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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:16:03 AM EDT
[#1]
Until YOU determine otherwise? And just who gave you the authority to determine whether or not someone is a "badguy"? I think that fuckin' went to your head.
But is is both normal and reasonable to expect someone to read the article in the thread and the associated posts. If you had done so, then you would know that the person who was host did not run from the police in or out of a car. The person who was shot was a PASSENGER in a speeding vehicle and unlike the driver DID NOT run from the police when the car finally did pull over. He was shot for cooperating and complying with the police.
You didn't call this man a suspect, you called him a badguy...even though both of the articles show that he didn't do a damn thing wrong.
No it doesn't. However, having video which shows you complying with a police officer's instructions before being shot without cause for simply being a passenger in a car that was speeding generally is enough to exempt someone from being a "badguy". No, the bad guy in this case wears a is the cop who shot an unarmed person for complying with the officer's instructions. The Blue Code will protect him, but the fact of the matter is that there is video of the public servant attempting to murder a "suspect" who was offering no resistence. He's the badguy! |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:16:26 AM EDT
[#2]
If first reports out of the media are to be believed, then the majority of you "the cop should fry" people must believe that the cop, in essence, executed this guy. He was just laying there, right? Not getting up fast enough so Johnny Law smoked him, right? Maybe it's the decent human being in me, but I have a hard time buying that. Anything is possible, maybe Johnny Law in this case is a true sociopath or something, but I highly doubt it.
Call me an apologist, or another brick in the blue wall, but how can judge an event without having been there? Or at minimum heard ALL sides of the story and compared that with the physical evidence and looked at it all in the context in which it actually occurred (at the end of a 100 MPH car chase)? That is precisely why the majority of you would not make for very good cops, you're too quick to jump to conclusions. My opinion? Not that any of you care, but I'll wait and see what the investigation reveals. Maybe Johnny Law made a mistake, maybe he was justified, and maybe, just maybe, he's a murdering bastard that deserves to get put away. I don't know, I wasn't there. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:19:00 AM EDT
[#3]
I dare you to go up to any Army MP anywhere in the world and call him an "SP like" person. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:26:55 AM EDT
[#4]
I thought he was the driver and the passenger ran. Regardless he gets cuffed until I find out what is going on. I still don't see the cop just shooting him. However if he did I will be the first to say he needs to be charged with whatever crime fits. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:27:43 AM EDT
[#5]
Were the police chasing also? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:31:00 AM EDT
[#6]
I'm wondering how much an adrenaline rush has to do with this? I could see something like that effecting the officer's reaction. 100mph chase, lights, sirens, driver flees, it's dark, there's plenty to be pumped up about. Maybe he saw something he thought was a weapon and the adrenaline rush got the better of him? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:32:57 AM EDT
[#7]
What he said. Need more info. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:33:43 AM EDT
[#8]
In Iraq, MP's are more hated than insurgents. I dont really care what they think. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:36:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Yes  but the driver stopped after "a brief chase" WTF does that have to do with anything I was not in control of the vehicle I was a passenger and I was not a driver ED instructor OH well atleast all the LEO made it home safely |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:36:40 AM EDT
[#10]
History usually proves only one group wise, but there are not many students of history these days. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:44:13 AM EDT
[#11]
What I'm struggling with is the safety issue of devoting all your attention to the guy who didn't run. 100% of your concentration is concentrated on a guy who's proned out............. where's the other guy? Off to the races, or behind you with a gun in your ear? There's gotta be more than this: not saying it'll exonerate the officer, and not saying it'll crucify him. Just that there's gotta be something more. But like I said above, I'm waiting for more info before pronouncing/declaring one way or the other. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:44:46 AM EDT
[#12]
Even if it was justified, why would he shoot him 3 times?
Maybe I am old fashioned, but I always thought cops were supposed to shoot only as a last resort, and only the minimum amount of force required.. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:46:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Unless the car had dual controls like an airplane, what in the pluperfect hell would make the passenger a suspect? Suspected of what ? Bad taste in associates?
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:48:38 AM EDT
[#14]
To be quite honest, once the first shot is fired, your average person doesn't sit and wait for some sign the other person has been "stopped." They keep shooting. You can blame it on training, ie double-taps, hammers, etc, as some do. Or you can blame it on TV and the movies. When they show someone shot they go flying through the plate-glass window, so most people don't realize that one shot won't know a person backwards five feet and they perceive that lack of a "knock down" as a failure to stop and continue to shoot. What ever the case may be, most people will fire off more than one shot in a very short amount of time. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:48:58 AM EDT
[#15]
You're right....neither does being a cop Waiting for more info but, there would half to be some really big pieces of infomation absent for this to be a good shoot. Bomber PS It's also not clear that it was a 100mph chase and not a case of reckless speeding. The 2 articles seem to be in conflict with one another. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:52:58 AM EDT
[#16]
tag
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:54:32 AM EDT
[#17]
 The cops are issued pansy 9mm bullets. Heck, the perp is still alive! You ought to shoot a perp at least 3 times anyway. Maybe the USAF should put out a Powerpoint presentation on how to pick a better designated driver. I'm putting the blame on the driver. He's the one who is really at fault. And kudos to the cop for his accuracy. He put multiple shots on target, at night, with distracting noise/lights, after a high-speed chase with an accident, while worrying about a second perp on the run. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:55:42 AM EDT
[#18]
Was the MP/SF wearing roller skates and a black mini-skirt?
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:58:24 AM EDT
[#19]
tag
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Posted: 1/31/2006 11:58:42 AM EDT
[#20]
I hope the victim has a good lawyer and recovers quickly so he can start looking for a new house, new car, hookers, and blow. It doesn't sound good for San Berdoo cops. A friend of the family is a rookie there. Gotta hope it wasn't him.  Cop could have had a ND, and didn't realize it, thinking the bad guy had fired, and then busted off two more.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:06:22 PM EDT
[#21]
FLAL1A...as an attorney (you are an attorney, right?), you know better than that. The post I quoted above just reeks of you trying inflame the debate. You know damn well that passengers in a car that flees from the police are going to be detained (with force if necessary) until the reason for the chase can be determined. Oh, and....If the airman had no role in any crime, then yes, he does have bad taste in associates. Not that he deserved getting shot for it.... |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:12:40 PM EDT
[#22]
I reserve judgement till I see the video in question and if possible the dash cam video from the cruiser.
Given what's been said here it sounds bad for the officer. I'd like to think that it was a good shoot... but not having been there I can't say. I know that this sort of thing REALLY makes the law enforcement community look bad, and members of that community coming on and talking poorly about the suspect who's been shot when THEY don't know the facts only adds to the aura of police complicity. That's all. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:20:56 PM EDT
[#23]
You are using too much common sense. That is not allowed in GD, please stop. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:24:43 PM EDT
[#24]
Yet another link. LINK TO KTLA
Interesting, witnesses heard someone shouting "GET DOWN" but the video shows someone saying "Get up"? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:24:57 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.... 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:31:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Well, if you assuming the cop isn't a shitbag, it would almost have to be an ND. But given the transcript of the video, the only thing I can think of is that maybe the perp was "non-compliant, and started to come at me"! And yes, I did read the part about the cop telling him to "get up". They NEVER do that!!! Oops....what's that camera? Oh shit! 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:35:29 PM EDT
[#27]
That sounds wild enough that I would believe it. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:40:40 PM EDT
[#28]
From the KILA link:
"The videotape, shot by Chino resident Jose Luis Valdes, shows Carrion sprawled on the ground and repeatedly telling the deputy, "I'm on your side." The deputy then seems to shout, "Get up!" after which Carrion appears to lean forward. "I'm going to get up, all right?" he says. The deputy then fires his gun three or four times from about five feet away. "Shut … up, you don't get up …!" he shouts. Moaning in pain, Carrion responds: "You told me to get up." The deputy then radioed in to dispatch that shots had been fired. It is unclear from the grainy tape whether there was anything in Carrion's movements that provoked the deputy to fire his weapon." Wow, that is fucked up. Sounds like the deputy was very unstable and barely functioning to me. "Shots fired". How vague. So, shitloads of cops come swarming looking for a bad guy shooting at a cop. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:41:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Take into account the adrenaline, I wouldn't be surprised at all. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:43:46 PM EDT
[#30]
I need to see this video. I'm hearing that KTLA news has the video and is not releasing it to the other media. My buddies have seen it on TV, and I can't find it streamed on the internet yet.
This sounds real bad for the deputy.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 12:43:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Air Force Security Forces members are NOT security guards. They provide security and response forces for Air Force assets in ADDITION to being military police on Air Force installations. They are also trained as light infantry...tell the guys providing convoy security in Iraq that they are nothing but "security guards". I'm an active duty AF mechanic and I don't usually stand up for the SF. Please, if you are not AF and have no idea of which you speak, be quiet.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:16:23 PM EDT
[#32]
It is not possible for the airman to have been a participant in any offense of which the officer had knowledge. He cannot have been anything more than a witness to any such offense. Proning a witnesses out at gun point is unreasonable, no matter how commonly it may be done. Up to the point the airman was detained, the officer had knowledge of (1) speeding; (2) (presumably) felony fleeing; (3) leaving the scene of an accident; (4) resisting without violence (when the driver fled on foot). Again, it is absolutely impossible for the airman to have been a participant in any of those offenses. Detaining people at gunpoint until one is satisfied that they've done nothing wrong, when one has no basis to suspect that they have committed any identifiable offense, isn't the American way. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:31:29 PM EDT
[#33]
WTF over? Sounds a lot worse for the guy he attempted to murder. Edited to add: I wonder if Carreon has been arraigned on charges like resisting arrest yet. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:43:48 PM EDT
[#34]
Sounds real bad=looks like he's losing his job and going to jail. I feel bad for the Airman he shot as well. It's just that this deputy went to work trying to enforce the law, and now he's on the ass end of the system. It appears at this point that it's 100% his fault. Hopefully the Airman will make a full recovery; the deputy never will. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:43:48 PM EDT
[#35]
.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:44:23 PM EDT
[#36]
wow, that sucks. without seeing the video or being there, it sure sounds bad for the dep.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:47:47 PM EDT
[#37]
sounds a little worse for the airman, don't you think? He must have been wearing roller skates, its the only plausible explanation. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:49:36 PM EDT
[#38]
The problem is that SCOTUS has held that passengers can be temporarily detained even in routine traffic stops. Since the driver has exhibited such dangerous behavior in his attempt to evade police, he is treated in a fashion that renders him as inert as possible - he gets proned out. Now, how does the officer segregate the passenger and treat him differently in the heat of the moment? Not so easy as it would seem. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:02:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Telling the passenger to get up and shooting him when he does is completely unjustifiable and should result in termination and attempted murder charges being filed. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:11:49 PM EDT
[#40]
If the circumstances turn out consistent with the way they look right now, that's exactly what should happen.
IF he's on the ass end of the system it's not because of cruel evil world...it's because he went from being a guy trying to enforce the law to a guy trying to commit one of the most grievance offenses we have (murder). And, lets be clear, shooting a guy three times that you just ordered to stand, absent any extenuating circumstances by the suspect, is attempted murder. It's not one of those life changing "mistakes". It's an act of unadulterated evil. Shooting down a compliant individual. It's made all the more grievous by being done by a person charged to serve the law.
Getting shot 3 times with JHP's and making a full recovery aren't things that go together well. At the very least, this guy will have months and months of rehab ahead of him...and that's the best case scenario, assuming none of his major organs weren't seriously damaged and he's not dealing with a situation like a damaged liver or shot out kidney, or a broken fibula that never heals right. The deputy, hopefully, will have to face the consequences of his actions. Unfortunately, it Carreon does as well. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:22:54 PM EDT
[#41]
I'm sure the other officers in the chase went after the runner. But then maybe the cop was just fat.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:24:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Very possible. Remember the video of the female cop that almost shot the "badguy"  on the ground.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:27:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Yep, everyone in the car is suspect until it gets sorted out. I have proned out and cuffed cops before because they were in plainclothes and I didn't know them. Anyone can get a badge nowdays. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:28:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Let me be perfectly clear: As it stands now, it appears that the deputy engaged in a bad shooting - a criminal act. Nothing less should have been gleaned from my prior statements here.
An important factor is the deputy's state of mind at the moment he decided to shoot. Did the suspect do something unexpected and/or against what he was told to do? Did he produce or attempt to produce a weapon? Was he a threat to the deputy or another's life at that moment? If he believes that the Airman was a threat, he better have a reasonable (to the standard of a trained police officer) explanation. Given the preliminary information we have now, I don't see how he could. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:34:27 PM EDT
[#45]
There are no winners in this story...
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:41:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Isn't that always how it ends? 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:46:39 PM EDT
[#47]
A 'bad guy'.... pfttt! I got ticked for doing 134MPH once... does that make me the Devil Incarnate? ANdy |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:48:35 PM EDT
[#48]
A "suspect" is a person who is suspected of having done something. If everyone in the car is a suspect until the officer knows otherwise, of what is he suspected, given that every crime of which the officer has any knowledge was necessarily committed by someone other than the "suspect?" Come on, guys. On the information we have, fill in the blank for me:
I held the passenger at gunpoint because I suspected him of _____________________. Most of the passengers who get treated like dirt in a stop like this - despite the lack of any basis to suspect them of identifiable wrongdoing - are either actual dirtbags or are not in a position to do anything about their treatment, which I imagine accounts for the attitude we're seeing in this thread. This officer, following precisely the "logic" urged by some posters in this thread, did a great job. The one person he knew had committed crimes got away, and the one person he knew hadn't committed any crimes in his presence got shot to shit. That is where "they're all 'suspects,' even those as to whom I lack even a reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing" leads. What right does one man have to point a gun at another if he cannot name a criminal act he reasonably suspects the pointee to have committed? None. It's pure, stupid power on parade. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:56:40 PM EDT
[#49]
I don't think I could add a word........ Bomber |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:57:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Guy is shot by a cop. Guy is not a criminal, is in fact AF Security Forces. Guy was, as far as has been shown, complying with the cop. Video of incident disapears - has been snatched up by the PD investigators. If the video exonerated the cop, don't you think it would be shown? Hysteria...right. 
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