RAYTHEON QUICK KILL...COMING TO A STRYKER NEAR YOU? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RAYTHEON QUICK KILL...COMING TO A STRYKER NEAR YOU? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/8/2006 5:26:51 PM EDT

[#1]

group buy?

Posted: 2/8/2006 5:29:31 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
You will still need dismount troops to clear buildings, man checkpoints, take out RPG teams etc.

Yes, you still need to take out the anti-tank teams, because you will be able to deafeat this system by exhausting its magazine capacity. When the Russians went into Chechnya the first time, the Chechen hunter-killer teams defeated the ERA on the T-72s and T-80s by salvoing up to 40 RPGs at the same tank. What this system does is provide extra protection to the armoured vehicles while the infantry go in and clear the anti-tank teams out.

The main gun clears buildings. The coax and the claymores take care of the dismount teams. 40 RPG's will kill a tank with or without dismounts but with this system and claymore packs you should have enough time to hose em down with 7.62 and the new 120mm AP rounds. Besides, with this new tech you can send the tanks through first to suppress heavy resistance and let the infantry follow behind about 100-200 meters to flush out the stragglers. New technology dictates new tactics.

Don't forgt the 105mm Stryker Mobile Gun System is finally coming on-line too... still waiting to see if it's ready for prime-time though.

Posted: 2/8/2006 6:07:33 PM EDT

[#3]

I think this system would be great on tanks and, if possible, other APC's and even HMMWV's. I'm also wondering if it can kill incoming ATGM's as well as the RPG's.

-K

Posted: 2/9/2006 5:20:12 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I think this system would be great on tanks and, if possible, other APC's and even HMMWV's. I'm also wondering if it can kill incoming ATGM's as well as the RPG's.

-K

I would think that it could kill existing ATGM's.

The question is how will it handle a future generation ATGM. You can bet that ATGM designers will be thinking about this.

Posted: 2/9/2006 5:47:58 AM EDT

[#5]

Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

Posted: 2/9/2006 5:56:22 AM EDT

[#6]

tag

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:05:22 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
If this weapon is perfected you will not need dismounted troops. Think about it. The only reason for dismounts around armor is to keep anti-tank teams off the tanks. If you fit some sensors and some type of replaceable claymore strips to the side of the vehicle it should be damn near invulnerable to infantry attack!

Right! I forgot, this is just like not needing a gun on fighters anymore.

Be careful expecting this (or anything) to instantly remove our troops from danger.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:09:36 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
This more than likely will be incorperated into a robotic sentinal gun on top of the track. And yess, the gun will fire a burst at the originating vector. Just like ailiens..... Spooky.

Until the first bystander is hit and/or a mosque is hit. Rules of engagement will then require that the shooter be identified before unleashing the system, which will render it useless.

If we fought this war in a manner that would allow the systems suggested to work then we would not have gotten into the predicament we're in. We would never have held any punches back and would have decimated any resistance long ago.

We work hard to develop the most advanced and lethal systems that we will never use because someone might get hurt.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:27:21 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

The Russians still haven't mastered the flush toilet. Somehow I doubt their "simple" system is reliable. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:31:30 AM EDT

[#10]

Isn't there a motar version of the stirker?

Be nice if the defense system relayed the bad guys position to the mortar section for a quick response. Be even nicer if there was an automated indirect fire system combined with the defensive system.

Hell, toss up some unmanned recon drones to fly cover. When the defensive system detects and defeats a missile launch the drone searches for body heat signitures and directs the return indirect fire mission.

Get rid of the man on board and automate the whole thing. Add an automated direct fire capability to complement the indirect fire and the defensive capabilites and have them do regular patrols, convoy defense, or Thunder Runs into hot zones.

The rise of the machines.

Of course this won't negate the necessity of having real grunts on the ground but it'd be uber cool to have a mobile totally autonomous networked force with their own covering unmanned drones performing route clearing duty or a remotely driven force with remotely operated gun platorms with some level of autonomous defensive capabilites with maybe a back up force of manned strikers moments away if something big came up!!!

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:41:41 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

The Russians still haven't mastered the flush toilet. Somehow I doubt their "simple" system is reliable. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

Yes ARENA was a joke from the begining.

Radar conrolled claymores are not going to be very effective. Even if the control system actually worked.

Quick Strike seems to be much easier to install and to use than that.

I would like to see how small they managed to get the missile.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:45:06 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

The Russians still haven't mastered the flush toilet. Somehow I doubt their "simple" system is reliable. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

Oh yeah? It's that Russian "simple" system, the RPG, that seems to be everyones bugbear....

The Russians are pretty good at the "simple" but usually quite effective solution... BM21 Rockets and AK47's for instance.

ANdy

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:45:25 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
That's pretty impressive when you really think about it.

I mean, how long is an RPG round actually IN flight ? A few seconds ??

Fascinating stuff.

I suspect most RPG flights last less than a second.

RPG-7V
Calibre: launcher, 40mm
Length: launcher, 950mm
Weight: launcher with sight, 6.9 kg
Muzzle Velocity: 120 m/s
Max flight velocity: 300 m/s
Range: moving targets, 300 m; stationary target 500m

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:46:49 AM EDT

[#14]

Amazing.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:53:30 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Yes ARENA was a joke from the begining.

Radar conrolled claymores are not going to be very effective. Even if the control system actually worked.

Quick Strike seems to be much easier to install and to use than that.

I would like to see how small they managed to get the missile.

Yeah, ARENA is such a joke the Israels have copied the concept, and we know how stupid the IDF is...

Trophy Active Protection System

RAFAEL (system) / IAI Elta (threat detection)

Trophy Active Defense System (ADS) is marketed by General dynamics, based on a system designed in Israel by an industry consortium headed by RAFAEL, including IMI and IAI/ELTA. After evaluating several systems available in the world market, General Dynamics selected the system for further improvement and is offering a version of the system to the US Army and other customers. GD plans to introduce the system with every new and existing combat vehicle it produces, including Stryker, M-1A2 and FCS. According to GD officials, the system can be adapted to US requirements and enter production within two years. The system has completed hundreds of live test with the Israel Defense Forces and demonstrated effective neutralization of anti-tank rockets and guided missiles, high safety levels, insignificant residual penetration and minimal collateral damage. The system is in full scale engineering phase for inclusion on Merkava Mk. 4 tanks and the future light armored vehicle (Stryker).

The Trophy system has three elements providing – Threat Detection and Tracking, Launching and Intercept functions. The Threat Detection and Warning subsystem consists of several sensors, including flat-panel radars, placed at strategic locations around the protected vehicle, to provide full hemispherical coverage. Once an incoming threat is detected identified and verified, the Countermeasure Assembly is opened, the countermeasure device is positioned in the direction where it can effectively intercept the threat. Then, it is launched automatically into a ballistic trajectory to intercept the incoming threat at a relatively long distance.

Specific details about the composition and mechanism of this explosive interceptor device are vague. From the briefing provided by US sources, Defense Update understands that Trophy is design to form a "beam" of fragments, which will intercept any incoming HEAT threat, including RPG rockets at a range of 10 – 30 meters from the protected platform. The Trophy development roadmap considers an enhanced countermeasure unit to be available in the future, and protect against kinetic energy (KE) threats. Trophy was designed to effectively operate in a dense urban environment, where armored vehicles operate closely with integrated infantry forces. Therefore, direction, formation and energy of the fragments are designed to ensure effective target kill with low collateral damage, and low risk to nearby troops. While not in use, the system is maintained in the stowed position, protected by an armor shield. The system has an automatic reload mechanism to handle multiple attacks.

The system can simultaneously engage several threats, arriving from different directions, is effective on stationary or moving platforms, and is effective against short and long range threats (such as RPGs and ATGM). Trophy was designed to be effective in open or closed terrain, including urban area and can be operated

http://www.defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm

IAI Trophy brochure

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:55:14 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

The Russians still haven't mastered the flush toilet. Somehow I doubt their "simple" system is reliable. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

Oh yeah? It's that Russian "simple" system, the RPG, that seems to be everyones bugbear....

The Russians are pretty good at the "simple" but usually quite effective solution... BM21 Rockets and AK47's for instance.

ANdy

I dont understand where they get the idea that the RPG is anyones bugbear... maybe its the media

When it takes a dozen or more to kill a Bradley and they usually cant kill a M1 at all- or if they do its usually because the crew ran out of fire extinguishers... they are defeated by a simple expediant like the rail armor.

But this keeps us a jump ahead because Javelin and Spike are man portible weapons that existing tanks are very vulnerable to because of their top attack feature. You cant make the top of tanks any heavier, so searching for a active solution was pretty much manditory.

And it will help on the damage bill. Even though M1s and Bradleys are hard to knock out with RPGs they do collect damage in the attempt and expensive bits have to be replaced. They may be able to drive back but it costs money to fix them up so they can go back out again.

Posted: 2/9/2006 6:57:18 AM EDT

[#17]

The Trophy system has three elements providing – Threat Detection and Tracking, Launching and Intercept functions. The Threat Detection and Warning subsystem consists of several sensors, including flat-panel radars, placed at strategic locations around the protected vehicle, to provide full hemispherical coverage. Once an incoming threat is detected identified and verified, the Countermeasure Assembly is opened, the countermeasure device is positioned in the direction where it can effectively intercept the threat. Then, it is launched automatically into a ballistic trajectory to intercept the incoming threat at a relatively long distance.

That is not the same as Arena.
Its firing a projectile at the incoming. Not a shotgun blast from a tarted up reactive armor panel...

Either way, GD is a day late and a dolar short, if Raytheon already has a mini-missile

Posted: 2/9/2006 7:05:21 AM EDT

[#18]

.

Posted: 2/9/2006 7:16:20 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Either way, GD is a day late and a dolar short, if Raytheon already has a mini-missile

I'd say TROPHY was well ahead of the Raytheon system in system proving and deployability....

Rafael TROPHY Demonstration Video

Posted: 2/9/2006 9:52:43 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

I remember reading about testing of such systems by Europe, the US and the USSR in the late 80s/early 90s. This is not a new idea. My guess is the radars have finally gotten to the point where they're able to do the job effectively.

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:24:18 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way, GD is a day late and a dolar short, if Raytheon already has a mini-missile

I'd say TROPHY was well ahead of the Raytheon system in system proving and deployability....

Rafael TROPHY Demonstration Video

It's a fundamental difference in tech, though.

TROPHY will work just fine against rockets. What it won't deal with is a kinetic energy penetrator.

The current Raytheon system may not, either - but that technology can be advanced to a level where it can intercept a KE round.

Right now, because what we're facing in Iraq is RPG's, it's easy to get fixated on that 'threat'. But there are other threats, that are far more dangerous, in the hands of our potential enemies, and those need to be addressed, also. If those systems stop RPG's, too, the more the better.

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:40:02 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sounds like a Johnny come lately and over complicated version of the ARENA-E system the Russians developed.

The Arena Active Protection System (APS) is an active countermeasure system developed at Russia's Kolomna-based Engineering Design Bureau to provide anti-missile defense for T-90 tanks. It uses millimeter-wavelength radar to detect incoming projectiles, then fires a defensive explosive at the incoming round, timed to detonate immediately in front of the target.
Arena was designed partly in response to vulnerabilities in T-80 and other tanks, discovered during fighting in Chechnya in the 1990s. It is intended to help protect a tank from light anti-tank weapons and ATGMs, including those with top-attack warheads.
The system cost is approximately $300,000.

armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

The Russians still haven't mastered the flush toilet. Somehow I doubt their "simple" system is reliable. I wouldn't stake my life on it.

Oh yeah? It's that Russian "simple" system, the RPG, that seems to be everyones bugbear....

The Russians are pretty good at the "simple" but usually quite effective solution... BM21 Rockets and AK47's for instance.

ANdy

I would say our "bugbear" is the politicians unwillingness to allow us to use our strengths to our advantage. If we volunteer to dumb our equipment and tactics down to RPG standards then yes, they're a problem. Fight using every advantage we have in equipment, tactics and so on and we can clean house. But they don't want to hurt anyone...precisely why our troops will never see any of these systems developed or used to their fullest potential.

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:42:17 AM EDT

[#23]

What happens when snipers figure out they need to target those sensors first? These guys are barbarians but they ain't all stupid.

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:50:47 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way, GD is a day late and a dolar short, if Raytheon already has a mini-missile

I'd say TROPHY was well ahead of the Raytheon system in system proving and deployability....

Rafael TROPHY Demonstration Video

So you're telling me the Chinese military uses the TROPHY system?

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:51:24 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Either way, GD is a day late and a dolar short, if Raytheon already has a mini-missile

I'd say TROPHY was well ahead of the Raytheon system in system proving and deployability....

Rafael TROPHY Demonstration Video

It's a fundamental difference in tech, though.

TROPHY will work just fine against rockets. What it won't deal with is a kinetic energy penetrator.

The current Raytheon system may not, either - but that technology can be advanced to a level where it can intercept a KE round.

Right now, because what we're facing in Iraq is RPG's, it's easy to get fixated on that 'threat'. But there are other threats, that are far more dangerous, in the hands of our potential enemies, and those need to be addressed, also. If those systems stop RPG's, too, the more the better.

You did watch the viseo didn't you? About halfway through it's shown destroying a KE penetrator in field tests.

ANdy

Posted: 2/9/2006 10:51:58 AM EDT

[#26]

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RAYTHEON QUICK KILL...COMING TO A STRYKER NEAR YOU? (Page 2 of 2)

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