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Posted: 2/16/2006 9:25:45 PM EDT
I was at the National Guard Armory tonight. I was visiting with a nice Sgt there. We got on a discussion about the second amendment and he was of the opinion that the National Guard is the Militia and are to be the ones with the weapons. That normal citizens should not have "assault weapons" or 50 calibers. I politely let him know I had a different opinion and moved on to other topics.

How prevalent are these ideas amongst todays guardsman?

I respect all of those that serve our country however if this attitude is prevalent or one that is being esposed by todays guard I am concerned.

I still think if the guard was given an order to disarm civilians that most guardsman would refuse to obey the order. Maybe I am wrong.

Was the Guard used in New Orleans to take guns or was it Law Enforcement??

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:36:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:41:54 PM EDT by AlaskaJohn]
The definition of Militia may vary from state to state. Alaska has an organized militia and an un-organized militia.
We even have a Naval Militia and a State Defense Force.

Alaska Statute Title 26

ETA: Fixed Link
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:45:49 PM EDT
You might find this interesting.

Wikipedia: State_Defense_Forces
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 9:51:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2006 9:55:55 PM EDT by STRATIOTES]
The ideal of self government has become rare in America, independent self sufficient people don't generally enlist in the military, they exist but they are rare.




That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies in time of peace should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. — George Mason, Article 13 of The Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776



Madison on the Militia
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country. Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-44

... large and permanent military establishments which are forbidden by the principles of free government, and against the necessity of which the militia were meant to be a constitutional bulwark. Fourth Annual Message, November 4, 1812

An efficient militia is authorized and contemplated by the Constitution and required by the spirit and safety of free government.
Eighth Annual Message, December 3, 1816







Thomas Paine on Arms
Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them.
— Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775).
Tench Coxe on the Second Amendment
Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

Tench Coxe on the Militia
Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American .. the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God [click on this link for an eye-opener-ed. note] it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.






Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:11:53 PM EDT
The concept of a regulated official or non official militia is not something that is reflected in either active or inactive US Army training. It was probably that NCOs personal opinion that he was expressing, which BTW he has the right to do. Might try backing off the conspiricy kool-aid, its making you paranoid.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:13:42 PM EDT
His belief,i dont think the Army spends much time teaching the Second.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:29:19 PM EDT
He is full of shi& and needs to have his ass deploied to Iraq for some further instruction.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:43:53 PM EDT
A few guys in my old unit have AR's, and I'd say most are hunters/shooters.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:48:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
His belief,i dont think the Army spends much time teaching the Second.



All I remmember was that I took the oath to defend and protect, From that point on it was up to me to figure out what I agree'd to ment.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:48:55 AM EDT
The National Guard considers themselve to be the decendents of the organized militias of the 1700's and 1800's.

Like many organizations in the Army, they have an lineage that is technically correct, but realistically full of shit.

The 10th Mountain for example was deactivated after WWII and stayed deactivated until 1985. Other than the name, there is very little similarity to the 10th of the 1940's and the 10th of today.

The National Guard honestly considers itself to be today's organized militia. When I joined a few weeks ago, the MSgt at the recruiting station tried to tell me that the NG had been around since the late 1600's.

This idea is nothing more than an effort to increase pride in units and organizations that may lack the prestige of some others.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:28:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:33:14 AM EDT
Sometime asshats manage to get in, that is all.

It is not rare on a gun show/drill weekend for us for Saturdays lunch to be extended a little bit so everyone can grab a burger at the fun show, and 1/3 of the unit will be there.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:48:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
His belief,i dont think the Army spends much time teaching the Second.



+1
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 2:05:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:19:30 AM EDT
Unless I've been sleeping in class, the Army has never taught me, either as enlisted or an officer, about how to interpret any part of the Constitution.

NTM
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:23:47 AM EDT
you're gonna find most folks who aren't part of the "extremist white supremacist redneck cowboy hate/war monger gun culture" are pretty unedumacated about the constitution in general and the second amendment in particular.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:24:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Unless I've been sleeping in class, the Army has never taught me, either as enlisted or an officer, about how to interpret any part of the Constitution.

NTM



+1

Although I have seen more than one tool box with an NRA sticker on it.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:26:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 8:26:41 AM EDT by QShok]


10 USC Sec. 311 TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males
at least 17 years of age and....under 45 years of age....
and of female citizens....who are members of the National Guard.



Shok
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:27:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
Unless I've been sleeping in class, the Army has never taught me, either as enlisted or an officer, about how to interpret any part of the Constitution.

NTM




+1 my experience as well (except for the officer part)
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:36:35 AM EDT
The National Guard is as diverse an organization as any. I don't ever remember being taught anything about the 2nd in active duty or after joining the Air Guard.

~Dg84
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:39:29 AM EDT
One mans opinion. Nothing more.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:40:20 AM EDT
diversity
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:40:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By utahcybercowboy:
I was at the National Guard Armory tonight. I was visiting with a nice Sgt there. We got on a discussion about the second amendment and he was of the opinion that the National Guard is the Militia and are to be the ones with the weapons. That normal citizens should not have "assault weapons" or 50 calibers. I politely let him know I had a different opinion and moved on to other topics.

How prevalent are these ideas amongst todays guardsman?

I respect all of those that serve our country however if this attitude is prevalent or one that is being esposed by todays guard I am concerned.

I still think if the guard was given an order to disarm civilians that most guardsman would refuse to obey the order. Maybe I am wrong.

Was the Guard used in New Orleans to take guns or was it Law Enforcement??



When I as deployed to Iraq '03 I asked the NCOIC of my team (who was with DITRA and was former infantry) what a carbine was as I didn't know the definition. He proceeded to tell me that he didn't know what it was or how it worked, but that his M4 carbine had higher muzzle velocity and longer range than my standard M16.

I knew he was wrong but knew better than to argue with him.


Moral of the story: Take comments like that with a grain of salt.

sst7
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:46:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 12:48:16 PM EDT by utahcybercowboy]


Moral of the story: Take comments like that with a grain of salt.

sst7



I only hope that this is the opinion of the minority of guardsmen. (Just to be clear not the grain of salt part. The part where 2nd amendment rights belong to the National Guard.)

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:50:22 PM EDT
What part of NATIONALguard don't they understand ? how does something created in 1903 relate to the second amendment of 1791 that is nothing more than a restriction on government has has nothing to do with granting the right to self defense.


Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
His belief,i dont think the Army spends much time teaching the Second.



All I remmember was that I took the oath to defend and protect, From that point on it was up to me to figure out what I agree'd to ment.



You agreed to follow the orders of the CINC and officers over you, any contract you have is superceeded by you must follow orders clause, or at least thats what they have everyone believing.


"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would."

(John Adams, Boston Gazette, Sept. 5, 1763, reprinted in 3 The Works of John Adams 438, Charles F. Adams ed., 1851)

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 1:55:04 PM EDT
Since Guardsmen are drawn from society , then you will find the same range of opinions in uniform that you find elsewhere in our society. This is not an issue of what the Guard does or does not "teach".
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