Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former.

+1

People dont realize the mental anguish some people go though everyday. Sometimes its an organic problem and other times its self created.  Regardless its a sad day but sometimes I think people come to the realization that it really doesnt matter anymore and they are tired of fighting to live everyday.

It seems to me that threads like this reveals some of the trash thats present on this board.  I actually think its OK because you get a real view of what they are thinking and you can make a mental note to ignore them.

ETA:  The scary part is that suicide causes others to do the same.  They see the example, take courage from it and do themselves in.  Its not unusual for kids especially to do this.  Thats why they get so bent out of shape when kids kill themselves.  Because experience shows that more will follow.

Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former.

Wouldn't be surprised if you are right.  Modern society doesn't have the kind of communal support structure that it once did.  Of course, on the other hand 100 years ago there were more honorable ways of shortening your life if you wanted to.  Join the foreign legion, gambling in a frontier town in Texas, etc.

Quoted: Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former. +1 People dont realize the mental anguish some people go though everyday. Sometimes its an organic problem and other times its self created.  Regardless its a sad day but sometimes I think people come to the realization that it really doesnt matter anymore and they are tired of fighting to live everyday. It seems to me that threads like this reveals some of the trash thats present on this board.  I actually think its OK because you get a real view of what they are thinking and you can make a mental note to ignore them. ETA:  The scary part is that suicide causes others to do the same.  They see the example, take courage from it and do themselves in.  Its not unusual for kids especially to do this.  Thats why they get so bent out of shape when kids kill themselves.  Because experience shows that more will follow.

Going shopping is an excercise in pain anymore.  Especially the Mall or somewhere like Walmart.  It is like going to a psych hospital and I never liked the psych BS anyhow.   Unfortunately it was a very large percentage of patients who come to the doc all the time. Easily 40-50%.

Last time I was at Walmart, Christmas shopping, I couldn't get out of there fast enough. Gave me the f'ing willies to be around all of them.  I would have sworn they brought several busloads from the local psych unit. Seriously - they might have. Schizo's Bipolars, Depressed/anxiety, etc. OMFG, Get me the Hell out of here!
I don't think we bought anything and I was out of there inside of 10 minutes. Arrrggghhh!

Quoted: Quoted: No pie from his wife.... You know it's truly sad a grown man felt the need to post that comment.... ANdy

You cant take the trailertrash out of the man.  You can take the man out of the trailer park though.

Quoted: Life insurance policies often have a 2 year exclusion for suicide. After 2 years, a suicide pays out just like an accident.

I'm pretty sure that's not true with all life insurance. I know a policy that I have would only pay back the premiums that have been paid into the policy in the event of suicide.

Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former.

BIG agreement here. Probably half the people you deal with in law enforcement or emergency medicine are a little beyond reality. Especially the druggies. They can function with effort,  and that does not mean that they'll automatically suicide, but they are not well adjusted at all. Heck, you can even see it on this board.
 

DK-Prof, I am sorry to hear of your wife's loss,

I had a brother who "took a tumble" from a bridge in Erie, Pa almost 14 years ago. He was depressed for a long time and self-medicated with alcohol for many years. In the end he lost his wife, kids and job in his long downward spiral.

He would not be helped with his problems by anyone or anything. Rehabs, treatment, counseling, nothing helped. Some people just can't be saved no matter what you do. He was my brother and I still miss him very much.

Sadly, for some people this is the only peace that they can ever find....

Scott

DK-Prof please pass on my thoughts to your wife, when a suicide happens it affects everyone that has or is associated with the person. My 18 year old nephew commited suicide last July and none of us undstand it because he had everything going for him. Sometimes RX drugs can be linked to suicide like anti depressants or the pain killer neroutin, was he by chance taking any RX meds?

Quoted: Quoted: Life insurance policies often have a 2 year exclusion for suicide. After 2 years, a suicide pays out just like an accident. I'm pretty sure that's not true with all life insurance. I know a policy that I have would only pay back the premiums that have been paid into the policy in the event of suicide.

Most insurances will payout in 2 years for all causes but its not like an accident.  A lot of policies have accidental death riders that will pay double or more then the original amount.  

But 2 years is what is the term before they will pay.  Same with cancer.  If die within a year of getting a new policy.  A lot of times they will not pay out the claim.  It happens to my patients all the time.  A lot of folks take out policies when they find out they are going to die.  Trying to take care of their families.  But the insurance companies werent born yesterday.  So they ask me to certify that they are cancer free.  Then they get the policy and if you croak within the 2 years your family will get the money.

We were fishing near the Tacoma Narrows bridge and a young lady decided to take a dive.  This was several years ago and the coast guard asked us to help search for the body.  They never did find it.  Nasty currents and its pretty deep too in the Puget Sound.  

But she most likely died on impact or was knocked unconscious and drowned or died of injuries sustained in the fall.

Quoted: Why call LonePathfinder a name?  I worry about many of the guys I work with.  For all but one of them, lack of sex with their wife is the major reason they're depressed.  Every single day at work I hear the complaints.  That very well could be the reason.  When a man can't live without something, but isn't willing to break their marital vows to get it, something has to give. I agree with Johninaustin about the fact that suicides and depressions don't always go hand in hand.  Sometimes logical people come to the logical conclusion that they're better off dead.  I know several guys that killed themselves that were in that position.  If you don't have anything to look forward to, then it is really hard to justify continuing on.  I know that, because that's how I feel.  It isn't in anyway depression.  It's the simple fact that I have nothing to live for.  None of my children lived.  None of my relatives have younger children which spending time with them would be something to look forward to.  None of my siblings or their children are still alive.  My wife doesn't even remember my name after I think she had another stroke in November.  I just have nothing to look forward to. DK_Prof, it's interesting that you mentioned he had a "career of helping people."  Having people always ask you for something will take its toll.    One of the nicest guys I've ever known was an Anglican priest that, while he didn't kill himself, he intentionally did not get treatment for a heart attack that killed him.  I never once heard him ask for something for himself.  The man would, and I've seen him do it, give you the last dollar out of his pocket if he thought you needed it.  I strongly believe that three decades of having people ask of him wore him down.z

damn zoom

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No pie from his wife.... jackass Why call LonePathfinder a name?

Why?, ...because it was only meant to provoke, hence the laughing and the peep.  If he really meant the guy was depressed because he wasn't getting any sex from his wife he would have expounded a little more.

Quoted: DK-Prof please pass on my thoughts to your wife, when a suicide happens it affects everyone that has or is associated with the person. My 18 year old nephew commited suicide last July and none of us undstand it because he had everything going for him. Sometimes RX drugs can be linked to suicide like anti depressants or the pain killer neroutin, was he by chance taking any RX meds?

i've wondered if it's the drugs themselves that lead to the suicide, or that the drugs actually work and the person finally has the "energy" to actually act out and follow through on their desire to kill themselves.  I've understood depressed people to lack the drive to kill themselves, so when the anti-depressant starts to work, they finally get the motivation to kill themselves.

Quoted: Depression takes many forms.  A lot of people with depression don't show the classic symptoms.  It's hard to recognize sometimes.  I have it and my closest friends don't have a clue.  One of my brothers has it also.  I've been to that "horrible mental place" and I don't like it, so I work hard at staying away. Not saying that's what happened in this case, but it is possible.  Maybe the real story will come out over time. A guy at work shot himself early last month.  I posted the story here.  It bothered me more because I had sold the gun to another guy at work who loaned it to the suicide.  I wondered then how tortured his mind must have been.

I've been in the same situation.  I sold a gun to a friend who a couple of years later used it to kill himself.  All because of a girl.  I blamed myself for a long time over his death because of the gun he used.

He had called me a couple of months before and during the conversation talked about what a good friend I had been to him.  I asked him what was up and was he planning on doing something stupid, which of course he replied no to.  He seemed alright over the next couple of months until out of the blue he killed himself.  

Maybe I should have gone over and taken his guns away.  Is that my place though?  I don't know, but the warning signs are always there.  I saw one and recognized it but thought he was ok.

Quoted: You never know what's going inside someone's head.  It's usually worse on the family than if they were murdered. That's the worst part of it.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Life insurance policies often have a 2 year exclusion for suicide. After 2 years, a suicide pays out just like an accident. I'm pretty sure that's not true with all life insurance. I know a policy that I have would only pay back the premiums that have been paid into the policy in the event of suicide. The suicide clause is two years with all companies and all states.  Most states allow a shorter suicide clause (or none), but two years is the maximum length allowed.  This means the policy will be rescinded, and the premiums will be refunded sans interest, if death occurs due to suicide in the first two years.   Oh, it is NOT handled "just like an accident"--it is handled the same as a natural death.  If a policy has an "Accidental Death Benefit" rider (what used to be called "double indemnity") the policy would pay double for a death caused by accidental means.  This is never done with a death by suicide.

Ah, here is where I went wrong. Here is the suicide paragraph from my policy:

We will limit the proceeds we pay under this policy if the insured commits suicide, while sane or insane:

1. Within 2 years from the Date of Issue; and

2. After 2 years from the date of issue, but within 2 years from the effective date of the last reinstatement of this policy.

The limited amount will equal all premiums paid on this policy.

Do I understand correctly that the "limited amount" (premiums paid in) will only apply to two years after the start and two years before the end of the policy?

Thanks for the education.

Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former.

I think it has always been this way.

Go back and read accounts of frontier life, and there are many accounts of people just losing it and doing themselves in, from the time of the Puritans to life on the prairies in the 19th century. Isolation and social shunning don't exactly help either. Some people just can't handle life.

Problem is nowadays, there is no more natural selection, so EVERYBODY makes it to adulthood ,in comparison with one hundred years ago and before, where defective people just died from disease and exposure before the age where they would take on more responsibilities like jobs, families, mortgages, homesteads, etc.

High schooler in our neighborhood shot himself in the head after he put his dad's Porsche in a ditch.  The weird thing is the dad is an easy-going guy and the Porsche was salvageable.  The kid was a nice kid and a good student.  I think some people are unable to cope with (seemingly) small setbacks.

Quoted: Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former. BIG agreement here. Probably half the people you deal with in law enforcement or emergency medicine are a little beyond reality. Especially the druggies. They can function with effort,  and that does not mean that they'll automatically suicide, but they are not well adjusted at all. Heck, you can even see it on this board.

Sure can.
I can only imagine what you guys deal with based on what I do.  Pretty much the same population from what I have seen.  And I also agree the druggies are a royal PITA.  I worked in a small metor area of about 65,000 or so and never ran out of them.  I never saw them twice either because I didn't give them shit.  Much bigger problem than people recognize.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is far more mental illness out there than most people realize.  Most are just barely holding it all together in public and after dealing with so many of them they are relatively easy to spot now.  Bottom line though, is that there are a lot.  I don't know if it is a result of modern society or if it has always been this way. I suspect the former. BIG agreement here. Probably half the people you deal with in law enforcement or emergency medicine are a little beyond reality. Especially the druggies. They can function with effort,  and that does not mean that they'll automatically suicide, but they are not well adjusted at all. Heck, you can even see it on this board.   Sure can. I can only imagine what you guys deal with based on what I do.  Pretty much the same population from what I have seen.  And I also agree the druggies are a royal PITA.  I worked in a small metor area of about 65,000 or so and never ran out of them.  I never saw them twice either because I didn't give them shit.  Much bigger problem than people recognize.

It must be bad (in a way) to know enough to spot disorders so easily, like you mentioned about going to Wal-Mart and seeing various problem-people all around you.
  I go there, in my blissful ignorance, and see no problems at all. (Except the occasional drunk or meth-head).  Although I stay alert for threats no matter where I am, I don't have the knowledge to spot neurotic people easily, and I've never been one to pick up on what type of person someone is. I have to see someone's actions to make the determination, rather than being able to see it coming. My dad always could, and my wife does, but I'm pretty clueless in that regard.
 Regarding suicide, I know some people respond more with anger because they've seen what it does to those left behind, and seeing it as taking the easy way out while creating more problems for everyone else.

i've noticed in some of these posts that the phrase "committed suicide" is on its way out.  The newer (supposedly more accurate) phrase is "suicided."  I was told in a paramedic seminar a couple years ago  that the phrase "committed suiced" was from when it was a crime to kill oneself.  Now, a person  may simply just suicide themselves.

DK, this time of year, it's possible that money issues are at fault. We're past the normal holiday/depression type suicides, and people are focusing on preparing tax returns. Maybe found himself in too deep and decided that ending his life was an option that would provide for his family via the insurance policy.

Tragic no matter what the reason. Prayers sent for his family.

Quoted: Just be glad he didn't use a gun.

No joke. Years ago a neighbor of mine took that way out. Shotgun. His wife found him. He was the nicest guy you'd ever meet. Sang in the choir at his church. Used to stop by and chat when I was out working in the garden. Never would have guessed he would do it. It's doubly hard on the spouse, who wonders if it's somehow their fault.

Many times it's the last big FU to the family.  

A friend of mine in HS killed himself because he couldn't get off drugs.

Guns are used because they are handy in many cases and easy.  In Japan where there are few guns but lots of trains, stepping in front of a train is the method of choice.

As far as insurance money is concerned, a lot of single car accidents into bridge abutments or similar are thought to be suicides.  It's easier on the family, not much, but better than splattering yourself all over the room and letting a person who thought they were a"loved" one find the remains.

A friend of the family left his (might have been hers both were retired Sheriffs) service weapon out for his wife. She was in terminal cancer and in horrendous pain, and the morphine wasn't cutting it anymore.  She asked him if he would let her clean it while he went to the store.  He may have actually committed suicide in his own way a few weeks ago.  He had alzheimers really bad and knew he was in dementia, didn't recognize anybody or anything. Just stopped eating.  He'ld been one of Darby's Rangers and had always been a physivally active man.  Being helpless must have been hell.

My Dad was the PIO (in effect) when a famous industrial designer ( many of you would recognize the name) and his wife who lived in town killed themselves.  He basically, at the request of the family was the poc with the media, and the New York media were terrible in their pursuit of the inside story.    The official story was they both died in their sleep the same night.  She was terminal cancer and he was getting very frail.  Both in the upper 80's or low 90's. Married 60+ years, decided they wanted to stay together and not risk getting separated.  Went out to the garage, shut the door started the car, reclined the seats and went together holding hands.  All in all, kind of touching.

Sometimes Suicide seems to be the only Rational Solution to pain.
And when you are suffering tremendous mental anguish: stopping the pain is all you can think about. As to what the cause of the pain is, it is manifold.

And you are absolutely convinced that the world is better off without you.
Most people who commit suicide have a plan on how they are going to do it. The manner in which they commit suicide is frequently a matter of style and is a statement in itself.
They think about it a great deal, and refine their plans. Sometimes they care enough to put all of their affairs in order (paying off bills, throwing out or giving away items, writing a will, even making funeral arrangements).

Women are more likely to feel suicidal, but Men are more likely to carry it out successfully.

ie. Guys, when you are feeling REALLY depressed and are having trouble sleeping, trouble thinking, loosing weight, and are feeling lethargic for more than 2 weeks, Check yourself in to a shrink and get on some Anti-Depressants.

Quoted: Sometimes Suicide seems to be the only Rational Solution to pain. And when you are suffering tremendous mental anguish: stopping the pain is all you can think about. As to what the cause of the pain is, it is manifold. And you are absolutely convinced that the world is better off without you. Most people who commit suicide have a plan on how they are going to do it. The manner in which they commit suicide is frequently a matter of style and is a statement in itself. They think about it a great deal, and refine their plans. Sometimes they care enough to put all of their affairs in order (paying off bills, throwing out or giving away items, writing a will, even making funeral arrangements). Women are more likely to feel suicidal, but Men are more likely to carry it out successfully. ie. Guys, when you are feeling REALLY depressed and are having trouble sleeping, trouble thinking, loosing weight, and are feeling lethargic for more than 2 weeks, Check yourself in to a shrink and get on some Anti-Depressants.

All the Anti-Depressants in the world can't take away the pain in your heart. My dad spread his to the rest of us, when he splattered his brains across the cieling.

Quoted: Quoted: Sometimes Suicide seems to be the only Rational Solution to pain. And when you are suffering tremendous mental anguish: stopping the pain is all you can think about. As to what the cause of the pain is, it is manifold. And you are absolutely convinced that the world is better off without you. Most people who commit suicide have a plan on how they are going to do it. The manner in which they commit suicide is frequently a matter of style and is a statement in itself. They think about it a great deal, and refine their plans. Sometimes they care enough to put all of their affairs in order (paying off bills, throwing out or giving away items, writing a will, even making funeral arrangements). Women are more likely to feel suicidal, but Men are more likely to carry it out successfully. ie. Guys, when you are feeling REALLY depressed and are having trouble sleeping, trouble thinking, loosing weight, and are feeling lethargic for more than 2 weeks, Check yourself in to a shrink and get on some Anti-Depressants. All the Anti-Depressants in the world can't take away the pain in your heart. My dad spread his to the rest of us, when he splattered his brains across the cieling.

This is true to a certain extent.  A lot of depressed people are unable function and dont even have the will to kill themselves.  Many times the antidepressant is the crutch they need to finish the job.  They actually get some energy and will power to do themselves in.  All the cases of Prozac causing suicides is an example.  I dont think it was the drug but more the persons true desire.  The prozac merely allowed the person to complete the act.

But it is true mental illness can rarely be fully treated with just medications.

This is what I've read and heard about meds and depression.  When the person seems like they are doing better is when you need to watch them more closely as they often don't have the motiviation to do anything, much less commit suicide.  The meds give them just enough of a lift that they will put forth the effort.  Once they can get past that point, with meds and therapy they can sucessfully deal with their disease.

Quoted: But it is true mental illness can rarely be fully treated with just medications.

For sure.  At least not appropriately.

For others,: The idea that this is simply due to the lack of certain neurotransmitters in the syapses is horseshit.  You might be able to flood the synapse with certain neurotransmitters and make people feel better, or function better but it does not get at the underlying problem.  It does sell drugs though.  "Happy pills".

The question that should be asked is why is there a lack of these neurotransmitters in the synapse in the first place?

Quoted: Quoted: But it is true mental illness can rarely be fully treated with just medications. For sure.  At least not appropriately. For others,: The idea that this is simply due to the lack of certain neurotransmitters in the syapses is horseshit.  You might be able to flood the synapse with certain neurotransmitters and make people feel better, or function better but it does not get at the underlying problem.  It does sell drugs though.  "Happy pills". The question that should be asked is why is there a lack of these neurotransmitters in the synapse in the first place?

i think the dr is correct here.  treating depression by acting on neurotransmitters is really only dealing with a proximate cause.  Ultimate causes usually appeal to genes and the environment for all behavior.  Gene therapy is still far away, but psychotherapy can be successful in changing someone's environmental history (at least from the point of therapy).

For those who don't believe in the environmental causes of depression,  I suggest googling the learned helplessness studies that began with Martin Seligman.  His and other's  work showed how easily depression could be induced.  In fact,  most of the drugs used today were first tested on . animals who had ther depression induced envioronmentally.