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Posted: 2/9/2006 4:16:36 PM EDT
If this discussion is over the line, please lock and trash this post...



Theoretically, would an electrically assisted crank operated mini-gun be legal?


Theoretically, would something like 360 rounds per full 360 degree crank be legal (One shot per each degree)?

Theoretically, would rigging up an electric motor up to some kind of computerized crank to produce high fire rates be legal as long as each crank was separate and semi-automatic?


If an electric gatling gun such as this does not have any significant resistance while cranking at high speeds, would high fire rates be considered fully automatic?






I do not have ANY plans to attempt anything written in this post...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:18:28 PM EDT
sounds good to me
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:23:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 4:26:32 PM EDT by jcovercash]
Nope it would be illegal. I can't find the post but I remember reading that this type of deviec is considered illegal.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:24:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jcovercash:
Nope it would be illegal.



Why?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:26:18 PM EDT
i think you just re-invented the minigun. it is legal to possess a crank driven gatling. always wanted one of those 22 replicas you see from time to time. but attach a motor to it and that illegal from what i understand. what you are posing seems to be similar. a motor driven gatling...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:27:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:
Nope it would be illegal.



Why?



Like I edited to add, I can't find the information but from my understand IIRC anything that allows the gun to fire more than one bullet without human interaction of multiple trigger pulls is considered a MG. I just can't find it.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:29:21 PM EDT
I thought of something like that years ago (A-Team style).I figured you could hook a crank arm up to one of the "gatling gun" trigger doodads and run it remotely with an electric motor.

I had also thought of using a solenoid with a return spring.

This was probably 15 years ago-I contacted the ATF and they said hooking an electric motor up was a big no-no.Manually operated is O.K.,but nothing electric.

Maybe things have changed,but I'm guessing that its a no-no for us common peasants.

Post a design and we'll see how long it takes before you get a knock? on the door
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:33:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jcovercash:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:
Nope it would be illegal.



Why?



Like I edited to add, I can't find the information but from my understand IIRC anything that allows the gun to fire more than one bullet without human interaction of multiple trigger pulls is considered a MG. I just can't find it.



For the sake of argument:

Wouldn't turning the crank be considered multiple trigger pulls?

Although 1 degree per shot would be very short, one could have pulled the trigger 360 times...


Not being able to have an eletric motor on a gun makes more sense to me...



I would never attempt something like this...

This is a theoretical discussion...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:34:14 PM EDT
Gatling Gun - Originally developed during the American War Between the States (1861-65), this was the worlds first practical machine gun. It consists of several barrels arranged in a circle and rotated into firing position by a hand crank. As each barrel comes into alignment with the feed system, a round is fed into its chamber and fired. Ironically, because it is manually operated, it is not classified by the BATF as a machine gun.

Mini-Gun - These are later variants of the Gatling design, only powered by electric motors. They can fire at extremely high rates (up to 6000 rounds per minute). They are classified as machine guns when chambered for rifle ammunition (such as the G.E. 5.56 mini-gun). Larger cannon models, such as the M-61 Vulcan 20mm, are classified as automatic cannon.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:35:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 4:35:56 PM EDT by jcovercash]

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:
Nope it would be illegal.



Why?



Like I edited to add, I can't find the information but from my understand IIRC anything that allows the gun to fire more than one bullet without human interaction of multiple trigger pulls is considered a MG. I just can't find it.



For the sake of argument:

Wouldn't turning the crank be considered multiple trigger pulls?

Although 1 degree per shot would be very short, one could have pulled the trigger 360 times...


Not being able to have an eletric motor on a gun makes more sense to me...



I would never attempt something like this...

This is a theoretical discussion...



You can do it manually, because you are still manipulating the trigger by hand. So this is why the crank is allowed. (It may be different in some states however.)......But when you put the motor in charge of it is becomes a mini gun.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:36:41 PM EDT
shall not be infringed....it is 100% legal, but probably against "the law"
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:36:50 PM EDT
Illegal/unregistered machine gun.

Simpler example. I own a "crank-fire". You know, one of those cheap, plastic cranks that screw on to the trigger guard of a firearm. It has a cam, which pushes a piece of plastic, which is gun specific. It pushes/cams the plastic in and out 4 times per rotation of the crank. The piece of plastic pushes on the trigger = 4 shots per cycle. Lemme tell ya, you can REALLY SPIT out some rounds from a 10/22!
HOWEVER...
Since this is hand driven, you are constantly moving your hand, i.e. activating the trigger multiple times. When I originally bought this rig, I thought , hey, if I attached a power drill/power screwdriver to it, I could really churn the rounds out! YOU CANNOT DO THIS. A machinegun is defined as (paraphrasing) a firearm which discharges more than one round per activation of the trigger. The moment you turn on the motor (activator/trigger), more than one round would be fired.
MACHINEGUN.

This is an old argument. I wish we could do it.

HKO
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:39:58 PM EDT
Something to do with "Thrusts per squeeze"
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:43:48 PM EDT
Me thinks someone should make an "electronic" AR15 trigger group like the kind they have available for paintball guns.

I've seen little kids just flick thier fingers in those kinds of triggers and it almost seems like full auto.

Ofcourse many of those paintball gun triggers can also be set to 3 round bursts and full auto since you can just adjust them electronically.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:43:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKOVERKILL:
Illegal/unregistered machine gun.

Simpler example. I own a "crank-fire". You know, one of those cheap, plastic cranks that screw on to the trigger guard of a firearm. It has a cam, which pushes a piece of plastic, which is gun specific. It pushes/cams the plastic in and out 4 times per rotation of the crank. The piece of plastic pushes on the trigger = 4 shots per cycle. Lemme tell ya, you can REALLY SPIT out some rounds from a 10/22!
HOWEVER...
Since this is hand driven, you are constantly moving your hand, i.e. activating the trigger multiple times. When I originally bought this rig, I thought , hey, if I attached a power drill/power screwdriver to it, I could really churn the rounds out! YOU CANNOT DO THIS. A machinegun is defined as (paraphrasing) a firearm which discharges more than one round per activation of the trigger. The moment you turn on the motor (activator/trigger), more than one round would be fired.
MACHINEGUN.

This is an old argument. I wish we could do it.

HKO



This explains it correctly. Turning on the motor is activating the trigger.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:44:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jcovercash:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Originally Posted By jcovercash:






For the sake of argument:
Wouldn't turning the crank be considered multiple trigger pulls?




This would be multiple trigger pulls activated by one trigger pull.

HKO
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:46:29 PM EDT
BMF activator
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:46:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OFFascist:
Me thinks someone should make an "electronic" AR15 trigger group like the kind they have available for paintball guns.

I've seen little kids just flick thier fingers in those kinds of triggers and it almost seems like full auto.

Ofcourse many of those paintball gun triggers can also be set to 3 round bursts and full auto since you can just adjust them electronically.




Most of those people are ramping...


They are getting more shots per trigger pull...


You pull the trigger X times per second and you shoot X balls...


I own a DM4 and a FF Impluse and I can tell you those triggers on a real gun would be very dangerous...

I can set my DM4 off by bumping it on the tank(Not bouncing)...


That wouldn't be wise on an AR15...
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudFlapper:
BMF activator



That's it!

BMF Activator

Cheap, but fun. Kinda awkward on a HK91, lemme tell ya... ...BUT VERY IMPRESSIVE!

HKO
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:33:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Theoretically, would an electrically assisted crank operated mini-gun be legal?


Gray area. You would need to describe in more detail what you are doing.



Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Theoretically, would something like 360 rounds per full 360 degree crank be legal (One shot per each degree)?


This is legal even for civilian sales on a 4473.


Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
Theoretically, would rigging up an electric motor up to some kind of computerized crank to produce high fire rates be legal as long as each crank was separate and semi-automatic?


Gray area. You would need to describe in more detail what you are doing.


Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
If an electric gatling gun such as this does not have any significant resistance while cranking at high speeds, would high fire rates be considered fully automatic?


Gray area. You would need to describe in more detail what you are doing.

A few years ago, there were rumors of a Gatling being developed (I believe somewhere in Oregon) which ATF had supposedly ruled was civilian-legal on a 4473, but which used a motor to spin the barrels. The "manual action per shot" was supposedly going to be the crank to feed ammunition into the receiver. However, I never heard more than vague rumors about it, and never saw the firearm or any reports of its actual production. It might be an internet legend, might have been stopped late in the game, or maybe it was all wishful thinking on the part of someone who wanted to mount it on his space shuttle.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 1:38:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By jcovercash:
Nope it would be illegal.



Why?



Because it would be fun.
ATF is anti-fun.
That's the best answer I can come up with.
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