But I think that people who have no ascertainable civilization - at least no civilization which establishes peace and mutual self-restraint as the norm for human interaction - are savages. I think that people who sever an old man's achilles' tendons, stab him repeatedly, smash his wife's face in with a brick, and kill them both are almost certainly savages.

Severing an old man's achilles' tendons, stabbing him repeatedly, smashing his wife's face in with a brick, and killing them both is hard physical labor, even if they don't resist much. Just flipping the bodies over to stab, crush, and hack the appropriate places is a lot of work. I'd bet you'd grunt while doing it.

I'd bet that a person in South Africa who found himself grunting while engaging in savagery would likely be a registered voter, participating in the governance of that country.

But I could be wrong.

Were not even going there! IM Aimless if you have a problem.