our history.

I'm not sure any president in history could have been murdered at a worse time. A time that ushered in the worst mass murderer in American history, the horribly failed Great Society and the beginning of the end of the world's only real Republic.

Vietnam virtually single handedly began the downfall of America.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:04:15 AM EDT
Thanks for posting, CRC.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:11:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr:

Originally Posted By CRC:

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM



F'ing A!




does anyone know the kill ratio?
I have heard it was ~15:1 15 dead charlie to 1 dead US serviceman. If that figure is accurate, we kicked their asses by a long shot.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:13:20 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 6:19:44 AM EDT
Our greatest enemy then and today remains people like this...

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