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Posted: 2/7/2006 10:36:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:43:39 AM EDT by stangleonthedangle]
How do you determine accurate barrel length?

Do you measure from the bolt face to the end of the flash hider?


Also, when measuring overall length do you measure with stock collapsed or extended?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:39:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:40:04 AM EDT by thelastgunslinger]

Originally Posted By stangleonthedangle:
How do you determine accurate barrel length?

Do you measure from the bolt face to the end of the frash hider?


Also, when measuring overall length do you measure with stock collapsed or extended?



frash hider? is that like a frush?

[booger]what the fuck's a frush?[/booger]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:40:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:43:17 AM EDT by Ponyboy]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:42:01 AM EDT
tag for form 2 info
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:42:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:

Originally Posted By stangleonthedangle:
How do you determine accurate barrel length?

Do you measure from the bolt face to the end of the frash hider?


Also, when measuring overall length do you measure with stock collapsed or extended?



frash hider? is that like a frush?

[booger]what the fuck is a frush?[/booger]



Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:44:26 AM EDT
what, you guys don't have frash hiders?............get with the times!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:44:42 AM EDT
Alphabet boys will use a dowel and as ya stated "measure from the bolt face to the end of the FLASH suppressor".

Overall length will be at it's shortest (stock collapsed).

Mike
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:47:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:05:19 AM EDT by Ponyboy]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:05:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ponyboy:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:
Alphabet boys will use a dowel and as ya stated "measure from the bolt face to the end of the FLASH suppressor".

Overall length will be at it's shortest (stock collapsed).

Mike




This is wrong on both counts.



Care to explain your comments?

Barrel length has always been measured from the bolt face to the end of the barrel or perm FS.

There is no MAXIMUM required length, but their is a MINIMUM reguired length, so as long as your rifle (w/ stock collapsed) is over the MINIMUM ya should be okay.

Mike
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:07:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:11:56 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
And what makes you assume he's asking about SBRs?

Mike


ETA, so how was I wrong when your added comments are the same as what I stated?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:09:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:12:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:20:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:26:02 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Your splitting some mighty fine hairs there pony.

And your wrong about the overall measurement. If your rifle's overall length (w/ stock collapsed to end of muzzle) is LESS than 26" you have an illegal rifle, (requiring an SBR form).

And while I should have stated "end of the barrel or perm mounted FS" upfront, I assumed given the fact he knew the correct manner in which to measure, he'd know the difference between a legal length barrel and one needing the permanent FS.

Mike

ETA, we seem to be coming at this from differing perspectives...., as this is the GD forum, not the M16 forum, I did not assume he was asking about a NFA rifle.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:28:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:29:05 AM EDT
Keep in mind that state law varies as to what the minimum OAL of a firearm must be. You maybe legal under Federal law and not legal under state law.

The ATF has held that the OAL length of a firearm should be determined with the stock extended but state law might use a different standard.

Code of Federal Regulations
Title 27 Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms
PART 479—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS

479.11 Meaning of terms.

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:56:27 AM EDT
Michigan is a state that has a different OAL and method of determining the OAL of a firearm. I have not verified that the info in the link is still valid or if it has been superseded.

www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/agopinions/MI_6280.txt

Opinion No. 6280
March 20, 1985

PISTOLS:

Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30
inches or less as a pistol

SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE:

Rifle fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a
'short-barreled rifle'

SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUN:

Shotgun fully operable with stock folded or contracted as a
'short-barreled shotgun'

WEAPONS:

Firearm fully operable when folded or contracted with length of 30
inches or less as a pistol

A firearm containing a stock capable of being contracted or folded
to an overall length of 30 inches or less and being fully operable
in such contracted or folded condition is a pistol requiring
licensure for purchase, carrying or transport, and is subject to
safety inspection.

A rifle with a barrel of at least 16 inches in length and a stock
capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less
than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded
condition, is a 'short-barreled rifle' whose sale or possession is
prohibited.

A shotgun with a barrel of at least 18 inches in length and a stock
capable of being contracted or folded to an overall length of less
than 26 inches, being fully operable in such contracted or folded
condition, is a 'short-barreled shotgun' whose sale or possession
is prohibited.

Colonel Gerald L. Hough
Director
Michigan Department of State Police
714 S. Harrison Road
East Lansing, MI 48823

You have requested my opinion on two questions relating to certain
firearms. Examples of the types of firearms at issue include the
UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length--16.1 inches; length
with stock contracted--24.4 inches; length with stock
expanded--31.5 inches); the Remington 870P shotgun (barrel
length--18 inches; length with stock folded--28.5 inches; length
with stock unfolded--38.5 inches); and the Universal Firearms
#5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle (barrel length--18 inches;
length with stock folded--27 inches; length with stock unfolded--36
inches).

Your first question is:

Are firearms with folding and/or telescoping stocks which are fully
operable with the stocks folded or contracted and whose lengths are
30 inches or less with the stocks folded or contracted 'pistols,'
as defined in MCL 28.421 et seq; MSA 28.91 et seq, and, thus,
subject to the provisions contained therein?

The definition of the term 'pistol' is set forth in subsection (a)
of MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91:

"Pistol' means any firearm, loaded or unloaded, 30 inches or less
in length, or any firearm, loaded or unloaded, which by its
construction and appearance conceals it as a firearm.'

'Firearm' is defined in MCL 8.3t; MSA 2.212(20):

'The word 'firearm', except as otherwise specifically defined in
the statutes, shall be construed to include any weapon from which
a dangerous projectile may be propelled by using explosives, gas or
air as a means of propulsion, except any smooth bore rifle or
handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling BB's
not exceeding .177 caliber by means of spring, gas or air.'

In Huron Advertising Co v Charter Twp of Pittsfield, 110 Mich App
398, 402; 313 NW2d 132 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich 855 (1982), the
court stated:

'All words and phrases in ordinances and statutes must be construed
according to their common and approved usage. . . . Effect must
also be given to each part of a sentence, so as not to render
another part nugatory. . . . Judicial construction of a statute or
ordinance is inappropriate where the language of the statute is
unambiguous.'

The definition of the term 'pistol' in MCL 28.421; MSA 28.91, is
unambiguous. It clearly covers all firearms which are not more than
30 inches in length. The firearms which are described generally in
the first question and specifically in the examples are fully
operable when they are 30 inches or less in length and are pistols
under MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92.

MCL 28.422; MSA 28.92, provides that no person shall purchase,
carry or transport a pistol without first obtaining a license
therefor. A person who owns or comes into possession of a pistol is
required to present such weapon for safety inspection to the
applicable local law enforcement officer in accordance with MCL
28.429; MSA 28.99.

It is my opinion, therefore, that a firearm which may be contracted
or folded to 30 inches or less and is fully operable in such
condition is a pistol requiring licensure for purchase, carrying or
transport, and is subject to safety inspection.

Your second question is:

Are rifles and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches
in length, respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks
which are fully operable with the stocks folded or contracted and
whose lengths are less than 26 inches with the stocks folded or
contracted 'short-barreled rifles' and 'short-barreled shotguns,'
respectively, as defined in MCL 750.222 et seq; MSA 28.419 et seq,
and, thus, subject to the provisions contained therein?

MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides:

'(d) 'Shotgun' means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or
remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or
redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in
a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number
of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of the
trigger.

'(e) 'Short-barreled shotgun' means a shotgun having 1 or more
barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon made from a
shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the
weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

'(f) 'Rifle' means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or
remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or
redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in
a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through
a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

'(g) 'Short-barreled rifle' means a rifle having 1 or more barrels
less than 16 inches in length or a weapon made from a rifle,
whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.'

MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(1), provides that a person who
manufactures, sells, offers for sale, or possesses a short-barreled
shotgun or a short-barreled rifle is guilty of a felony. This
section specifically exempts from its provisions the sale, offering
for sale or possession of a short-barreled rifle or a
short-barreled shotgun which the Secretary of the Treasury of the
United States has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum
piece, or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon, but
only if the person selling, offering for sale or possessing the
firearm has fully complied with the provisions of MCL 28.422; MSA
28.92 and MCL 28.429; MSA 28.99.

The firearms which are referred to in the second question will fall
within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun only if they are considered to have been made from a rifle
or shotgun 'by alteration, modification, or otherwise' and are
capable of being folded or contracted to less than 26 inches in
length. It is unclear what is meant by the phrase 'by alteration,
modification, or otherwise' as used in MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419.

To resolve a perceived ambiguity, a court will look to the object
of the statute or rule, the evil or mischief which it is designed
to remedy, and will apply a reasonable construction which best
accomplishes the purpose of the statute or rule. Johnston v Billot,
109 Mich App 578, 589, 590; 311 NW2d 808 (1981), lv den, 414 Mich
955 (1982). In construing a statute, legislative intent may be
determined from consideration of all provisions of the enactment in
question. Wheeler v Tucker Freight Lines Co, Inc., 125 Mich App
123, 126; 336 NW2d 14 (1983), lv den, 418 Mich 867 (1984).

It has been held that the term 'alteration' means a change of a
thing from one form or state to another, making it different from
what it was without destroying its identity. Paye v City of Grosse
Pointe, 279 Mich 254, 257; 271 NW 826 (1937).

It is clear that if a person altered or modified a rifle or a
shotgun with a fixed stock by shortening that stock so that the
overall length of the rifle or the shotgun was less than 26 inches,
such a firearm would fall within the definition of a short-barreled
rifle or a short-barreled shotgun. Sale or possession of such
firearms is prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2):

'(1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or
possess a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle.

'(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony
punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or a fine of
not more than $2,500.00, or both.'

***

In order to effectuate the legislative intent to limit the presence
of such weapons in this state, a rifle or a shotgun which can be
lengthened and shortened at will must also be considered as a
weapon made from a rifle or a shotgun by alteration, modification,
or otherwise when it is capable of being less than 26 inches in
length by folding or contracting its stock.

It is noted that the UZI semiautomatic carbine rifle is a
short-barreled rifle since it is capable of being contracted to an
overall length of 24.4 inches and is fully operable in this
condition. The Remington 870P shotgun has a barrel 18 inches in
length and an overall length of 28.5 inches with the stock folded,
and, therefore, it is not a short-barreled shotgun. The Universal
Firearms #5000-PT semiautomatic carbine rifle has a barrel length
of 18 inches and an overall lenght of 27 inches with the stock
folded, and, thus, it is not a short-barreled rifle.

It is my opinion, in answer to your second question, that rifles
and shotguns whose barrels are at least 16 and 18 inches in length,
respectively, with folding and/or telescoping stocks, which are
fully operable with stocks folded or contracted, and whose lengths
are less than 26 inches with stocks folded or contracted, fall
within the definitions of 'short-barreled rifle' and
'short-barreled shotgun,' and their sale or possession is
prohibited by MCL 750.224b; MSA 28.421(2).

Frank J. Kelley
Attorney General

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:52:47 PM EDT
I am going to SBR my 9mm and on form #1 they ask for overall length so I was wondering collapsed or extended?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:13:51 PM EDT
Ponyboy has covered most of this, but here's the text of the legal definitions that the BATFE goes by:

27CFR479-- PART 479--MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18
inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as
modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length;(c) a rifle having a barrel or
barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle
if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other
weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or
a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included
within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not
include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or
destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director
finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other
characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be
used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the
barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be
determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of
the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or
rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured
along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.




In addition, a firearm with a folding stock is measured with the stock extended, provided the stock is not readily detachable, and the firearm is meant to be fired from the shoulder. See James Bardwell's FAQ on NFA firearms at the rec.guns FAQ site... www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html


Also, while the original post may not have had anything to do with SBRs or NFA items, if measured incorrectly, the firearm may become an item regulated by the NFA.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:22:34 PM EDT
So what's the definition of "readily detacheable"?

The Butler Creek folder on my mini has two screws holding the rear part of the stock to the body. I think I would have to remove the set screw holding the thing together, but I could do it in about 1 minute, but I don't recall how short doing that would make it...

Some stocks out there you could "detach" real readily by smacking it against the floor.
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