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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:51:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:39:52 PM EDT by aaronstaple]
It seems like every time someone's talking about an accidental discharge*1, someone says, "No, thats not an AD, its a negligent discharge*2, because [insert completely obvious and reasonable reason here]." I remember from the 'Glock Fotey' DEA video, the guy says he had an AD, not an ND, even though the general consensus was that it was an ND.

So, when is an AD not an ND? When does an 'accident' become 'negligence'?

What are some examples of a non-ND AD?

Care to share any interesting stories or anecdotes about your non-ND ADs?

All threads are worthless without pics:


*1. Somehow this term seems inappropriate for family-friendly conversion.
*2. This one is worse.

ETA: I just saw this posted: Dick Cheney shoots hunting parter by accident... www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=436427 It looks like I may not be the VPC poster child after all....
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:52:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 6:53:33 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
so uh what member is that ?
IMO the only AD is a mechanical failure of the firearm like a slam fire
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:53:09 PM EDT
I am absolutely speechless after seeing that picture.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 6:57:55 PM EDT by twonami]
too bad it didn't go off. What a fucking idiot
Waiting for the "it wasn't loaded, calm down" remark
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:57:37 PM EDT
AD is when it's the gun's fault. Mechanical failure of some kind. Like when some Rem 700s went off when you operated the safety. Stuff like that. A buddy of my dad's had an AD when he slipped, fell, slammed the butt of his rifle against a rock, and despite the safety being on and his finger nowhere near the trigger the rifle discharged. Happily he still had control over the muzzle and the bullet hit nothing important. I don't think he used that rifle again.

Now, an AD like that can become an ND if you didn't follow the other safety rules. If your gun fails, and you stupidly had it pointed at something you didn't want to shoot, then it goes back to being an ND, imo.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:57:37 PM EDT
AD is when the firearm has mechanical failure of some part that causes it to malfunction and fire when not intended to.

ND is when some poor dumbass pulls the trigger and gets a BANG instead of a click.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:58:58 PM EDT
AD no finger on trigger
ND finger on trigger
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:01:38 PM EDT
What is with those bite marks on your neck? Zombie get ya?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:04:19 PM EDT


Shooting the idiot in that picture would be neither an AD nor an ND; it would be a public service.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:06:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 7:10:01 PM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]
I agree. An AD is when no one did anything to the gun that should have made it fire. Malfunctions and such. If someone dropped a gun and it went off when it hit the ground, I think I'd also call than an AD, even though the guy was a butterfingers. Any modern firearm shouldn't go off from a drop. Dropping it and trying to catch it, however, is just asking for it. You snag it by the triggerguard, and boom she goes.

I can only hope the guy in that pic removed the entire bolt assembly and stuck a chamber brush or a snapcap up the barrel before doing that little stunt.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:13:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 7:15:25 PM EDT by JarheadPatriot]
now , it's confirmed......there REALLY are idiots on AR15.com.............joke or no joke....loaded or not......safety or no safety........that pic is disturbing
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:17:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:
I am absolutely speechless after seeing that picture.



+1
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:17:59 PM EDT
AD-Unintentional discharge due to factors reasonably beyond the user's control.
ND-Unintentional discharge due to factors the user could and should have mitigated.

I would propose another category for folks like those pictured: SFRSH, or Some Fucking Retard Shot Himself.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:22:14 PM EDT
An AD that is not a ND would be a malfunction of the gun in which you did everything in your power to prevent it from happening, but it still happened. Like the firing pin getting stuck or something like that
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:23:37 PM EDT
glad you guys liked the pic. my new years resolution was to never start a new thread without a pic, and i didnt have any pics that everyone hadn't already seen, or was really gross.

i didnt think to remove the bolt carrier, but i did clear the gun about five thousand times, and de-cock it, before the shot. next time ill remove the bc...

i didnt notice until now how much my birthmark (or so my parents told me.. hm...) looks like a zombie bite...

and no i dont drink. if i did drink, i think i would make a rule to never handle firearms while drinking, because i am a fool, and could easily see myself doing something like this for real. i see a few people on these boards that have posted about having nd's while under the influence. and even then, its a dodgy situation.. what happens when you think someone's trying to break into your house while you're drunk? (think the Christmas Eve scene in Jarhead)
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:28:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By METT-T:
AD-Unintentional discharge due to factors reasonably beyond the user's control.
ND-Unintentional discharge due to factors the user could and should have mitigated.

I would propose another category for folks like those pictured: SFRSH, or Some Fucking Retard Shot Himself.



+1, perfectly stated.

I would like to hear more AD stories, they scare me and help me understand more about the possibilities. As mentioned in another thread people reported seeing 1911's go full auto at the range, I'm not sure how I would handle that.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:28:43 PM EDT
I had a muzzle loader with a clogged barrel. After putting numerous caps on it and pulling the trigger it finaly cleared the object from the barrel. It was a load left from about 12 years ago. The bullet went into the ground because that's where it was supposed to be pointing for just such a situation as this. ND, AD? I say dumbass.

In my own defense it was the proper way to remove an unused load when there is no ball puller available.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:32:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By METT-T:
AD-Unintentional discharge due to factors reasonably beyond the user's control.
ND-Unintentional discharge due to factors the user could and should have mitigated.

I would propose another category for folks like those pictured: SFRSH, or Some Fucking Retard Shot Himself.



I second that vote!
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:40:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
AD no finger on trigger<------------I'd have to say no!
ND finger on trigger

The thread posted a couple days back about the cop who's Glock discharged uopn holstering because his drawstring of his jacket got caught in the trigger guard while shoving it in. I call that an ND because he should not have been wearing something that would interfere with the safe and proper use of his firearm, and if he was holstering with his finger along the frame or trigger guard, he would most likely have felt the obstruction and stopped the reholstering movement.YMMV
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:41:02 PM EDT
I am going to agree with the crowd here:

An AD is when the firearm malfunctions in such a manner as to discharge a shot that was not expected, planned or otherwise manipulated to do so.

Having your finger on the trigger when depressing the safety and discharging is an ND.

Failing to maintain your firearm as to cause (intended or otherwise) a slamfire is, IMHO, an ND.

Modifying your firearm to defeat all passive safety devices is an ND, if a discharge could have been reasonably prevented by any of the defeated safety devices.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:49:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GUNGUY1911:

Originally Posted By twonami:
AD no finger on trigger<------------I'd have to say no!
ND finger on trigger

The thread posted a couple days back about the cop who's Glock discharged uopn holstering because his drawstring of his jacket got caught in the trigger guard while shoving it in. I call that an ND because he should not have been wearing something that would interfere with the safe and proper use of his firearm, and if he was holstering with his finger along the frame or trigger guard, he would most likely have felt the obstruction and stopped the reholstering movement.YMMV


you got me there
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aaronstaple:
glad you guys liked the pic. my new years resolution was to never start a new thread without a pic, and i didnt have any pics that everyone hadn't already seen, or was really gross.

i didnt think to remove the bolt carrier, but i did clear the gun about five thousand times, and de-cock it, before the shot. next time ill remove the bc...

i didnt notice until now how much my birthmark (or so my parents told me.. hm...) looks like a zombie bite...

and no i dont drink. if i did drink, i think i would make a rule to never handle firearms while drinking, because i am a fool, and could easily see myself doing something like this for real. i see a few people on these boards that have posted about having nd's while under the influence. and even then, its a dodgy situation.. what happens when you think someone's trying to break into your house while you're drunk? (think the Christmas Eve scene in Jarhead)
img.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/050809/17120__jarhead_l.jpg



Since you admit that the pic is real, all I have to say is that you are a complete idiot.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 7:56:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:04:00 PM EDT
I dunno, I think the pic is funny, but then again, it's not a gun pointed at my head.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:05:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txinvestigator:
Since you admit that the pic is real, all I have to say is that you are a complete idiot.



I will have to agree. Granted for the sake of argument that you have taken all the precautions to ensure your gun is not loaded when you did that stunt. To document it and show it to others is the height of irresponsibility. What if a child, family member or not, decides to imitate your stunt?

Sorry, but i think that that is just bad judgement on your part.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:29:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
Sorry, but i think that that is just bad judgement on your part.



And what would you have said if I had posted a scene from any of a dozen movies that depicted basically the same thing? You know, I bet I see a lifelike representation of a gun pointed at a person almost every day, whether it be in a photo, or a movie, or a video game, or on the Internet. Do you have kids? Will you let them see any of these movies, or play any of these games?

Perhaps you are disturbed by the lifelike representation, or the in-your-face portrayal of recklessness, drunkenness, and sheer cluelessness. I agree with you; this stuff is the crap, which is why I spent 15 minutes doing this shot.

I felt from the beginning that people would dub this as being incredibly irresponsible and immature and who knows what else, although I'm not sure why. I guess people are just somehow offended when they see a real gun pointed at a real person, something most of us have been trained since childhood to know as wrong.

But what bothers me is that stuff like this happens every day on the range, albiet less blatently, and noone says anything. Maybe theres some old cajun who's obviously had a bit to drink in the cold morning as he zeros for his deer hunt. Or its the distracted guy two stalls down who keeps sweeping the line with his muzzle. Or the guy thats playing with his gun while everyone else is downrange. Or the guy thats teaching his kid to shoot the 22, but not teaching him the 4 rules or 10 commandments.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:44:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aaronstaple:

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
Sorry, but i think that that is just bad judgement on your part.



And what would you have said if I had posted a scene from any of a dozen movies that depicted basically the same thing? You know, I bet I see a lifelike representation of a gun pointed at a person almost every day, whether it be in a photo, or a movie, or a video game, or on the Internet. Do you have kids? Will you let them see any of these movies, or play any of these games?

Perhaps you are disturbed by the lifelike representation, or the in-your-face portrayal of recklessness, drunkenness, and sheer cluelessness. I agree with you; this stuff is the crap, which is why I spent 15 minutes doing this shot.

I felt from the beginning that people would dub this as being incredibly irresponsible and immature and who knows what else, although I'm not sure why. I guess people are just somehow offended when they see a real gun pointed at a real person, something most of us have been trained since childhood to know as wrong.

But what bothers me is that stuff like this happens every day on the range, albiet less blatently, and noone says anything. Maybe theres some old cajun who's obviously had a bit to drink in the cold morning as he zeros for his deer hunt. Or its the distracted guy two stalls down who keeps sweeping the line with his muzzle. Or the guy thats playing with his gun while everyone else is downrange. Or the guy thats teaching his kid to shoot the 22, but not teaching him the 4 rules or 10 commandments.



I think that I will just have to agree to disagree with you on this point. It is not my intention to impose my opinions on you via a protracted arguement.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:01:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aaronstaple:

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
Sorry, but i think that that is just bad judgement on your part.



And what would you have said if I had posted a scene from any of a dozen movies that depicted basically the same thing? You know, I bet I see a lifelike representation of a gun pointed at a person almost every day, whether it be in a photo, or a movie, or a video game, or on the Internet. Do you have kids? Will you let them see any of these movies, or play any of these games?

Perhaps you are disturbed by the lifelike representation, or the in-your-face portrayal of recklessness, drunkenness, and sheer cluelessness. I agree with you; this stuff is the crap, which is why I spent 15 minutes doing this shot.

I felt from the beginning that people would dub this as being incredibly irresponsible and immature and who knows what else, although I'm not sure why. I guess people are just somehow offended when they see a real gun pointed at a real person, something most of us have been trained since childhood to know as wrong.

But what bothers me is that stuff like this happens every day on the range, albiet less blatently, and noone says anything. Maybe theres some old cajun who's obviously had a bit to drink in the cold morning as he zeros for his deer hunt. Or its the distracted guy two stalls down who keeps sweeping the line with his muzzle. Or the guy thats playing with his gun while everyone else is downrange. Or the guy thats teaching his kid to shoot the 22, but not teaching him the 4 rules or 10 commandments.



Oh, OK, so you staged that picture as a reasoned conscious effort to make a statement about range safety. It's your art, if you will.



You made that pic for shits and giggles.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:40:32 PM EDT
If you want to go strictly from the linguistic view, an accidental discharge is when you did not intend for the gun to discharge. A negligent discharge is when the gun discharges and you neglected to take proper safety precautions. Accidental implies lack of intent while negligence only implies lack of care for gun safety rules.

Example #1: AD, not ND

The gun design is flawed and this flaw is unknown or cannot be anticipated when all reasonable precautions are taken. For example, an SKS slam-fire where all gun safety rules are observed and the rounds go into the backstop.

Example #2: ND, not AD

A drunken redneck intentionally firing his weapon in his apartment complex to make loud noises, with no regard for the consequences to life or property.

Example #3: AD, ND

The photo in the original post. If the gun were loaded, was either mechanically unsound or the idiot's finger slipped, and the idiot shot himself, the outcome would be accidental and negligent.

Example #4: Neither

Appropriate use of a gun, to kill a deer, put a hole in a paper target, or shoot a home invader in some states.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:42:37 PM EDT
It's an ND when you or I do it.

It's an AD when the Vice President does it.


Steve
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:47:25 PM EDT
Comparing your pic to something that happens on a screen is a little inappropriate. Very different scenarios. While I have not handled firearms for a movie set and I haven't seen it done, I have friends in the movie biz that have run it down for me.

There is someone on site whose job it is to maintain and handle all fake/real firearms on a set. There are extensive checks and balances, and the guns are monitored as though they could kill somebody. Which they can, and unfortunately sometimes, do. Bruce Lee's kid was killed on the set of The Crow with some kind of faulty observance of the rules. Extremely unfortunate.

OTOH, you were waving a bottle of vodka around and aiming a rifle at your own head. I dunno, the First Amendment covers you, you should have the right to do what you did and to publish the pic. I don't think that makes it particularly smart to do so.

If I were an employer, and somebody emailed that pic to me, I would find a nonrelated reason to fire you.


Just sayin'.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:41:20 PM EDT
I have replaced the SFRSH picture with something closer to an ND. Hopefullyit is a little less likely to come back to haunt me when I run for president!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 12:05:36 AM EDT
FWIW I don't think the Cheney thing was an ND or AD. He intentionally shot at the bird. Apparently he was unaware that the guy was out there and he got some of it. There was nothing unintentional or unexpected about the discharge itself. You can make the argument that Cheney was unsure what was behind and below his target, but I dont think you can call it either ND or AD.

But that hinges on my interpretation which is that ND and AD are both unexpected discharges of a weapon.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:55:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big_Louie:
If you want to go strictly from the linguistic view, an accidental discharge is when you did not intend for the gun to discharge. A negligent discharge is when the gun discharges and you neglected to take proper safety precautions. Accidental implies lack of intent while negligence only implies lack of care for gun safety rules.

Example #2: ND, not AD

A drunken redneck intentionally firing his weapon in his apartment complex to make loud noises, with no regard for the consequences to life or property.




While this is negligent in the sense of criminally negligent, it's not what is generally meant when we way an ND. This example some moron intentially dischargin his firearm. Shooting on purpose. An ND is unintentional. "I didn't know the gun was loaded." or when somebody is holstering their pistol and they have their finger on the trigger and that finger gets pushed by the hoslter and they shoot thmselves in the leg, or somebody walking with their finger on the trigger and they trip and their hand tightens up and a round goes off.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 8:03:14 AM EDT
Three years ago, my buddy loaded his SKS as he prepared to start a stalk during deers season. He pulled the bolt back and let go. The rifle discharged into the air. That AD scared the shit out of me.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:16:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By llanero:
Three years ago, my buddy loaded his SKS as he prepared to start a stalk during deers season. He pulled the bolt back and let go. The rifle discharged into the air. That AD scared the shit out of me.



Slam fire?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:36:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aaronstaple:

Originally Posted By llanero:
Three years ago, my buddy loaded his SKS as he prepared to start a stalk during deer season. He pulled the bolt back and let go. The rifle discharged into the air. That AD scared the shit out of me.



Slam fire?



Yup. We never did figure out if it was because of a crappy trigger group or just plain ol' (inertia)+(free float firing pin)+(thin-walled civilian primer)=BOOM.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 11:18:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:
AD is when it's the gun's fault. Mechanical failure of some kind. Like when some Rem 700s went off when you operated the safety. Stuff like that. A buddy of my dad's had an AD when he slipped, fell, slammed the butt of his rifle against a rock, and despite the safety being on and his finger nowhere near the trigger the rifle discharged. Happily he still had control over the muzzle and the bullet hit nothing important. I don't think he used that rifle again.

Now, an AD like that can become an ND if you didn't follow the other safety rules. If your gun fails, and you stupidly had it pointed at something you didn't want to shoot, then it goes back to being an ND, imo.



Nailed it!

If you slip and fall on some ice and the gun fires becuase your finger was on the trigger its a ND.

If you slip and fall on some ice and the impact with the ground cases the FP to more forward from inertia and the gun fires its a AD.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 11:59:30 PM EDT
Question: What if you have the gun pointed downrange, you have it sited at a target and you begin to pull back on the trigger, and don't mean to pull it back all the way, but a round goes off. How about the same, but you thought you had the safety on, and the only reason you dind't want to fire was because you were testing the site picture as your finger pulled?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:08:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Opesus:
Question: What if you have the gun pointed downrange, you have it sited at a target and you begin to pull back on the trigger, and don't mean to pull it back all the way, but a round goes off. How about the same, but you thought you had the safety on, and the only reason you dind't want to fire was because you were testing the site picture as your finger pulled?



I've always understood both an AD and an ND to be a "bad thing." Assuming you're following the ordinary safety rules, if you're aiming and your finger is on the trigger, you have already decided its OK to blast whatever you are aiming at. So I'd say these cases would be neither AD nor ND, because they aren't "bad." Unexpected, perhaps, but not likely to be a problem.

Of course, by "downrange," I'm assuming you're talking about a range or some other "safe" environment. If we're talking about a self-defense, police, or military situation, well, I don't know. But I'd expect ND.

For example, theres a widely circulated video of a female police officer accidentally shooting at a man being taken into custody, presumably due to the pressure and stress of the situation. This is an ND, because she shouldn't have had her finger on the trigger, since clearly the need to fire was not imminent.

In the case of expecting the safety to be on, this makes no difference. The rule is that you do not place your finger on the trigger until you are expecting to fire. In rare cases when you are doing something unusual and are not following the usual rules (such as posing with an AR in your mouth), it is expected you check, double-check, and triple-check everything relevent and use utmost care to absolutely prevent accidents. So, in these "weird" cases, if you aren't careful enough, and discharge unintentionally, this is an ND.

Just my opinion, of course. I'm not sure how helpful it is, from a pragmatic standpoint, of distinguishing between ADs and NDs. It isn't a clear enough distinction to separate technical failures from non-technical, because even NDs can occasionally be technical failures. I get the feeling that ND is more about assigning blame than anything else--perhaps as a point of policy.
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