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Posted: 2/22/2006 7:04:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 12:26:20 PM EDT by QuantumPion]
Alrighty, so in order to get my VA CCL, I have to have official documentation that says I'm qualified with firearms. My PA CCL is not enough (since they don't require any training). So, I have to take a basic handgun safety course at my local range for $75. It's an all day thing and I figure I might as well just do it and get it over with.

Two weeks before the class, I go up to the counter of the range to sign up.
Me: When's the next basic handgun class?
FFL: Next sunday.
Me: I want to show up for it so I can get my CCL.
FFL: Yup, it's $75, all day sunday.
Me: OK, I'll be there.

One week before the class, I'm there just shooting as usual. While buying my ammo:
Me: So that class is this sunday, right?
FFL: Yup.
Me: OK, see you then.

The morning of the class:
Me: Yo, I'm here for the class.
FFL: *looks over a list* You're name isn't on the list. Did you give us the deposit?
Me: I had to put down a deposit? Why didn't you say so the last two times I was here?
FFL: You didn't say you wanted to sign up.
Me: Well, can I sign up now?
FFL: Sorry, we're out of seats.
Me: I said, on two seperate occasions, that I wanted to go to the class, and you didn't mention I needed to put down a deposit. Nor is it mentioned on your website that a deposit is required.
FFL: You were supposed to sign up and put down a deposit. If someone doesn't show up you can have their seat, but I have to give them until 15 mins after to show up.
Me: Fine.
*class starts, they cloes the doors so I can't hear, so even when I do get into the class, I miss out on the part where a lawyer talks about VA gun laws and such that is the one part of the class that I would find useful*
Me: *15 mins later* OK 2 people havn't showed up, can I sit in now?
FFL: Sorry, we have to give those people time to show up.
Me: *30 minutes later* How about now?
FFL: fine... (as if it was a hassle for them to take my money).

This class was terrible. It was supposed to be a basic handgun safety course. Many of the people in the class had never shot a gun before. I knew what the instructor was talking about but I knew no one else in the class did. He went off on so many tangents, including but not limited to:
*Describing, in depth, the action of the slide stop, how it operates, how it can fail, how to stress and relieve magazine springs, ad nauseum.
*Describing the different wounding potentials and expansion/ballistic properties of various brands of hollowpoints. He included a claim that a certain brand of hollowpoint (extreme shock or some such) were so good that a .380 could instantly kill a 500 lb russian boar, even when shot in the hind quarters. He also descbired Black Talon ammo, and how the teflon coating was put on to let it simulataneously penetrate body armor, and injure doctors trying to remove the slugs because they were so sharp and deadly.
*Described in detail failure mechanisms of semi-autos, including kabooms, hang fires, etc. This scared the hell out of the newbie shooters, they thought their gun would blow up in their hands.
*Went on and on about the differences between the .357 sig and the .40, and why we shouldn't use the .357 sig. His reasoning was that LEO use .357 sig because it can penetrate auto glass and still kill whoever's behind it, yet won't penetrate a body once it hits so its useful on aircraft.
*Made the case that you shouldn't use the best gun/ammo available for self defense, because you would be in trouble with the jury afterwards.

He spent probably 6 hours on the above, which was completely wasted on newbie shooters who had no idea what he was talking about. He only spent about 10 minutes talking about grip and sight alignment (basically, how to shoot), and about an hour on gun safety (which he did do well though). He didn't talk at all about how to clean your gun, how to pick what gun to buy, how to pick ammo, how to use your gun in self defense, or anything else even remotely useful. THe only thing good out of that class was the safety rules, the lawyer talk (which I missed), and the certificate you get which lets you get your CCL.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:04:54 AM EDT
Ha
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:06:09 AM EDT
I couldn't have stayed quiet. I would have called bullshit. What a tool.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:07:03 AM EDT
You do know a hunter's safety course would have passed the requirement, right?? And it would have been a hell of a lot more useful....
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:07:28 AM EDT
Where did you go?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:08:17 AM EDT
Once again we find another "instructor" that is more interested in hearing the sound of their voice than actually educating the students.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:42:25 AM EDT
Should have just taken a hunter's safety course.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:49:37 AM EDT
Horrible.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:10:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cheaptrickfan:
Once again we find another "instructor" that is more interested in hearing the sound of their voice than actually educating the students.




There is no shortage of them, no matter what state you are in.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:19:45 AM EDT
So how is it true tales of an FFL?

I cringe whenever someone I know tells me what he heard at his CWP class.
I cringe further when the teacher is a LEO and disseminates horshit to students.

I still refer people on an almost daily basis to my state's firearm laws.
It's the best way to put bullshit to bed.

HS1
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:23:53 AM EDT
I don't know what State you are in, (besides agitated), but in KY there is a legal provision for reporting incompetent CCW instructors. If they don't train to a certain level, you are required to report them.

As this was just a handgun safety class, I don't know if something like that would apply. If the instructor is certified by any type of governing body like the State or the NRA, I'd be damn sure to make his crap known to them.

I, too, would have had to call bullshit on a lot of the crap he was expounding, people that don't know any better shouldn't be taught a bunch of nonsensical bullshit! I'd stop payment on the check.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:41:44 AM EDT
As others have said, where did you take this course? I paid $75 for mine and it was pretty good. Supposed to last about 4 hours, but really went about 6. Much of it was informative, but some of it was a bit "in left field". One recommendation was given, "leave your firearm the way it came from the factory. Don't do any trigger jobs or anything like that so a prosecutor couldn't use that against you." Sorry, a good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of the condition or type of firearm used. MJD
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:24:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:


This class was terrible. It was supposed to be a basic handgun safety course. Many of the people in the class had never shot a gun before. I knew what the instructor was talking about but I knew no one else in the class did. He went off on so many tangents, including but not limited to:

If it was the NRA Basic Class, it is common for students to know nothing. I teach a lot of them.

*Describing, in depth, the action of the slide stop, how it operates, how it can fail, how to stress and relieve magazine springs, ad nauseum.

Lots of function related lecture is in the NRA curriculum. Its boring but required if you bill it as a NRA class.

*Describing the different wounding potentials and expansion/ballistic properties of various brands of hollowpoints. He included a claim that a certain brand of hollowpoint (extreme shock or some such) were so good that a .380 could instantly kill a 500 lb russian boar, even when shot in the hind quarters. He also descbired Black Talon ammo, and how the teflon coating was put on to let it simulataneously penetrate body armor, and injure doctors trying to remove the slugs because they were so sharp and deadly.

Not in the NRA curriculum. Sounds like a lot of BS or a sales pitch or both.

*Described in detail failure mechanisms of semi-autos, including kabooms, hang fires, etc. This scared the hell out of the newbie shooters, they thought their gun would blow up in their hands.

Required as part of the NRA curriculum. Not kabooms, but misfires, hangfires, and squib loads are required teaching.

*Went on and on about the differences between the .357 sig and the .40, and why we shouldn't use the .357 sig. His reasoning was that LEO use .357 sig because it can penetrate auto glass and still kill whoever's behind it, yet won't penetrate a body once it hits so its useful on aircraft.

Not in the NRA curriculum. More BS.

*Made the case that you shouldn't use the best gun/ammo available for self defense, because you would be in trouble with the jury afterwards.

Not in the NRA curriculum. More gun store BS. NRA requires that you teach them to use the correct ammuntion for the gun, and how to identify same. Personal defense ammo is not taught in the basic course.


He spent probably 6 hours on the above, which was completely wasted on newbie shooters who had no idea what he was talking about. He only spent about 10 minutes talking about grip and sight alignment (basically, how to shoot), and about an hour on gun safety (which he did do well though). He didn't talk at all about how to clean your gun, how to pick what gun to buy, how to pick ammo, how to use your gun in self defense, or anything else even remotely useful. THe only thing good out of that class was the safety rules, the lawyer talk (which I missed), and the certificate you get which lets you get your CCL.



The NRA curriculum requires teaching grip, sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through, huh, the Basics. They also teach gun safety and gun cleaning. Sounds like a home grown class to me. One with lots of fluff and very little substance.

At least you don't have to do it again!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:25:35 AM EDT
Does a pistol qualification on a DD 214 count as proof of competence for CCW purposes?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:28:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Does a pistol qualification on a DD 214 count as proof of competence for CCW purposes?



In VA yes
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:30:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fiend:

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Does a pistol qualification on a DD 214 count as proof of competence for CCW purposes?



In VA yes



CARTMAN: KICK ASS
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:32:02 AM EDT
True Tales of the FFL is the sole property of SteyrAUG and it's use is restricted.

Please cease and desists or a copyright violation will be in order.

Sincerely,

Gecko45 - The Mall Ninja.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 9:46:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
True Tales of the FFL is the sole property of SteyrAUG and it's use is restricted.

Please cease and desists or a copyright violation will be in order.

Sincerely,

Gecko45 - The Mall Ninja.





Uh oh......as my father sez, "repercussions and consequences" on the way.....

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 12:26:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
True Tales of the FFL is the sole property of SteyrAUG and it's use is restricted.

Please cease and desists or a copyright violation will be in order.

Sincerely,

Gecko45 - The Mall Ninja.




fine
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:38:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fiend:

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
Does a pistol qualification on a DD 214 count as proof of competence for CCW purposes?



In VA yes



A DD214 period qualifies in VA.

The ONLY thing that VA wants for a CHL is that you have or had some sort of safety training or the equivalent. Military service was IIRC specificially mentioned as qualifying. Even enough competition would satisfy I think.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:40:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
True Tales of the FFL is the sole property of SteyrAUG and it's use is restricted.

Please cease and desists or a copyright violation will be in order.

Sincerely,

Gecko45 - The Mall Ninja.




fine



Did ya notice the smiley?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:51:42 PM EDT
Hell the guy who taught the CHL class I went to looked like he should have been on oxygen. Couldn't even stand up. OOOOOOOOOld. Taught the class about legal stuff, not how to shoot. Then we had the shooting test. I wonder if he ever questioned why people would fail the shooting test?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 1:57:45 PM EDT
Thank god I have a DD214.

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:09:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
Alrighty, so in order to get my VA CCL, I have to have official documentation that says I'm qualified with firearms. My PA CCL is not enough (since they don't require any training). So, I have to take a basic handgun safety course at my local range for $75. It's an all day thing and I figure I might as well just do it and get it over with.
<snip>



Would one of the NRA basic handgun classes count? There are probably 800 people on here certified by the NRA to teach those classes at least, you would probably find a couple who would run you through fast.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 2:28:56 PM EDT
This has already been asked, but I will ask it again: what range was this at?

I am going to get a CCL once I get my new driver's license for Virginia. I would like to know where to avoid.

Unfortuantely, it sounds that this might be the place that I was thinking about, but I will leave the name out for now to avoid confusion so their reputatin is not tarnished if it is not them.
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:50:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 3:59:01 PM EDT
hello!!!

i think i know what range you are talking about, but how about a confirmation!!
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:43:13 PM EDT
it starts with a "D" and ends with "ominion shooting range".

Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:46:28 PM EDT
Maybe he was trying to pick up some chicks?
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:50:43 PM EDT
heh nice
wonder if he sells jerky on the weekends
I don't even know where my NRA instructor shit is anymore
still send the $10 or whatever checks and get my neat diploma every year
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 7:55:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 7:56:47 PM EDT by tripytrucker]


Would one of the NRA basic handgun classes count? There are probably 800 people on here certified by the NRA to teach those classes at least, you would probably find a couple who would run you through fast.





Yes

dt-concepts.com/ Excellent instructor,very safety oriented,offers all types of training
Link Posted: 2/22/2006 8:04:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/22/2006 8:04:31 PM EDT by LANCEMAN]
Don't forget the non-resident Florida CWL permit, VA honors it. Good enough and not hard to get.
Link Posted: 2/23/2006 4:29:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuantumPion:
it starts with a "D" and ends with "ominion shooting range".




I figured this, I got my permit there also. They are usually pretty good, I am surprised they didn't say anything to you about the deposit. Everytime I talked to them about taking the course they mentioned the deposit.

Who taught the course? When I got mine, no BS was spewed like that, i'm interested even more now. But you are right about the people there, most of them knew nothing. There was a brother in the back behind me dry firing his revolver the whole time. A sistah asked if she could shoot her ex-husband if he tried to kidnap her kid. Oh man it was BAD.

The lawyer I had was pretty good, and had a lot of good info.
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