Why a .45 Matters - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why a .45 Matters (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/14/2006 6:44:23 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
We should trade it those 5.56 uppers for .45 uppers then, cause I've heard of Haji taking 5.56 and keepin on keepin on.
Course, I've heard 7.62x39mm doesnt put people down RIGHT NOW either, do they make an AK-47 in .45?? And I've heard of instances when .308 and even .50 bmg doesnt put tyhem down RIGHT NOW, so we should replace our .50's with .45 pistols too. Extend the barrel of course though.

Ok, if the 5.56 doesn't stop them, then how about a .45-70?

That is part of problem with the whole 45 debate, most gun people only know part of the story when it comes to the Morro Uprising. We all know the part about the 38 being insufficient, however the rest of the story was the 45 colts, 30-40s, 45-70s and 12 gage shotguns also proved to be ineffective on Jihadist on narcotics. So the natural solution was to field a 45 that had the same performance as the 45 revolvers that were not proving to be effective. Oh, by the way since the weapon was fielded at the end of the uprising that started almost 10 years prior to 1911, there is no indication that it actually did any better.

Posted: 2/14/2006 6:48:36 AM EDT

[#2]

How many pages is this gonna run?
My dog has fleas.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:01:24 AM EDT

[#3]

I was watching that Discovery Times show on the South African Police Special Task Force, and they used 9mm pistols and 9mm MP5's (along with FALs when the situation arose).

They showed some combat footage where gunfire was involved including an attempted money-truck ambush, a resteraunt robbery, and storming a hotel room to free a hostage. In the latter two, they were using 9mm pistols/rifles which caused several fatalities against the criminals.

The program said that they respond to something like 750 crimes a year that can't be handled by the normal South African police force - and they specialize in hostage rescue. They also haven't lost a single hostage in the 20-year history of the Special Task Force.

That being the case, I would say that they know how to effectively employ the 9mm.

That said, I own and enjoy shooting both.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:11:21 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
If we'd just stop issueing crap magazines and stop pretending we signed onto a a poorly thought out treaty so we cold start issuing JHP rounds I think a lot of problems would disappear.

+2

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:12:08 AM EDT

[#5]

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:14:07 AM EDT

[#6]

The magazine issue has pretty much been fixed. Almost a year ago there was a message and a way to get free replacement magazines, but the system only works if your armorer and command made the effort to make it work.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:16:14 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
If we'd just stop issueing crap magazines and stop pretending we signed onto a a poorly thought out treaty so we cold start issuing JHP rounds I think a lot of problems would disappear.

As far as I know the Hague convention (Not the Geneva convention)is not binding in the use of soft point or hollow point munitions.
It is a voluntary restraint.

It's silly because land mines are far mor heinous and they are still in the inventory.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:17:29 AM EDT

[#8]

" This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. "

This is utter bullshit and Mythbusters PROVED it. unless the body has a steel plate to COMPLETELY TRANSFER the momentum of the bullet to the target, no bullet will "knock down" shit.

Fucking bunch of 'tards...

repeating bullshit handed down through generations of people who spoke out thier asses.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:28:11 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

That said, I own and enjoy shooting both.

Me too.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:28:59 AM EDT

[#10]

I was at the Local Gun store and a fellow patron said his cousin is in the Seal 6 Team and uses a .45ACP and a .50BMG sniper rifle. Says it's the only way to be sure.

I usuallly always bump into someone at the local gun store who is a Navy Seal or knows a Navy Seal. But what the fuck? How come nobody is from DELTA? Or a Ranger? Why does the Navy get all the movies and stuff?

I'm going to go watch Blackhawk Down now.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:35:13 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
One box stock Ruger .22LR is all anyone would need in combat.

Anything else would be a over kill.

_________________________

img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/Colt_SBR/57985sm.gif

It's True! YOU CAN CARRY MORE AMMO WITH 22 LR. MOST COMBAT RANGES ARE CLOSE RANGE!
Besides the Smaller Caliber would provide an incentive for shot placement,

The Low Recoil would mean Greater Accuracy (Less Flinching), and Faster Follow up Shots!
Not to mention that our TROOPS COULD CARRY MORE AMMO!!!!
(And its is Cheaper on the Tax Payer!)

223 is OVER KILL

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:36:59 AM EDT

[#12]

I'd get all giddy inside if I saw a bunch of US soldiers/marines in modern day Iraq swarming an urban complex with a bunch of WWII Thompson SMG.

Anyone else?

I have always believed the .45ACP was a better combat handgun cartridge than the 9mm Luger. Notice I said "HANDGUN". But, in a SMG, I think the lines are less clearer. But I'd still go with 45 ACP if given the chance, especially if ball ammo was all I had to use.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:37:34 AM EDT

[#13]

I like pie.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:41:29 AM EDT

[#14]

Well I personnaly saw a guy take six COM shots and continued to fight before he went down.
Oh wait, that was shots of Jack Daniel. Sorry.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:51:37 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
I'd get all giddy inside if I saw a bunch of US soldiers/marines in modern day Iraq swarming an urban complex with a bunch of WWII Thompson SMG.

Anyone else?

I have always believed the .45ACP was a better combat handgun cartridge than the 9mm Luger. Notice I said "HANDGUN". But, in a SMG, I think the lines are less clearer. But I'd still go with 45 ACP if given the chance, especially if ball ammo was all I had to use.

What does a loaded Thompson weigh, 11 pounds? Without the necessary gadgets? Witha 50m range? Sorry bro, the Thompson and all other submachineguns are pretty much obsolete for frontline military service.

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:56:09 AM EDT

[#16]

Posted: 2/14/2006 7:59:35 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
from:www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200621205311.asp

Why .45 Matters
by James Dunnigan
February 12, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models? It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (actually .357, or 9.07mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.

The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.

Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.

The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911

Letting troops bring their own sidearm? 10mm?

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

Posted: 2/14/2006 8:05:40 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
from:www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200621205311.asp

Why .45 Matters
by James Dunnigan
February 12, 2006
Discussion Board on this DLS topic

Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models? It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (actually .357, or 9.07mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.

The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.

Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.

The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.

The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911

Letting troops bring their own sidearm? 10mm?

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

It's all I got.

I am sure that there are plenty of inaccuracies within the article, however such inaccuracies shouldn't detract one from an important point which is whether or not it is preferable to create a larger wound channel (using a 45) over a smaller one (using a 9mm) with a handgun.

Since handguns are fired when the situation is close and personal ...I would argue that the larger wound channel is preferable because it increases the probability of dropping an enemy combatant faster.

This isn't to ignore the issues of Shot placement (you can have bad shot placement with 9mm as well) or the fact that some people are just so amped on some drug or something that anything short of a shot to their Brain isn't going to stop them immediately.

Posted: 2/14/2006 8:07:17 AM EDT

[#19]

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

From what I understand troopies can bring along personal weapons as
long as the CO signs off.

The problem is bringing them back, supposedly.

Posted: 2/14/2006 10:08:43 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Well I personnaly saw a guy take six COM shots and continued to fight before he went down.
Oh wait, that was shots of Jack Daniel. Sorry.

teetotaller!

Posted: 2/14/2006 10:10:27 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

From what I understand troopies can bring along personal weapons as
long as the CO signs off.

The problem is bringing them back, supposedly.

CENTCOM regs says no personal weapons.

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:06:23 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

From what I understand troopies can bring along personal weapons as
long as the CO signs off.

The problem is bringing them back, supposedly.

CENTCOM regs says no personal weapons.

and yet there is ample photographic evidence, as well as anecdotal, that it is tolerated to an extent.

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:10:53 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

From what I understand troopies can bring along personal weapons as
long as the CO signs off.

The problem is bringing them back, supposedly.

CENTCOM regs says no personal weapons.

and yet there is ample photographic evidence, as well as anecdotal, that it is tolerated to an extent.

I think there was more tolerance than there has been recently. As I understand it, about a year and a half ago they started cracking the whip.

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:13:17 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
.500 S&W Magnum- accept no substitutes

475 Linebaugh?

Nope, the 500 kicks it ass.

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:21:17 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Sounds like BS. Anybody got more info?

From what I understand troopies can bring along personal weapons as
long as the CO signs off.

The problem is bringing them back, supposedly.

CENTCOM regs says no personal weapons.

and yet there is ample photographic evidence, as well as anecdotal, that it is tolerated to an extent.

Actually what I have seen on it were quite a few guys getting weapons from the ISF, there have Glocks and a few other items.

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:25:19 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Actually what I have seen on it were quite a few guys getting weapons from the ISF, there have Glocks and a few other items.

Why doesn't the idea that you could get a weapon from the Iraqi Security Forces surprise me? What's a Glock go for, a couple cartons of cigarettes?

Posted: 2/14/2006 12:39:44 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
.500 S&W Magnum- accept no substitutes

475 Linebaugh?

Nope, the 500 kicks it ass.

Hmmmmm

HEAVYWEIGHT FACTORY LOAD COMPARISON
CALIBER -----------------LOAD ------------------------MV (fps)----------ME (ft. lbs.)
.500 S&W ----------------440-gr. --Hardcast -----------1,625 -------------2,580
.500 S&W ----------------400-gr. --Hawk SP ------------1,675 -------------2,500
500 S&W -----------------275-gr. --Barnes X -----------1,665 -------------1,688
.500 Linebaugh -----------440-gr. --Buffalo Bore WFN --1,300--------------1,650
.50 AE --------------------325-gr. --Speer GD ----------1,400-------------1,414
.480 Ruger ---------------325-gr. --Hornady JHP --------1,350-------------1,315
475 Linebaugh -----------400-gr. JFN -------------------1,400 -------------1,740
.454 Casull --------------300-gr. --Hornady JXTP -------1,650-------------1,831
.445 SuperMag .----------300-gr. --Hornady XTP --------1,501 -------------1,652

....Yep!

Elmer Keith would be in 7th Heaven if he were around today

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why a .45 Matters (Page 2 of 2)

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