Does the World have a Right to foreclose on a bankrupt United States? - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does the World have a Right to foreclose on a bankrupt United States? (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:03:30 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
UH, how come the sum of the US and Brits is more than the world total?

I still find this funny 8,837,000,000,000 + 7,107,000,000,000 != 12,700,000,000,000

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:05:53 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Let them try to foreclose on me...

Molon Labe!

Funny, if it were a PERSONAL debt, most folks here think you should be honorable and pay the debt.

When it's our countries debt, we have a "fuck them" attitude.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:12:27 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

I can cite legal authority for the proposition that a creditor cannot take legal action against a debtor who has not breached his obligations relative to agreements with his creditors. Legally speaking, I am unaware of any authority that would suggest that the proposed contingency is even a remote possibility.

I assume you are an attorney. You know I can file suit for any damned made up shit I want.
What we are talking about is default. Hence the apple/orange thing.
Of course you can't take action against someone who hasn't breached their obligations.......that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

As a practical matter, I suppose that nothing prohibits the Sultan of Umbabamaumau from crying to some purported world judicial authority and said authority issuing some absurd proclamation wholly unsupported in law. Then the question then becomes one of practicality. Obviously, I'm not qualified to speak on the topic of a U.N. invasion for the pruposes of debt enforcement. I'm no history professor so I'm having a tough time coming up with modern examples that would suggest that such a possiblity is anything more than unfounded postulation.

The US has never defaulted on a loan payment....so there could be no history.

This discussion is about if the US did default. What would happen?

As we all know, however, the U.N. is largely impotent when dealing with ANY nation that flouts U.N. authority. I would, however, suggest that debt enforcement need not take such a radical form. The United States has assets abroad in many forms. I would suggest that sanctions and seizure of assets abroad would come long before any fanciful invasion and fencing off of the oil fields in Texas as part of some fairytale foreclosure. I think that such a discussion is patently absurd. With that, I will show myself out.

I agree.
Except I think the discussion was funny to see how people think about our sovereignty.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:16:36 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Let them try to foreclose on me...

Molon Labe!

Funny, if it were a PERSONAL debt, most folks here think you should be honorable and pay the debt.

When it's our countries debt, we have a "fuck them" attitude.

I don't think it is funny. I also don't think ANYONE can take our damned country no matter how much we owe. Lending to a country and a person are different to me.

I think we should pay and we do pay. If something happens and we default, this country will not be a part of China, just because we owed them money.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:21:35 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:

. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!

Really, why does it take appox. 15% of the .gov income to pay the interest on the debt......that you think doesn't even exist.

Quoted:
Quoted:

YOUR ANALOGY IS WRONG IN THIS CASE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEBT AS IN CREDIT CARDS. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!

What the HELL are you talking about?

We BORROW money to finance our budget deficit by issuing BONDS. These bonds pay INTEREST.
'

What are these "Reserves" you speak of? Raiding Social Security? That pot is drying up.

Our "Federal Reserve" is neither Federal, nor a Reserve.

Our "Reserves" are comprised of a checkbook where we make up money from thin air.

Debt accrues interest.
"Budget Deficit" does not.

Do not lump the two together. Yes they are somewhat tied to it. You borrow to bring the deficit down. But the deficit itself does not accrue interest. The debt incurred to pay down the deficit does. Incidently the Gov't just instituted a large buy back of its higher interest debt and refinanced it with lower interest debt. I don't have the figures on hand, but the savings is quite significant.

Reserves as in Treasury reserves.

Yes the deficit is high. Yes spending needs to be curved. But countries calling our debt, not likely. Bankruptcy, not likely. Our economies are now tied to each other due to global import/export. It is not like in the 1500 where every country did not trade with another country. If Germany calls our debt, we may call Japan's debt to us. They Japan will call Englands debt. Which will in turn call Germany's debt. Can you imagine the chaos this will cause. The currency markets alone would go into a tailspin. Every country in the world now owes some other country money. Wether or not their reserves can handle that, is another question. Some coutries GDP does not even begin to match its debt. If every country out there starts calling debts.......

One thing our country is good at is refinancing debt.

Why do you guys think the US Treasury bonds are the most sought after security in the world??? Its not cause we can't manage out money.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:25:51 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You know when you start your on personal budget.
Let's say you budget $10 a day for lunch or $50 a week.
One day, you spent $12 or for that week you spent $52
You are now running $2 deficit on your budget. So you need to curve your spending next week. If you don't this deficit continues.
Now this is YOUR budget. Not what you can afford.

Poor analogy.

Try this one:

Your Income is $40000 take home per year

Your budget is $40000 take home per year

You spent $440000 last year, putting $4000 on credit cards

You spend $470000 this year, putting $7000 on credit cards

with interest, you are now $15867 in debt.

You continue this, year after year........

OK Let me make this clear.

DEFICIT IS NOT DEBT!!!
CREDITS CARDS ARE DEBT!!!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A BUDGET DEFICIT!!!

THE COUNTRY MADE A BUDGET AND NOT STICKING TO IT!!! IT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF MONEY!!

THERE ARE RESERVES!!

US DEBT IS FIGURED IN DIFFERENTLY.

YOUR ANALOGY IS WRONG IN THIS CASE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEBT AS IN CREDIT CARDS. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!

lordtrader I don't know why you bother to enlighten some of these guys, the chicken littles on this board will continue to scream the sky is falling no matter how much factual info you put out there.

The only reason to debunk the tin foil hat crowd is to stop snow balls form turning into avalanches.

If you scream loud enough and often enough that the sky is falling they just might make it happen form perception.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:27:08 AM EDT

[#7]

The US Government has been bankrupt for a long time:

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies . . . If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.

-Thomas Jefferson

Speaker-Rep. James Traficant, Jr. (Ohio) addressing the House:

"Mr. Speaker, we are here now in chapter 11.. Members of Congress are
official trustees presiding over the greatest reorganization of any Bankrupt
entity in world history, the U.S. Government. We are setting forth
hopefully, a blueprint for our future. There are some who say it is a
coroner's report that will lead to our demise.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:29:09 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Maybe we can get Bono to stump for us. Please, they are so broke, please forgive their debt....

not holding my breath.

TXL

...or Celine Dion.

"Dem Americans, dey are so poor! Dey are so American! Let dem touch dose things!"

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:42:46 AM EDT

[#9]

According to my econ professor budget deficits reduce national savings. This reduces domestic investment and means we depend on foriegn investment to keep our production growth in keeping with our population growth. This is all fine and good until that foriegn investment stops comming (there is a better opportunity elsewhere). Then we are fucked and our standard of livng will fall.

This problem could be fixed by:

Balancing the budget
Increasing private domestic savings (eliminate things like social security and welfare)
Ensuring we never become a bad investment

I say we do all three, but the first two are a lot easier to put into practice.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:54:28 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

I assume you are an attorney. You know I can file suit for any damned made up shit I want.
What we are talking about is default. Hence the apple/orange thing.
Of course you can't take action against someone who hasn't breached their obligations.......that is not what we are talking about and you know it.

The WTO would probably be the international agency that making the USA pay back loans would fall to.

Posted: 1/27/2006 7:56:12 AM EDT

[#11]

They will never "call in" the money the United States owe them.

The problem will arise when the rest of the nations simply stop lending us money. In some countries that is already starting to happen.

At that point the federal government will either curb its spending or print more money. I'm betting it will just print more money. And then we are well and truly screwed.

Posted: 1/27/2006 8:03:22 AM EDT

[#12]

Foreclosing is one thing. Collecting is another.

Posted: 1/27/2006 8:03:27 AM EDT

[#13]

If this happens I only ask that the world have the UN do the repo portion.

Posted: 1/27/2006 8:06:00 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You know when you start your on personal budget.
Let's say you budget $10 a day for lunch or $50 a week.
One day, you spent $12 or for that week you spent $52
You are now running $2 deficit on your budget. So you need to curve your spending next week. If you don't this deficit continues.
Now this is YOUR budget. Not what you can afford.

Poor analogy.

Try this one:

Your Income is $40000 take home per year

Your budget is $40000 take home per year

You spent $440000 last year, putting $4000 on credit cards

You spend $470000 this year, putting $7000 on credit cards

with interest, you are now $15867 in debt.

You continue this, year after year........

OK Let me make this clear.

DEFICIT IS NOT DEBT!!!
CREDITS CARDS ARE DEBT!!!

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A BUDGET DEFICIT!!!

THE COUNTRY MADE A BUDGET AND NOT STICKING TO IT!!! IT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF MONEY!!

THERE ARE RESERVES!!

US DEBT IS FIGURED IN DIFFERENTLY.

YOUR ANALOGY IS WRONG IN THIS CASE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEBT AS IN CREDIT CARDS. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!

lordtrader I don't know why you bother to enlighten some of these guys, the chicken littles on this board will continue to scream the sky is falling no matter how much factual info you put out there.

The only reason to debunk the tin foil hat crowd is to stop snow balls form turning into avalanches.

If you scream loud enough and often enough that the sky is falling they just might make it happen form perception.

OMG, it is a hypothetical question.

But to think that the budget deficit doesn't eventually turn to debt is......Hell there isn't a word that is that dumb in the dictionary.

Posted: 1/27/2006 8:11:05 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
They will never "call in" the money the United States owe them.

The problem will arise when the rest of the nations simply stop lending us money. In some countries that is already starting to happen.

At that point the federal government will either curb its spending or print more money. I'm betting it will just print more money. And then we are well and truly screwed.

Even our government isn't that stupid, unless they take it out of the hands of the federal reserve and congress starts making decisions...

Posted: 1/27/2006 8:24:57 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

OMG, it is a hypothetical question.

But to think that the budget deficit doesn't eventually turn to debt is......Hell there isn't a word that is that dumb in the dictionary.

Well there is a word but it might not be in the dictionary.

krpind:
One who laughs like a hyena.
One who is wrong when it comes to financial matters.

Posted: 1/27/2006 9:45:24 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

One who is wrong when it comes to financial matters.

So you believe that deficit spending has no bearing on the United States' debt?

[By answering yes, you will be agreeing that spending more money than the government collects from all sources of revenue, will not incur any, or increase the national debt in any way.]

I just want to ask this in the most specific way possible.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:00:18 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Our federal deficit is the largest in the world - $ 8,191,856,566,874

Our Trade imbalance is projected to reach $337,000,000,000 this year

According to the CIA, we represent 70% of the World's debt:

Rank Country Debt - external

Date of Information 30 June 2005 est.

1 World $ 12,700,000,000,000 2004 est.

2 United States $ 8,837,000,000,000

3 United Kingdom $ 7,107,000,000,000

America has become more debt-dependent - - than ever before with total debt of $40 trillion, or $136,479 per man, woman and child

How long can the party last? Don't know - but at some point, the United States is bankrupt if we can't change course.

IF we do go insolvent, does the World have a Right to foreclose? What would that entail? Seizing US assets? Sending in troops to repo our country?

mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/natdebt-vs-natincome.gif

Rather sad to see England, a quarter of our population listed as #3.

The way I see it, following the big housing boom, everyone sell their homes and payoff their $137k. Then repurchase their homes back since the housing market would have collapsed.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:08:55 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Foreclosing is one thing. Collecting is another.

No problem, we can repay our debt in less than 18 minutes.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:30:00 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

OMG, it is a hypothetical question.

But to think that the budget deficit doesn't eventually turn to debt is......Hell there isn't a word that is that dumb in the dictionary.

Yes there is correlation with regards to debt and deficit. As I have mentioned debt is sometimes issued to pay down deficit. However, as I believe freepster posted somewhere on this thread, there are other ways of bringing down the deficit. Receivables can also bring down the deficit. In the case of the gov't receivables are taxes and loans paid to us. Restructuring spending will also bring down deficit without incurring debt. Clinton did this effectively while in office. However, we now know that it came at a high cost to our military and intelligence departments.

But we are talking about "deficit" here bankrupting the US. Not likely.

In the case of my anology:

If you budgeted $10 for lunch, but spent $12. You may want to spend $2 less on your dinner budget. That will balance your $2 deficit incurred during lunch without incurring debt.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:37:12 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

The way I see it, following the big housing boom, everyone sell their homes and payoff their $137k. Then repurchase their homes back since the housing market would have collapsed.

If everyone is selling who is buying?

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:45:39 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:

The way I see it, following the big housing boom, everyone sell their homes and payoff their $137k. Then repurchase their homes back since the housing market would have collapsed.

If everyone is selling who is buying?

Oops... that put that baby to bed before it had a chance to cry.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:54:51 AM EDT

[#23]

I think this was covered in a threat along the lines of "US vs. the rest of the world combined".

For the sake of the argument, suppose EVERYONE decided to foreclose on us and agreed to divide the spoils according to whereever their invading armies stood when the last American surrendered.
(Thereby awarding the most aggressive with the biggest piece of real estate).

If this happened, our first act would probably be to invade Canada so as to hold that piece of real estate down. We'd probably do it with the National Guard and SOF as their SOF is pretty darn good.

Then we'd place the bulk of our regular army on the Southern frontier while the Navy and Airforce sinks every piece of military hardware afloat and destroy anything that can fly around the world.

Since virtually the entire 3rd world can't produce their own goods especially advanced goods, we don't have to worry about them....for a while.

But while we could hold the line along the south for a long time, and the navy could keep torpedoing any ships that get launched for a long time, the domestic economy would be a wreck. And only full ww2 style mobilization would give us the wherewithall to quadruple the size of our armed forces so as to occupy S.America (for it's oil & resources as well as Panama Canal), establish beach heads in Africa, Asia, and Euasia etc so as to keep the fight over there and the would-be evil allies rocked back on their heels.

But in the end it would go nuclear and then we'd all be rooting for grubs and worms.

But legally....no the world can't foreclose on us.

Posted: 1/27/2006 10:56:55 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:
has anyone ever heard of the balance of payments (BOP) account? yeah we have a large "trade" deficit.... also known as the US "current account" what do we know about the "capital" account, though?

if the trade deficit happened to be overwhelming our economy, our currency rates would be falling faster than zimbabwe's after expropriation
-----------------

sure, our trade deficit is large, but even though we are a net importer of goods (a deficit balance in the trade account), we also have a surplus in foreign investment to offset the trade deficit.

-just an opinion, what do ya'll think?

Rank Order - Current account balance

CIA World Fact Book

1 Japan $ 158,300,000,000 2005 est.

2 China $ 129,100,000,000 2005 est.

3 Germany $ 119,800,000,000 2005 est.

149 United States $ -829,100,000,000 2005 est.

This right there should tell you that it is all funny math. Notice that Nos. 1 and 3 currently have economies that are in the shitter, and No. 2 is still in many respects a third world nation. The true measure of wealth is GDP, where the US is tops. More importantly, the only way the debt is going to sink the economy is if we increase our tax burden so much to support the annual interest payments that we chase industry away. Now, we certainly have too high a tax burden, but it is nowhere near the burden of a France or Germany or Japan, because we don't waste as much money on bums. Historically, our debt is much lower than during WWI or WWII, and we didn't go bankrupt then either.

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:07:42 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/natdebt-vs-natincome.gif

Keep that picture in mind next time some idiot claims the US "is the richest nation on earth" and therefore we should all be taxed to the hilt for free healthcare or whatever.

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:16:51 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Our debt still only represents less than 1/3 of our GNP.

According to CSpan -

- USA GNP is 11.7 trillion dollars per year.
- USA National debt is over 8 trillion dollars.

How do you come up with less than 1/3? More like we have a 2/3's ratio of our National debt to GNP.

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:22:41 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Yes there is correlation with regards to debt and deficit. As I have mentioned debt is sometimes issued to pay down deficit. However, as I believe freepster posted somewhere on this thread, there are other ways of bringing down the deficit. Receivables can also bring down the deficit. In the case of the gov't receivables are taxes and loans paid to us. Restructuring spending will also bring down deficit without incurring debt. Clinton did this effectively while in office. However, we now know that it came at a high cost to our military and intelligence departments.

I agree, except the recievables are already counted before the deficit is incurred.
The fact is, the definition of deficit for all practical purposes in this context should be the difference in the amount of revenue the .gov expects to recieve in a fiscal year vs. the amount the .gov budgets to spend.

Compounding this deficit is the fact that the budget makers have historically overstated (or are overly optimistic, depending on your point of view) revenue for the coming year.

But we are talking about "deficit" here bankrupting the US. Not likely.

Again I agree.
BUT IF THE US defaults could a "lein holder" foreclose and take over our country.
I say no way.

In the case of my anology:

If you budgeted $10 for lunch, but spent $12. You may want to spend $2 less on your dinner budget. That will balance your $2 deficit incurred during lunch without incurring debt.

Your analogy still sucks.

A closer analogy would be....

You budgeted $10 dollars for lunch because you expected to get $70 for a week.
You spend $12 so you are going to be short $14, you think.
You only get $65 instead of $70
So now you are going in the hole $19 every week, just on lunch.
You decide that you will continue eating a great lunch, so you cut back on dinner. Well this pisses your wife off. She likes eating good so she decides if you don't start feeding her better, she will replace you with someone that will feed her better. Since you are getting the $65 from her you're are in a pretty good bind.
Well this leaves you with a choice to make to risk gtting "thrown out of office" or do you go to the bank to borrow enough money to continue feeding your wife.

I think mine sums it up pretty well.

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:25:39 AM EDT

[#28]

I'll worry when the White House starts getting angry collection agency calls.

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:34:53 AM EDT

[#29]

I wish they would sometimes.

Times would be hard for a while but at least we would be a stand on our own country again.

Those who think buying foriegn goods over American puts Americans to work are idiots for money going out is still not money being kept and distribution does not employ as much as manufacturing.

Tj

Posted: 1/27/2006 11:51:36 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Short of threatening to nuke the rest of the planet

Bingo. This is why they can't. Although they would like to.

I say we forgive the 3rd world's debt like Bono wants. The condition is the rest of the world's debts are forgiven too.

VIOLA. no debt anywhere. Happy Bono?

Posted: 1/27/2006 12:30:11 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Don't worry -- If they did that, they'd have to take their hands out of our pockets first.

Bing!!!!!!!!! Bing!!!!!!!!! we have a winner.

Posted: 1/28/2006 12:17:26 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
A foreclosure requires a sheriff. We are the sheriff.

Also, all of our debts are in dollars. We can always print more money to pay those debts (at the cost of some inflation). It is like lending money to Hasbro, and allowing Hasbro to pay you back in Monopoly money.

+1

Also, "The Economist", in one of the most recent two issues, has a good article about the "dark matter" of U.S. corporate assets abroad. While other countries own our debt, we own capital assets worldwide. The economists who discussed this (in a paper that the article referred to) seem to think that this offsetting of the increasing debt is why our trade imbalance hasn't thrown us into turmoil already.

Posted: 1/28/2006 12:21:28 AM EDT

[#33]

nm

Posted: 1/28/2006 12:42:19 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.

+1 and we should own France and Germany by now

France? Why, we have indoor plumbing and besides, hopping on a plane just to go drop a stool is too impractical.

Posted: 1/28/2006 1:01:43 AM EDT

[#35]

which country would foreclose on us? Perhaps some of the dozen countries for whom we wrote off their debts to us?
I don't believe those statistics...just like Clinton's surplus which was total conjecture on paper if only...
If we quit buying from all the countries that are complaining, they are the ones who would go out of business...

Posted: 1/28/2006 1:37:22 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Yeah, but look at the Brits, per capita. I'll have my portion of the US debt paid off 234 years before Vito will his.

UH, how come the sum of the US and Brits is more than the world total?

Because we both wip the world's ass

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Does the World have a Right to foreclose on a bankrupt United States? (Page 2 of 2)

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