Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/15/2006 2:57:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 2:57:38 PM EDT by Hylton]
Wanted to share the website with you guys.

ATF Abuse


Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:59:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 2:59:21 PM EDT by HarrySacz]
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:59:06 PM EDT
Well they stopped sending me papers finally
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:01:59 PM EDT
I’d hit it
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:14:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 3:19:00 PM EDT by Hylton]

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



Remembering Randy Weaver
by Wally Conger-

Randy Weaver had reason to distrust his government. In 1991, an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) entrapped Weaver by hiring him to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.



Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:18:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 3:18:38 PM EDT by HarrySacz]

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



Remembering Randy Weaver
by Wally Conger-

Randy Weaver had reason to distrust his government. In 1991, an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) entrapped Weaver by hiring him to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.



Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.




I was just wondering about who the shooter worked for, i thought it was FBI,but perhaps i was mistaken.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:25:02 PM EDT
Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



Remembering Randy Weaver
by Wally Conger-

Randy Weaver had reason to distrust his government. In 1991, an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) entrapped Weaver by hiring him to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.


Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.



Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.




Sure glad those brave federales went home safe that night. Sniping a woman carrying a baby and shooting a fleeing child in the back is something to be proud of; they all got promotions after that, if not medals.

None of them was ever prosecuted for their crimes. Even if America won't, I pray God will dispense justice on those animals.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:41:24 PM EDT
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:46:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 3:47:12 PM EDT by chips]

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:49:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



and you'd be right.

Lon Horiuchi - FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge. Aug. 22 1992, Horiuchi fired a shot at a man ducking into the cabin. The shot killed Vicki Weaver as she stood inside the cabin behind the door, holding her infant daughter, Elisheba. The killing occurred on the second day of an 11 day standoff that began with a shoot out that killed the Weavers son Samuel, 14 and U.S. Deputy Marshal Willam Degan. The federal government, though, is leaping to Horiuchi’s defense, because he was obeying an order. But the Nuremberg and My Lai prosecutions have established that "I vas just following orders" is no excuse for killing innocent people. The license-to-kill orders were so outrageous that other FBI snipers at the scene -- for example, the SWAT team from Denver -- agreed among themselves that the license-to-kill order should not be obeyed. The Denver agents chose to disobey the unconstitutional order, and instead to stick with the traditional rules of engagement. Besides choosing to obey an illegal assassination order, Horiuchi lied under oath at Randy Weaver’s trial. Horiuchi claimed that he opened fire on Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris because the two men were threatening to shoot an FBI helicopter. But the trial judge found this testimony so blatantly false that he ordered the charges related to the testimony to be dismissed. (The helicopter was nowhere near where Weaver or Harris could have shot at it.) [The Ruby Ridge Prosecutions]

Lon Horiuchi - Horiuchi allegedly shot several Davidians as the attempted to flee their burning church.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:50:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:53:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Bear:

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.


No, he wasn't a member of Aryan Nation. He went to a few of their meetings but he wanted nothing to do with them.



More government propaganda to distort the peoples attention away from the criminal acts committed by the BATF
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:57:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 3:58:01 PM EDT by Thealien]
Gerry Spence, Who represented Randy Weaver at trial and got him aquited of all charges except failure to apear. Wrote a great book on this entire case.

The title is something like

From Freedom to Slavery
The rebirth of tyranny in AMerica.

Should be read by All!!
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:00:47 PM EDT
"I'm the government and I'm here to help."
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:02:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.



As stated before, he was not a member of the aryan nations. Even if he was, how does that justify the murder of his wife and son?

Another good read is Vicki, Sam, and America how the government killed all three. It is by Randy Weaver.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:05:47 PM EDT
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:07:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:09:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 4:38:30 PM EDT by P08]

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?






Well, I am glad that some here actually thinks. Is that the best you can do? I think we can all tell your intellect from your post.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:09:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tsonda4570:

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.



As stated before, he was not a member of the aryan nations. Even if he was, how does that justify the murder of his wife and son?


just as i said, his affiliation was no excuse. my post was in response to someone saying he was a true American. imo, even attending an aryan nation meeting and associating yourself with the "white power" crowd makes you a grade A asshole.

and with that said, i also think that murdering his wife and kid is incredibly fucked up. it's just another addition to the list of why our government has grown too powerful...
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:11:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?






Well, I am glad that some here actually think. Is that the best you can do? I think we can all tell your intellect from your post.




Read his book. He needed the money and he says he regrets doing it.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



and you'd be right.

Lon Horiuchi - FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge. Aug. 22 1992, Horiuchi fired a shot at a man ducking into the cabin. The shot killed Vicki Weaver as she stood inside the cabin behind the door, holding her infant daughter, Elisheba. The killing occurred on the second day of an 11 day standoff that began with a shoot out that killed the Weavers son Samuel, 14 and U.S. Deputy Marshal Willam Degan. The federal government, though, is leaping to Horiuchi’s defense, because he was obeying an order. But the Nuremberg and My Lai prosecutions have established that "I vas just following orders" is no excuse for killing innocent people. The license-to-kill orders were so outrageous that other FBI snipers at the scene -- for example, the SWAT team from Denver -- agreed among themselves that the license-to-kill order should not be obeyed. The Denver agents chose to disobey the unconstitutional order, and instead to stick with the traditional rules of engagement. Besides choosing to obey an illegal assassination order, Horiuchi lied under oath at Randy Weaver’s trial. Horiuchi claimed that he opened fire on Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris because the two men were threatening to shoot an FBI helicopter. But the trial judge found this testimony so blatantly false that he ordered the charges related to the testimony to be dismissed. (The helicopter was nowhere near where Weaver or Harris could have shot at it.) [The Ruby Ridge Prosecutions]

Lon Horiuchi - Horiuchi allegedly shot several Davidians as the attempted to flee their burning church.



I wonder if old Lonny boy knows how much of a hated son of a bitch he is.......
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:13:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.



He was not a white supremacist, he was a white seperatist.
The ATF tried to get him to become an informant on the Aryan Nations.
Weaver refused, so the ATF then concocted this whole elaborate scheme to get him.
Moral of the story: Don't embarass the .gov
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:14:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?



Teehee.
Randy Weaver cut the bbls down, but they were not below the 18 inches.
What was under the legal limit was the shotguns over all length.
Anyone care to guess just how far under the legal limit the guns OAL was?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:16:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?



Teehee.
Randy Weaver cut the bbls down, but they were not below the 18 inches.
What was under the legal limit was the shotguns over all length.
Anyone care to guess just how far under the legal limit the guns OAL was?



Less than a quarter of an inch, right?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:22:46 PM EDT
The only thing that gives the ATF power is fear.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:23:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.



and you'd be right.

Lon Horiuchi - FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge. Aug. 22 1992, Horiuchi fired a shot at a man ducking into the cabin. The shot killed Vicki Weaver as she stood inside the cabin behind the door, holding her infant daughter, Elisheba. The killing occurred on the second day of an 11 day standoff that began with a shoot out that killed the Weavers son Samuel, 14 and U.S. Deputy Marshal Willam Degan. The federal government, though, is leaping to Horiuchi’s defense, because he was obeying an order. But the Nuremberg and My Lai prosecutions have established that "I vas just following orders" is no excuse for killing innocent people. The license-to-kill orders were so outrageous that other FBI snipers at the scene -- for example, the SWAT team from Denver -- agreed among themselves that the license-to-kill order should not be obeyed. The Denver agents chose to disobey the unconstitutional order, and instead to stick with the traditional rules of engagement. Besides choosing to obey an illegal assassination order, Horiuchi lied under oath at Randy Weaver’s trial. Horiuchi claimed that he opened fire on Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris because the two men were threatening to shoot an FBI helicopter. But the trial judge found this testimony so blatantly false that he ordered the charges related to the testimony to be dismissed. (The helicopter was nowhere near where Weaver or Harris could have shot at it.) [The Ruby Ridge Prosecutions]

Lon Horiuchi - Horiuchi allegedly shot several Davidians as the attempted to flee their burning church.



I wonder if old Lonny boy knows how much of a hated son of a bitch he is.......




I'm sure he doesn't even care. Otherwise he'd find a new occupation. He's still training snipers for the FBI.

Put a murder in charge of training others. That prick should be in prison.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:27:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.



He was not a white supremacist, he was a white seperatist.

please excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference? he liked black people, but didn't think they had any business near white people?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:32:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chips:
think they had any business near white people?



Not sure about the difference.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about a person's skin color, but that's my choice.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 4:34:48 PM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By chips:

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.

am i the only one that noticed he was a member of the aryan nation?

it's no excuse for the abuse of power, but this guy is still an asshole.



He was not a white supremacist, he was a white seperatist.

please excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference? he liked black people, but didn't think they had any business near white people?




In his book he says he believes races should live in separate communities, because it creates more problems than it solves.

I see where he's going with it and I see some of his logic. However, I think there is a better answer. Try getting the "so-called" leaders of different races to start holding people accountable to their merit, instead of their race. I don't see black or white, I see how people treat each other and how good of a person they are. That's how I base my opinion of someone.

Yeah, the races have problems. All of them. Each race or social group needs to be honest and address their own issues. THEN racism might have a change of being a thing of the past. I gave Bill Cosby a lot of respect for being open and honest, then he gets called an "uncle tom".
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:37:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeWang:

Originally Posted By chips:
think they had any business near white people?



Not sure about the difference.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about a person's skin color, but that's my choice.

the same thing here. i've never understood the "supremesist" attitude.

i went to DoD schools as a child, so i grew up around a mix of people. i had never even seen anything remotely racist until i came back to America when i was 8 or 9 years old.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:40:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?



Teehee.
Randy Weaver cut the bbls down, but they were not below the 18 inches.
What was under the legal limit was the shotguns over all length.
Anyone care to guess just how far under the legal limit the guns OAL was?



Less than a quarter of an inch, right?



I think that is correct. He made some dumb choices that brought the law to his door, but there is not one damn excuse for a sniper to have shot with a woman and child in the line of fire.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:45:57 PM EDT
Randy Weaver was originally allegedly entrapped by the ATF after his refusal to act as an undercover informant for the ATF and infiltrate the Aryan Nation.

Weaver was a separatist and was a Christian Identity coreligionist, but not a member of the Aryan Nation.

Previous ATF undercover infiltrations had resulted in the death of the infiltrators.

The ATF entrapped Weaver (through another undercover informant - Kenneth Fadley - who asked Weaver to shorten a shotgun barrel - after the informant turned it into to the ATF it was subsequently measured at slightly less than 18 inches but Weaver denies he cut it at that length). The ATF then offered Weaver a pass on the NFA violation if he would infiltrate the Aryan Nation. When he refused, the ATF made it clear that they would do what ever it took to get him convicted - using his love of his children as they threatened to have the State take his children, etc.

The stand-off began when the Federal court was manipulated. Weaver's hearing date was changed, from 19 Feb 1991 to 20 Feb 1991, but the probation officer (Federal Pretrial Service) sent him a letter with the date as 20 March 1991.

The US Marshals Special Operations Group was initially involved, but the FBI "Hostage Rescue Team" (HRT) was controlling the operation when FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, following what were later determined to be illegal rules of engagement engaged Ron Harris using the "mil dot lead" technique of engaging a moving target (this is a military technique). Horiuchi failed to observe that Vicki Weaver, holding her child, was standing at his lead point. All involved Federal personnel recognized Vicki was the key person in the family's resistance - but, to say that Horiuchi deliberately shot her to weaken Randy Weaver's resolve is pure speculation.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:48:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.




Disclaimer:
I hope horiuchi rots in hell for what he did to Vicki Weaver.

And horiuchi was an fbi sniper.


They have willfully committed murder to hundreds of men, women and children. From "accidental" shootings, to mysterious "suicides", to shooting an unarmed Mother in the head (while she HELD HER BABY!), up to burning to death over 80 US citizens at Waco, Texas.


The fact is she was armed , she was not holding a gun but if I remember right she had a .38 snubby on her hip and her baby in her arms.


Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:49:33 PM EDT
As I said before I think his choices were his own and he provided an excuse for the gov. to come down on him. It is irrelevant that he was doing it because he "needed" the money. He knowingly committed a crime and then put his family in harms way.

Needless to say that the gov agents acted irresponsibly is an understatement. They will have to live with it and be judged later on. I know that even "if" I needed the money I would not do something that would put my wife and children in harms way.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:53:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Randy Weaver was originally allegedly entrapped by the ATF after his refusal to act as an undercover informant for the ATF and infiltrate the Aryan Nation.

Weaver was a separatist and was a Christian Identity coreligionist, but not a member of the Aryan Nation.

Previous ATF undercover infiltrations had resulted in the death of the infiltrators.

The ATF entrapped Weaver (through another undercover informant - Kenneth Fadley - who asked Weaver to shorten a shotgun barrel - after the informant turned it into to the ATF it was subsequently measured at slightly less than 18 inches but Weaver denies he cut it at that length). The ATF then offered Weaver a pass on the NFA violation if he would infiltrate the Aryan Nation. When he refused, the ATF made it clear that they would do what ever it took to get him convicted - using his love of his children as they threatened to have the State take his children, etc.

The stand-off began when the Federal court was manipulated. Weaver's hearing date was changed, from 19 Feb 1991 to 20 Feb 1991, but the probation officer (Federal Pretrial Service) sent him a letter with the date as 20 March 1991.

The US Marshals Special Operations Group was initially involved, but the FBI "Hostage Rescue Team" (HRT) was controlling the operation when FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, following what were later determined to be illegal rules of engagement engaged Ron Harris using the "mil dot lead" technique of engaging a moving target (this is a military technique). Horiuchi failed to observe that Vicki Weaver, holding her child, was standing at his lead point. All involved Federal personnel recognized Vicki was the key person in the family's resistance - but, to say that Horiuchi deliberately shot her to weaken Randy Weaver's resolve is pure speculation.



He'll be judged in due course. Better to burn in hell then spend a lifetime taking it in the ass from the brothers in cell block six, I guess. Fuck you agent Horiuchi.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:53:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 4:58:32 PM EDT by jrzy]

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?




It wasn't even the barrels he was accused of shortening, it was the stocks which made the whole shot gun under legal length.
I believe.


PS
He didn't do it because he was acquitted.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:55:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?






Well, I am glad that some here actually think. Is that the best you can do? I think we can all tell your intellect from your post.




Read his book. He needed the money and he says he regrets doing it.



+1 I got a signed copy of the book FROM him at a gun show...shows the OTHER side of the story.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:58:27 PM EDT
tag for later
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:02:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?






Well, I am glad that some here actually think. Is that the best you can do? I think we can all tell your intellect from your post.




Read his book. He needed the money and he says he regrets doing it.



+1 I got a signed copy of the book FROM him at a gun show...shows the OTHER side of the story.






Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:03:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge.


Stupid.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:05:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Randy Weaver was originally allegedly entrapped by the ATF after his refusal to act as an undercover informant for the ATF and infiltrate the Aryan Nation.

Weaver was a separatist and was a Christian Identity coreligionist, but not a member of the Aryan Nation.

Previous ATF undercover infiltrations had resulted in the death of the infiltrators.

The ATF entrapped Weaver (through another undercover informant - Kenneth Fadley - who asked Weaver to shorten a shotgun barrel - after the informant turned it into to the ATF it was subsequently measured at slightly less than 18 inches but Weaver denies he cut it at that length). The ATF then offered Weaver a pass on the NFA violation if he would infiltrate the Aryan Nation. When he refused, the ATF made it clear that they would do what ever it took to get him convicted - using his love of his children as they threatened to have the State take his children, etc.

The stand-off began when the Federal court was manipulated. Weaver's hearing date was changed, from 19 Feb 1991 to 20 Feb 1991, but the probation officer (Federal Pretrial Service) sent him a letter with the date as 20 March 1991.

The US Marshals Special Operations Group was initially involved, but the FBI "Hostage Rescue Team" (HRT) was controlling the operation when FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, following what were later determined to be illegal rules of engagement engaged Ron Harris using the "mil dot lead" technique of engaging a moving target (this is a military technique). Horiuchi failed to observe that Vicki Weaver, holding her child, was standing at his lead point. All involved Federal personnel recognized Vicki was the key person in the family's resistance - but, to say that Horiuchi deliberately shot her to weaken Randy Weaver's resolve is pure speculation.



That pretty much sums it all up.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:15:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.




Disclaimer:
I hope horiuchi rots in hell for what he did to Vicki Weaver.

And horiuchi was an fbi sniper.


They have willfully committed murder to hundreds of men, women and children. From "accidental" shootings, to mysterious "suicides", to shooting an unarmed Mother in the head (while she HELD HER BABY!), up to burning to death over 80 US citizens at Waco, Texas.


The fact is she was armed , she was not holding a gun but if I remember right she had a .38 snubby on her hip and her baby in her arms.





And thats a legitimate reason to shoot someone? We have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to keep and BEAR arms. The ROE that stated ANY armed adult should be shot on sight is BLATANTLY unconstitutional-

Its one thing to brandish in a threatening manner, but she, nor Randy Weaver did

Either way, haruchi was WRONG PERIOD
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:31:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By P08:
As I said before I think his choices were his own and he provided an excuse for the gov. to come down on him. It is irrelevant that he was doing it because he "needed" the money. He knowingly committed a crime and then put his family in harms way.

Needless to say that the gov agents acted irresponsibly is an understatement. They will have to live with it and be judged later on. I know that even "if" I needed the money I would not do something that would put my wife and children in harms way.



While I know what you are saying, "no matter what, commit a "crime" and do the time"...but, sawing down the length of a barrel on a gun is NO reason at all for ANY person to kill another. Or a reason to arrest someone. First of all, barrel length laws are UNCONSITUTIONAL! Second, Randy never committied any other crime. So past precedent has something to say about this. The feds should have tried other strategies before resulting to what happened. Third, the government at that time was VERY tryannical and this sad episode is proof of that. Reno should be in jail. Potts should be in jail and Lon should be in jail.

This whole thing was a mess and Waco/Ruby Ridge opened my eyes to what a goverment can really do if not kept in check. People are people and some people, no matter where they are, are very, very bad people. I'd like to see Lon's face when he has to confront God over this matter and realizes what he did. That will be a sight to see.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:34:35 PM EDT
Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership ATF campaign

GIVE THE BATFE THE BOOT!

wonder if this has a slim chance?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:39:06 PM EDT

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.


two pages and no dog comment?


I dont trust the BATFE either. They are TAX agents.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:05:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By jrzy:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I thought is was an FBI sniper that shot Randy Weaver's wife.




Disclaimer:
I hope horiuchi rots in hell for what he did to Vicki Weaver.

And horiuchi was an fbi sniper.


They have willfully committed murder to hundreds of men, women and children. From "accidental" shootings, to mysterious "suicides", to shooting an unarmed Mother in the head (while she HELD HER BABY!), up to burning to death over 80 US citizens at Waco, Texas.


The fact is she was armed , she was not holding a gun but if I remember right she had a .38 snubby on her hip and her baby in her arms.





And thats a legitimate reason to shoot someone? We have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to keep and BEAR arms. The ROE that stated ANY armed adult should be shot on sight is BLATANTLY unconstitutional-

Its one thing to brandish in a threatening manner, but she, nor Randy Weaver did

Either way, haruchi was WRONG PERIOD



I agree with you 100 percent.
I was just correcting the site that said she was not armed.
There is no reason that scum bag sniper should not be in jail right now.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 7:24:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hylton:
I admire individuals such as Weaver, a true American.



+1
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 8:24:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By P08:

Originally Posted By Hylton:

Originally Posted By P08:
Not defending any of the alphabit agencies, but what the hell possessed Randy Weaver to cut those barrels off in the first place! Seems to me that had he not done that things may have turned out differently?



hr


Well, I am glad that some here actually think.hat



Read his book. He needed the money and he says he regrets doing it.



what is the cost of a hacksaw in the average hardware, store?

why would anyone believe that someone who pays them to cut down shotgun barrels is anything other than a fed looking for a bust?

weaver was a stupid man.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 7:11:14 AM EDT
thread about watching the hearing with webcast

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=82950
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 8:35:02 PM EDT
ATF Has its own set of rules.
Top Top