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Posted: 2/6/2006 11:20:18 PM EDT
The dominant handguns in the Military and LEO are all foreign. The most sought after auto pistols are all foreign (other than the venerable 1911). Why? How come we can't design and build a modern design that does not suck?

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:22:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:22:38 PM EDT by USGI_45]
Ummm the Ruger Mk2 is a Huge player in the semi auto Rimfire arena. S+W and Ruger make some very good revolvers.


ETA NM My read fu is weak tonight
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:24:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:25:03 PM EDT by LVMIKE]
Not sure. In the long rifle arena, our laws have restricted our development of civilian tested rifles.

If SW would have done things with their their SIGMA series, they could have had a real domestic contender to Glock. It really makes me wonder how they fucked up Glock's design too... Its soo simple.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:32:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USGI_45:
Ummm the Ruger Mk2 is a Huge player in the semi auto Rimfire arena. S+W and Ruger make some very good revolvers.


ETA NM My read fu is weak tonight



I realize I was not super clear in my question either....but oh well. To clarify we are talking auto pistols here.....in service calibers.

It is obvious we kick ass in revolvers...
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:36:06 PM EDT
American handguns suck because the ubertactical nazis pick sigs and HKs instead which in turn get much more promotion and advertisement in gun rags and on television. Ruger pwns all!!!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:38:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:
American handguns suck because the ubertactical nazis pick sigs and HKs instead which in turn get much more promotion and advertisement in gun rags and on television. Ruger pwns all!!!



Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:45:24 PM EDT
There have been some terrific handguns by American companies....they just don't command the ooohs and ahhhhs of the foreign ones.

Personally, I think the Ruger P-series is a true equal of any military sidearm. Indestructable, combat accurate, utterly reliable. Overbuilt. Big? Yup, but so is an M9.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:49:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 11:50:33 PM EDT by Tomislav]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



So why do we see so many innovative designs come from Europe? Surely a Smith and Wesson or Colt could employ talented folks, the same as SIG and HK have done.

But of the biggest US pistol makers:

Colt: 1911, cowboy stuff.
SA: 1911, imported Croatian HS2000.
Kimber (No idea how 'big' they actually are): 1911
S&W: Modestly successful semi pistols, but mostly revolvers and retagged Walther stuff.

It would have been nice to see a P226 or USP designed by a US firm, rather than overseas. *shrug* Guess they are happy selling 1911s and imports.

ETA: Oh ya, Ruger. Bill Ruger may be straight from the devil's ass, but the pistols seem pretty solid.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:50:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By nf9648:
American handguns suck because the ubertactical nazis pick sigs and HKs instead which in turn get much more promotion and advertisement in gun rags and on television. Ruger pwns all!!!



Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



There has GOT to be another John Browning or John Garand somewhere!!!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:52:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By nf9648:
American handguns suck because the ubertactical nazis pick sigs and HKs instead which in turn get much more promotion and advertisement in gun rags and on television. Ruger pwns all!!!



Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



There has GOT to be another John Browning or John Garand somewhere!!!



I'm sure there have been. I'm almost just as certain their 07 license was denied.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 11:52:52 PM EDT
You hit the nail on the head, Styer Aug.

The reason the japs never had a decent MG was directly related to the prohibition on private tinkering with such things. The same goes for some other countries too.

The next "browning" would have to have a lot of patience, and huge ammounts of money behind him - as well as a class 10 license. Then, even if he DID invent the next leap in weapon technology... he could never sell it to the current system. The "NIH" problem with the government is huge. They only buy from the anointed companies that have hired the requisite number of retired general & such....


Lem
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:09:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



So why do we see so many innovative designs come from Europe? Surely a Smith and Wesson or Colt could employ talented folks, the same as SIG and HK have done.

But of the biggest US pistol makers:

Colt: 1911, cowboy stuff.
SA: 1911, imported Croatian HS2000.
Kimber (No idea how 'big' they actually are): 1911
S&W: Modestly successful semi pistols, but mostly revolvers and retagged Walther stuff. and 1911's

It would have been nice to see a P226 or USP designed by a US firm, rather than overseas. *shrug* Guess they are happy selling 1911s and imports.

ETA: Oh ya, Ruger. Bill Ruger may be straight from the devil's ass, but the pistols seem pretty solid.So are boat anchors



I do not hate Rugers, but there is no comparing one to a Eurotrash gun. The ergonomics are like a brick, the finish is ugly, the triggers on all Rugers are a Lawyer's dream come true. And every part that can be is cast.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:16:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I do not hate Rugers, but there is no comparing one to a Eurotrash gun. The ergonomics are like a brick, the finish is ugly, the triggers on all Rugers are a Lawyer's dream come true. And every part that can be is cast.



Shot their new P345?

Great ergos, thin, accurate and although the trigger isn't match, it's certainly as good as a Sig226 or stock H&K.

My P89 is going on 13,000 rounds with not a single malfunction of any kind, ever. Not one. They make a great gun, even if some don't care for their aesthetics. I prefer them to many european guns.

Those cast parts don't seem to hurt their operation one bit, btw.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:31:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I do not hate Rugers, but there is no comparing one to a Eurotrash gun. The ergonomics are like a brick, the finish is ugly, the triggers on all Rugers are a Lawyer's dream come true. And every part that can be is cast.



Shot their new P345?

Great ergos, thin, accurate and although the trigger isn't match, it's certainly as good as a Sig226 or stock H&K.

My P89 is going on 13,000 rounds with not a single malfunction of any kind, ever. Not one. They make a great gun, even if some don't care for their aesthetics. I prefer them to many european guns.

Those cast parts don't seem to hurt their operation one bit, btw.



Ain't touched a 345, or any of the newer guns since they went and put that damn loaded chamber indicator on them...I mean, jesus, like they coulda just put a little red mark on the extractor like every one else but noooooooooooo....they had to put a pop up bill board on it.

Though you have an affinity for Rugers, which I cannot fault you for (I have a thing for Stars), even you have to admit that they are not winning any popularity contests.

I have had some of their cast parts fail in other guns. I have not owned any p series pistols.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:31:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 12:32:42 AM EDT by STG77]
I'm not sure that the "ATF killed the spirit of gun invention in the US" argument holds any water.

All of the widely used imported pistols come from countries with gun laws that are much stricter than the US.

The SIG P220/P226, HK P7 and USP, Walther P99, and Beretta 92 were all designed by established firearms manufacturers, not individuals working with a mini-mill in their basement. The Glock is the only exception I can think of.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:08:34 AM EDT
American gun manufacturing is the same as all other American manufacturing.

We can and do make the best products in the world, in very small numbers.

In the world of handguns, you have your Wilsons, Browns, Baers, Freedom Arms, etc. They start at about $1500 and just go up from there.

Almost every other developed nation on the planet has one small arms manufacturer whos primary business is selling guns to its government.

If the real Springfield Armory were still operating I guarantee they'd be producing world class small arms, and if they were selling to the public they'd be cheap too.

There are small shops in the US that turn out world class products in almost any category you can name, for a price. Our mass produced stuff sucks.

We cannot compete with Japanese or German build quality or South American or Chicom prices on anything mass produced. Our corporate culture just doesn't promote excellent products, it rewards profit margins, for employees, shareholders and particularly management.

How is it that there isn't a successful American chainsaw manufacturer? Who has more timber than we do in North America? The cheap saws all come from Asia, and the good ones all come from Europe.

Ford and GM are falling apart for one reason only, their products suck. Spend a week with a $20K Ford and then a $20K Toyota , look them over real good, drive them, work on them, and then try and tell me different with a straight face.

The funny thing is foreign companies seem to do just fine manufacturing products in the US, it isn't the labor or the regulation or the environmental regs or whatever that's killing us, it's a corporate culture where the guys running the companies are more concerned about successfully diluting the publicly traded stock by issueing options to themselves, exercising them, selling the shares, and then buying them back with company funds to keep the share price up, (a practice that is perfectly legal and almost universal in corporate America because the typical stockholder doesn't even know what companies they hold in their 401K, let alone what management is doing) than providing the best possible products at any particular pricepoint.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:14:12 AM EDT
We don't NEED a "new" American pistol. The 1911A1 in it's many, current configurations and calibers offers anything and everything you actually need in an auto loading handgun. From double stacks to high class art guns the 1911 encompasses it all.

For all other needs see either: Browning High Power or Glock.


Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:17:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak: The dominant handguns in the Military and LEO are all foreign. The most sought after auto pistols are all foreign (other than the venerable 1911). Why? How come we can't design and build a modern design that does not suck?
'Gubment regulation and bureaucracy make it difficult for US gun manufacturers to deliver top notch products because it's harder to make a profit.

Look at the computer biz. There's very little 'gubment regulation there so performance and quality is top notch.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:11:00 AM EDT
I geg to differ on the whole "its all the ATF's fault" line..

Stoner worked for a private company..

Garand worked for a Gov't agency.

One can still create and build a design without a license... Then it can be sold to a large corperation... Similar to "Carbine" Williams.

The whole invention scene has changed from 100 years ago.. Their are no more Edisons or Bells that single handedly invent a revolutionary item.. Instead, its all large corperations..

Sure, we all know who invented the light bulb, telephone, record player, etc... But who invented stuff we actually use like the cell phone, CD/MP3 player, florecent light bulb, etc?

I think it has to do more with US Companies always trying to cut corners and maximize profits.

HK, Steyr, FN, and others have had no problem designing a good weapon, and Euro gun laws are 20x more restrictive then the US.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:11:22 AM EDT
American Handguns are as good as they get. every country has it's signiture handgun,
America:1911 .45acp <-----supreme
Austria:Glock 17/19 9mm <----------Though works well we all know .45 p3wns
Germany:Sig 226/220 9mm/45acp great weapons but big

we do not need the next best thing in handguns we already have it other countries just made theirs more pretty and higher capacity to compete but they still fall short.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:15:58 AM EDT
We made the 1911...we don't NEED any other handgun!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:47:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stottman: HK, Steyr, FN, and others have had no problem designing a good weapon, and Euro gun laws are 20x more restrictive then the US.
Yeah, but they aren't looking to sell them to Euro civilians. That's why it is the US 'gubment's fault over here. The domestic gun market in the USA isn't even close to being saturated. Americans can afford multiple TV's and computers per house, we can afford multiple guns per house too. But the paperwork and the regulations are so cumbersome that companies don't want to spend the money and take the effort, so they just sell what's already in the pipeline instead of risking losses and lawsuits.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:50:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:53:18 AM EDT by five2one]

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:
American Handguns are as good as they get. every country has it's signiture handgun,
America:1911 .45acp <-----supreme
Austria:Glock 17/19 9mm <----------Though works well we all know .45 p3wns
Switzerland Germany:Sig 226/220 9mm/45acp great weapons but big

we do not need the next best thing in handguns we already have it other countries just made theirs more pretty and higher capacity to compete but they still fall short.




"Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft or SIG is a Swiss firearms manufacturer, whose products are imported into the USA under the name SIGARMS."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizerische_Industrie_Gesellschaft
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:03:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By Stottman: HK, Steyr, FN, and others have had no problem designing a good weapon, and Euro gun laws are 20x more restrictive then the US.
Yeah, but they aren't looking to sell them to Euro civilians. That's why it is the US 'gubment's fault over here. The domestic gun market in the USA isn't even close to being saturated. Americans can afford multiple TV's and computers per house, we can afford multiple guns per house too. But the paperwork and the regulations are so cumbersome that companies don't want to spend the money and take the effort, so they just sell what's already in the pipeline instead of risking losses and lawsuits.



I dont see a difference at all.. The main market is still the same; Gov't and LEO sales. If anything, the US market would be much better just for the LEO side of the house.. In Europe, they have one large national Police force... When the German Polizei adopt a new pistol, almost all the Polizei in Germany get the same thing (HK P2000); In the US, every Barney Fife agency picks their own.

Any civilian sales are a bonus.

If you look at past offerings, any US made non sporting gun that only has a civilian only purpose or is not applicable to LEO use ends up bankrupting the factory.. How many Assault weapon companies from the 80s that made their own unique design are still around?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 4:11:42 AM EDT
If XD is not American, then Ford and GM are not American auto companies.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:15:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 5:20:01 AM EDT by Redmanfms]

Originally Posted By jixxerbeast:
American Handguns are as good as they get. every country has it's signiture handgun,
America:1911 .45acp <-----supreme
Austria:Glock 17/19 9mm <----------Though works well we all know .45 p3wns
Germany:Sig 226/220 9mm/45acp great weapons but big

we do not need the next best thing in handguns we already have it other countries just made theirs more pretty and higher capacity to compete but they still fall short.



Dude, Sig is Swiss.

Edited: five2one beat me.


Cops use Glocks because they are lawyered "idiot-proof" weapons that are super cheap.

I'll join the others in writing that Ruger still shows American innovation isn't dead. Y'all can have your Sigs, HKs, and Glocks, I'll keep my Colt 1911A1 and Ruger P95.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:18:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 5:19:23 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:19:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
We don't NEED a "new" American pistol. The 1911A1 in it's many, current configurations and calibers offers anything and everything you actually need in an auto loading handgun. From double stacks to high class art guns the 1911 encompasses it all.

For all other needs see either: Browning High Power or Glock.





Took the words right out of my mouth. We have the 1911, there is no need for improvement.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:22:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:27:48 AM EDT
Two companies owned the American handgun market for deacades and there was no real competition or urgency. That type of environment isn't good for fostering innovation. By the time they tried to do something different, they were so far behind, all they did was make crappy knock-offs like the Sigma and the Double Eagle.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:30:22 AM EDT
I would guess that the problem is two fold:

A.) Gundom is pretty far from the bleeding edge as of late, which isn't a good place to be if you are wanting to attract the best and brightest to push the industry forward. The ATFs exasperate the problems, but they didn't cause it.

B.) There isn't a lot more to be done with guns burning solid propellant. All the new designs that have launched as of late are basically refinements of an old operating system, typically either the AR-18 or the AK-47. There will be another revolutionary leap in personal weapons systems, but it needs time for compact and powerful power systems to be developed, like ultra high output ceramic core lithium batteries, or fuel cells, or sonofusion cells. Once that happens we will have a generation full of 21st century JMBs bring the first rail guns, coil guns, and pulse lasers to the market. (None of which would be considered firearms or DD btw) Keep in mind, how many years were there in-between the muzzle loaded musket and the rifle, or between the rifle and the brass cartridge, or the brass cartridge and the autoloader. Firearms technology breakthroughs always go in fits of invention followed by a long plateau. Also, let's not overly discount the development of modern optics in this.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:31:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



Glock did a lot of work in his cellar. When he tested his prototypes he shot them with his left hand so if something happened his good hand would not be damaged (yeah I know he's no John Browning, but still).




Ronnie Barrett
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 5:38:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By heron163:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



Glock did a lot of work in his cellar. When he tested his prototypes he shot them with his left hand so if something happened his good hand would not be damaged (yeah I know he's no John Browning, but still).




Ronnie Barrett



LOL, there's a good example that slipped my mind.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:01:34 AM EDT


We don't NEED a "new" American pistol. The 1911A1 in it's many, current configurations and calibers offers anything and everything you actually need in an auto loading handgun. From double stacks to high class art guns the 1911 encompasses it all.

For all other needs see either: Browning High Power or Glock.



This is one of the reason why US made handgun sucks, as far as pistol wise, we are stuck in 1911. The 1911 is a complicated pistol that require alot of hand finish and touch labor. Fit and finish by skilled labor is a must.

Also there is alot to say about corporate culture, especially the quick turnaround for profit culture, which hurts American innovation. The worse thing that happens to US and American Industries are the mutual funds, which demand short term profit for money invested, thus forcing companies not to take risks.

Have anyone looked at the S&W M&P yet?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:08:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:
The most sought after auto pistols are all foreign (other than the venerable 1911).



1911's and revolvers are still a good chunk of the market.
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, most bands on pistols aren't aimed at revolvers and there aren't a whole lot of Glock and HK revolvers in the gun stores I go to.

Plus, I figure what the US gun companies lack in innovative pistols they make up for in AR15 sales.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:08:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Two companies owned the American handgun market for deacades and there was no real competition or urgency. That type of environment isn't good for fostering innovation. By the time they tried to do something different, they were so far behind, all they did was make crappy knock-offs like the Sigma and the Double Eagle.


The Double Eagle(D.E.) were okay guns, I've got a D.E., true when you remove the grip panel the trigger bar for DA would fall off, but then the Xenoloy grip panels were pretty tough. A truely terrrible gun would be the Gene Stoner & Reed KNight designed Colt produced All-American 2000.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:16:26 AM EDT
It's the same reason that American cars aren't considered as good as the imports, and the repair rates seem to agree. To design and build it here, the price will be higher than just about anywhere else.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:17:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By nf9648:
American handguns suck because the ubertactical nazis pick sigs and HKs instead which in turn get much more promotion and advertisement in gun rags and on television. Ruger pwns all!!!



Wrong. The correct answer is because we haven't had another John Browning come along and even IF we did US laws are such that the poor guy would NEVER have the opportunity to develop his designs.

The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.





BINGO!
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:21:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
We made the 1911...we don't NEED any other handgun!



+1. 95 years without any significant improvements.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:21:49 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:25:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:


There has GOT to be another John Browning or John Garand somewhere!!!



John Garand was Canadian.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:27:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Two companies owned the American handgun market for deacades and there was no real competition or urgency. That type of environment isn't good for fostering innovation. By the time they tried to do something different, they were so far behind, all they did was make crappy knock-offs like the Sigma and the Double Eagle.


The Double Eagle(D.E.) were okay guns, I've got a D.E., true when you remove the grip panel the trigger bar for DA would fall off, but then the Xenoloy grip panels were pretty tough. A truely terrrible gun would be the Gene Stoner & Reed KNight designed Colt produced All-American 2000.



I forgot about that turd.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:40:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yekimak:

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By yekimak:
I do not hate Rugers, but there is no comparing one to a Eurotrash gun. The ergonomics are like a brick, the finish is ugly, the triggers on all Rugers are a Lawyer's dream come true. And every part that can be is cast.



Shot their new P345?

Great ergos, thin, accurate and although the trigger isn't match, it's certainly as good as a Sig226 or stock H&K.

My P89 is going on 13,000 rounds with not a single malfunction of any kind, ever. Not one. They make a great gun, even if some don't care for their aesthetics. I prefer them to many european guns.

Those cast parts don't seem to hurt their operation one bit, btw.



Ain't touched a 345, or any of the newer guns since they went and put that damn loaded chamber indicator on them...I mean, jesus, like they coulda just put a little red mark on the extractor like every one else but noooooooooooo....they had to put a pop up bill board on it.

Though you have an affinity for Rugers, which I cannot fault you for (I have a thing for Stars), even you have to admit that they are not winning any popularity contests.

I have had some of their cast parts fail in other guns. I have not owned any p series pistols.



I thought I was the only one. Actually I'm really weird, I like Rugers and Stars. I have a Ruger P94 .40 a Star Firestar 9mm and a Star Model 30 9mm.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:44:56 AM EDT
There have been many good American designs lately. I would agree with the premise that foreign made pistols are better if we were talking about the mid 80s, but not today. I believe the thing that hurt American companies the most was their failure to be sensitive to customer wants. Before the early 90s, American companies would make anything you wanted provided it was soemthing they were already tooled up for.

The U. S. Army trials helped end this. When Beretta came in 1st, Sig-Sauer 2nd, S&W 3rd, and Colt and Ruger no where to be found, it signaled to U. S. gunmakers that they would have to improve their lines. After Beretta won the contract, all of us ran to foreign guns. I know, my PD did wholeheartedly. Most of us were toting Beretta 92FS, just like the armed forces, plus it had a real sexy Eye-talian name. Cool huh? We had a few problems with Beretta, not many but a few. Like any weapons system it didn't work too good for some folks and eventually other weapons were added. Well, we couldn't buy something with a plain Jane vanilla American sounding name, could we? No, we had to have that sexy European sounding name on our Roscoes. About this same time, Gaston Glock comes along with a cheap design that he is practically giving away to LE just to get in the market. PDs jumped in with both feet. "Hey, we can save the city budget a lot of money and still give our folks something Euro!" So, many PDs and individual officers started trading in their trusty S&W revolvers and autos in for the Grock. Now, we've had lots of trouble with this one. In fact, if you're paying close attention, you'll see many PDs starting to get away from the Block now.

I'm rambling but...American makers are making good products. Our 1911s are great but there are other good designs out there. American gunmakers also seem to be trying to offer everything a young boy wants in a gun now, special barrels, sights, rails, etc., just to attract American purchasers. Some of our gunmakers are selling almost as many in Europe as they sell here i.e. S&W through Wischo in Germany. Weird huh? S&W a big seller in the land of Sig-Sauer, Walther, Glock, H&K, doesn't make sense does it? Maybe, S&W sounds exotic to them just like the Euro guns sound exotic to us. If a pistol trial was held again for a new U.S. military sidearm, I believe we'd see Made and Designed in the USA on the winner.

BTW, Let's hope S&W has a winner with the new M&P. I still believe in good 'ole American ingenuity. Now where's my American flag?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:48:44 AM EDT
At least where civilian sales are concerned, we (at least partially) want foreign due to the "safety enhancements" of domestic firearms.

Politically-correct-but-actually-potentially-detrimental "safety features" seem to steer people away from the current handguns in the US market. Hey, it locks! Ok, thats really something I want in my way when I might need to fire RIGHT NOW! There are documented instances where locks lock up on their own, great! I know I'll pass on this.

If every gun manufacturer goes out of business because of pressure from .gov to make handguns PC and resulting in nobody purchasing them, then I guess (no, I hope) a lesson will be learned by someone.

Interesting thread on 1911 vs. everything else here brings light to the safety issues, advertising dollars, small US companies, and coverage in magazines which influence buying decisions I'm sure.

I don't have kids, and I dont have kids in my house... I don't WANT anything "locked" on a tool that potentially needs to be used within seconds. LEO gets the option of locking sideplates yet civilians do not!

I'm sorry that theres multitudes of people out there unable or mentally uncapable of controlling their firearms and/or kids... but this is not my responsibility, nor is it my ass that should be made to suffer. Begin prosecuting people for stupidity or bad parenting, instead.

Meanwhile, I'm not buying anything "PC" and therefore, I guess by default, I'm not supporting American companies hell bent on blowing .gov and it's lobby groups.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 6:57:42 AM EDT
How many of you have ever fired one of these?



or these?



or these?



American handguns don't suck. In some ways my 908s is superior to my P2000.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:36:24 AM EDT
The reason why the M9 was adopted was price, $279 per copy. I would argue that in the CCW realm an american pistol reigns supreme---Kahr. Designed and built right here in the USA. About the size of a Walther PPK, but able to shoot +P+ these guns are well made, the steel ones anyway.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 7:43:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 7:45:52 AM EDT by triburst1]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
How many of you have ever fired one of these?

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson//upload/images/firearms/209000_large.jpg

or these?

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/103890_large.jpg

or these?

www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/204780_large.jpg

American handguns don't suck. In some ways my 908s is superior to my P2000.





Yes.

Yes.

and yes.

I actually owned a 5906 and a 1006. I loved the 10mm cartridge, and I still carry a 9mm, but the ergonomics of the S&W autos SUCKED. The 3913 is the only Smith auto that ever felt decent in my hand, but the safety was still terrible. Don't even get me started on the Chiefs Special autos that are like a block of steel with a trigger.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:09:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:
I'm not sure that the "ATF killed the spirit of gun invention in the US" argument holds any water.

All of the widely used imported pistols come from countries with gun laws that are much stricter than the US.

The SIG P220/P226, HK P7 and USP, Walther P99, and Beretta 92 were all designed by established firearms manufacturers, not individuals working with a mini-mill in their basement. The Glock is the only exception I can think of.



But in the US innovation "traditionally" comes from a individual rather than a company. That is the difference. In the US a person with a brilliant idea doesn't think "Hey I need to get hired by Company X so I can develop this." Or at least they didn't used to.

The days of guys making a better mousetrap while ice skating in their living room are almost gone.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:17:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


The days of guys like Browning making a better firearm in their home workshop are LONG GONE.



Glock did a lot of work in his cellar. When he tested his prototypes he shot them with his left hand so if something happened his good hand would not be damaged (yeah I know he's no John Browning, but still).




And that, sir, is called foreshadowing...



SBG
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 8:19:37 AM EDT
I always figured it was part of a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

Like the AR system. It works, so most people don't fool with the overall idea much. BUT they do end up making a thousand variations on the base system.

So instead of ending up with the FAL, G36, XM8, G3, Beretta's rifle, F2000, etc we get the AR-15, M4, Recce, SAM-R, Commando, 7.5", pistol cal, etc.

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