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Posted: 1/22/2006 4:07:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 4:08:55 PM EDT by Roland_O_Gilead]
I woke early this morning to head to the dojang because our head instructor was giving a seminar on gun defense (and defending yourself via other means when you have a gun). We had blue plastic Glocks and belt slide holsters to start with. Everyone there had shot before although I would venture a guess I was the most experience student in the room

In the first exercise we divided into two groups: shooting and striking. We all stood in a line facing BOBs (anatomically correct rubber targets on a 150 lb base) and each attacked at the signal given out group. Everyone striking was able to land a very strong strike well before the shooting group could clear their holster and get the target behind the barrel. This was even true when the striking group would deliver a kick strong enough to knock you back or down. It was obvious that no one is going to draw as fast as they can be struck.

After the necessity of using more than our gun was impressed upon us we took turns learning and applying various disarms. Many were somewhat simple and very fast to do. Most were not for the digestion of the general gun crowd as they involved some knowledge of joint locks to work properly. My favorite disarm was not of this type and could be taught fairly easily. It also was the fastest technique from initiation to pulling the trigger on the other person.

This first part took about two hours. Then we went onto gun retention. This was not given as much attention because none of us are LEOs are we are not expected to have an unholstered gun when we are not actively firing. We mostly focused on hand movements with the pistol in hand already to prevent the other person from grabbing it. We also practiced retention of a gun in your holster when someone goes for it.

We then moved on to the airsoft Glocks (silly I know but their utility really shined on this day). In light of our inability to effectively draw and fire while in close proxmity to the assailant we practiced various strikes and blows to throw the opponent off balance while we gained distance, drew, and fired a Mozambique. This was a great way to see how coordinated all of those separately practiced tasks were. I was surprised that I was not looking at the sights (I am a front sight man at the range) but still getting excellent hits exactly where I thought my hand was pointed. I think that all of the drilling that I do at the range with the sights has translated into some good muscle memory.

We did this for about half an hour and varied the initial strikes between forearm strikes and kicks. Forearm strikes seem to work best for me, or are fastest at least. Then we donned thick sweatshirts and protective headgear. It was time for force on force, which I had never done before. That was another great experience - in the very first matchup I got to square off from 15 yards against the head instructor. The BOBs are about head height and the size of a large man and they had been left a few feet off the wall in the open room. This was the only cover and we both fired at each other as we sidestepped over to it. He was progressing towards me and trying to flush me out by shooting my extremities. He hit my thigh which stung a bit and I started to go around one side so he came out to try to get around my back. I had noticed earlier that he had stuck a spare magazine in his pocket and I saw him try to reload on the run.

But he dropped his magazine and I immediately came out of cover to shoot him about a dozen times as he was fumbling and trying to recover. I did something similar in my second matchup when my opponent's pistol jammed and I unloaded on him. After several bouts we cleaned up the millions of white plastic BBs on the mat and did a few last drills on two assailants.

All in all the seminar lasted about four hours and was an extremely good use of $50. I must also note that the gun safety practiced and enforced by the instructor was excellent even though we were just holding plastic molds or airsoft guns.

Lessons Learned



1. If someone tries to disarm you your trigger finger will probably be broken. If you are using a grip where the offhand pointer finger rests on the front of the trigger guard that finger will be broken as well. I am now considering changing my grip.

2. The 21 foot rule applies for a damn good reason. I'm pretty fast with my draw (so I'd like to think) but it seems forever next to a punch or a disarm.

3. Don't go for a gun pointed at you until you have already moved your body out of the boreline. If you block to push the gun away before or during your body movement the startle reaction of the agressor will most likely shoot you whether they meant to or not.

4. Don't try to wrestle for the gun to change it's position in space - change its orientation. It is actually easier to put someone in a joint lock or break their wrist when they are holding a gun because they are in essence giving you a big lever.

5. Don't draw if you are in arm's reach of your target!

6. Weapons are not for negotiation. Leaving the holster is synonymous with shooting and shooting is synonymous with killing.

7. If you really are getting in a wrestling match for the gun try to discharge it towards the other person or at least away from you so that it jams (thumb behind slide, etc.). This will injure you but it will let you stop trying to get the gun and let you focus on really hurting the other person -especially if they still want the gun and give you that nice lever arm again!

8. Use cover. Expect to get shot at least once. Exploit any opportunity even if it means shooting someone with a jammed gun in the back. Practice your moving reloads so no one shoots you in the back while you hold a jammed gun.

9. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you can shoot. Just because you can shoot doesn't mean that you can draw. Just because you can draw doesn't mean that you are going to hit anything or keep your gun for very long.

10. Get more martial arts and force on force training to complement your range time - which is equally important.




There will be another seminar in July and I heartily suggest that any Atlanta area members come by and give it a try.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:20:05 PM EDT
Some of the Georgia gang had the "big lever" technique demonstrated to them last September by one of our members. It's amazing how fast and effective it is to disarm someone using that method.

Definately get some distance if you don't have it, and keep shooting until they go down.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:25:44 PM EDT
What happens to your hand if it's gripping the slide of an automatic or the chamber of a revolver that is fired?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:28:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
What happens to your hand if it's gripping the slide of an automatic or the chamber of a revolver that is fired?



auto- you're fucked, revolver- if you're stronger than the person pulling the trigger you're fine
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:29:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
What happens to your hand if it's gripping the slide of an automatic or the chamber of a revolver that is fired?



auto- you're fucked, revolver- if you're stronger than the person pulling the trigger you're fine



The way that we did the disarms this was not even an issue since the very first thing we did was get out of the boreline and never once in our technique is the muzzle going anywhere near us again. The disarm is mostly done by the time you have rotated 180 degrees away from you.

Even if the gun discharges while your hand is behind the slide it won't hurt you that bad - not nearly as bad as getting shot.

Oh, and we learned some really great disarms in case anyone trys that "gangsta grip" - I would really prefer that since they have already rotated their wrist and done a lot of the work for me.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:31:14 PM EDT
This is why god invented bayonets.

I wonder, just for shits and giggles, how a rifle/bayone equipped person would fare in some of these match ups.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:33:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
This is why god invented bayonets.

I wonder, just for shits and giggles, how a rifle/bayone equipped person would fare in some of these match ups.



I was telling my friend about that bayonet that fits on the CZ-75 pistol and we made a little copy with a rubber combat knife and one of the plastic Glock replicas. Neither of us had any trouble doing the disarms without being "cut."

As for a longarm? I am not sure. I am sure whatever principles of staff and jo defense I eventually learn will apply to a longarm.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:42:46 PM EDT

6. Weapons are not for negotiation. Leaving the holster is synonymous with shooting and shooting is synonymous with killing.


I wouldn't quote that as gospel. Plenty of circumstances could happen while you are "on gun" and the nature of the threat changes where DF is no longer justified, but dropping your posture or taking the time to reholster puts you at a disadvantage.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:45:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Roland_O_Gilead:


5. Don't draw if you are in arm's reach of your target!



+1000

I love doing gun stuff in the dojo.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:52:24 PM EDT
good info. practice these skills often.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:56:03 PM EDT
tagged for later
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:56:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Roland_O_Gilead:


5. Don't draw if you are in arm's reach of your target!



+1000

I love doing gun stuff in the dojo.



I wouldnt use this as a golden rule. There are times when drawing within arms reach would be applicable. To reduce the chances of a gun grab, you can add-in something like a forearm to the brachial plexus as a "distractor" while you complete your draw.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:52:33 PM EDT
All good comments above.

Having been to several handgun/rifle retention/disarmament courses, including a really wonderful segment that was part of a seminar by Felix Valencia today, a few additional comments come to mind:

- If you are performing a disarm on a semi-auto, chances are it's going to fire. If it's recoil operated as most are and you've got the firearm well wrapped up the slide won't move hardly at all. It doesn't hurt (assuming you've got the muzzle deflected in a good direction ). I've actually had the opportunity to do this with a live weapon (not at speed!). If it's blowback operated it's a little more dicey pain-wise but in either case your OK and you've probably caused a stoppage. If you're real lucky or skilled you'll have pulled the slide out of battery a bit and the gun won't fire at all.

- The same is not true of revolvers, of course. They won't have a stoppage and it's likely you may not be able to prevent the cylinder from rotating. Again I've had the opportunity to do this with a live weapon and the gases escaping between the cylinder and barrel sting like a bast*rd. You probably won't notice in the heat of battle.

- Felix demonstrated the shortcomings of the typical Lindell or Lindell-like techniques. These can be overcome if the shooter is fast enough or trained enough to pull away. Instead he taught a technique whereby the firearm and arm holding it are deflected into the belly of shooter leaving substantially less of an opening for the shooter to escape the disarm. That is followed up with the actual disarm using joint lock techniques. Muzzle consciousness was required during the actual disarm (usually palm up) move to keep it from pointing at yourself.

- We also did a lot of retention/escape work from stalemate situations including just about every combination of gun/knife/empty hand for both good guy/bad guy. Without writing a novel let's just say everyone should carry a knife on their offhand side--it can end many retention situations quickly

- If you EVER get a chance to work with Felix Valencia drop everything and GO! He is absolutely PHENOMENAL, and a nicer, friendlier person you will never meet.

aa
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:20:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By Roland_O_Gilead:


5. Don't draw if you are in arm's reach of your target!



+1000

I love doing gun stuff in the dojo.



I wouldnt use this as a golden rule. There are times when drawing within arms reach would be applicable. To reduce the chances of a gun grab, you can add-in something like a forearm to the brachial plexus as a "distractor" while you complete your draw.



In so many words that is exactly what they had us doing today after we learned some other retention techniques. Perhaps I should have said "Don't draw within arm's reach if you're only going to draw!"


The dojo has an old junked car that it was using for stunt work and we are talking about cleaning up the interior so we can run some carjacking scenarios at the next seminar. One of our students is from Puerto Rico and she was talking about some of the different carjacking styles around there. It should be fun.
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