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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:30:10 AM EDT
Anyone care to offer an opinion on what the impact will be on a secret security clearance for a retired Marine who has been charged and will probably be found guilty of adultery? He's not active but still bound by UCMJ. Will this even show up when they run his background?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:31:08 AM EDT
Hrm, tag.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:37:09 AM EDT
I've never seen an adultry question on an SF86 so I don't imagine they'll check for it.

Just curious, but how is he bound by UCMJ if he's retired?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:38:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:40:17 AM EDT by pv74]
WTF?
Retired and bound by the UCMJ? Explain please...
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:38:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By geezhound:
I've never seen an adultry question on an SF86 so I don't imagine they'll check for it.

Just curious, but how is he bound by UCMJ if he's retired?



Yeah what he said?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:39:30 AM EDT
I've never seen an adultry question on an SF86 so I don't imagine they'll check for it.

Just curious, but how is he bound by UCMJ if he's retired?




I would think that he would have to have been active when the "crime" took place.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:41:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:43:16 AM EDT by AeroE]
Damn, that's a good question.

The UCMJ is a Federal Code. If it was a civil matter, it probably would be a small consideration as long as there is no chance one of the two others involved can't use it to blackmail you.

I would work hard to get the charges dimissed or reduced, and I wouldn't worry about it too much; all you can do is damage control now.

Don't lie to the DIS when they interview you and you will most likely sail through okay.

Retired or separated with 2 years inactive commitment remaining?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:41:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:42:11 AM EDT
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:47:58 AM EDT
If records are checked, then it will undoubtedly show up.

Will that affect his qualification for a security clearance?

No.

Having been in the industry for over twenty years, I've known many folks who have had similar problems with no effect on obtaining or continuing a clearance.


Ed
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:51:05 AM EDT
From UCMJ:
5-5. Applicability Of The Uniform Code Of Military Justice
Even though you have retired, you are still subject to Article II of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and to trial by court-martial for violation of the Code.

Link:here
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:57:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:58:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:01:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By geezhound:
I've never seen an adultry question on an SF86 so I don't imagine they'll check for it.

Just curious, but how is he bound by UCMJ if he's retired?



As long as you're on military retirement you're bound by the UCMJ.

Paul (retired USN)



You have to be retired recalled in order for action to be taken.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:04:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 7:11:03 AM EDT by 101_proof]

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
If records are checked, then it will undoubtedly show up.

Will that affect his qualification for a security clearance?

No.

Having been in the industry for over twenty years, I've known many folks who have had similar problems with no effect on obtaining or continuing a clearance.


Ed


Even at SCI?



Sure it won't be a problem at all as long as the offense is not recent and all the details were disclosed up front. The quickest and easiest way to get you're ass bounced on a clearance is financial problems.

Tell you're buddy to not lie to them, if he is being charged he needs to contact DSS and let them know what is happening.

www.dss.mil/nf/adr/adjguid/adjguidF.htm


ETA link
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:08:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:13:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....



Kind of like the mistake of handing off some seeminly harmless info for some cash when times are rough. Just a mistake that's all
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:24:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 7:24:24 AM EDT by Redmanfms]
Depends.

At SCI, I'm thinking it will. Then again I'm not an expert, nor do I have an SCI clearance, only Secret.

Most (well, all) of the fellas I know in the Navy that are cleared SCI are also in the PRP. Adultery, problem drinking, gambling, indebtedness, etc. are all PRP disquals.

Does he already have the clearance or is he being vetted?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:29:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....



Kind of like the mistake of handing off some seeminly harmless info for some cash when times are rough. Just a mistake that's all


I wouldn't equate infidelity to selling state secrets. I'm just saying just because you would do one doesn't mean you would do the other. And no, I'm not defending infidelity either!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:33:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....hr


Kind of like the mistake of handing off some seeminly harmless info for some cash when times are rough. Just a mistake that's allhr

I wouldn't equate infidelity to selling state secrets. I'm just saying just because you would do one doesn't mean you would do the other. And no, I'm not defending infidelity either!



Goes to lack of judgement. DWI is not exactly equivalent to selling state secrets either, but shows lack of judgement.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:35:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?



By that standard there would have been exactly one guy left in the top secret installations where I worked.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:37:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Stove_Pipe:

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....



Kind of like the mistake of handing off some seeminly harmless info for some cash when times are rough. Just a mistake that's all



I used to work in secure installations. I never met anybody who was stupid enough to get confused about that difference.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:39:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brickeyee:
Goes to lack of judgement. DWI is not exactly equivalent to selling state secrets either, but shows lack of judgement.



So does getting drunk. By either standard, if either thing had been cause for security clearance problems -- getting drunk and stupid, or getting some strange pussy -- the places where I worked would have been ghost towns.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:41:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?




Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....




I have been with my wife since 1985, and not once have I ever thought about straying.

Just to let you know, I make mistakes everyday. I'm not perfect or holy by any means, but I know I can be trusted by my wife.

This is a loyalty issue, if you cant be loyal to yourself, who can you be loyal too?

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:44:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?




Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....




I have been with my wife since 1985, and not once have I ever thought about straying.

Just to let you know, I make mistakes everyday. I'm not perfect or holy by any means, but I know I can be trusted by my wife.

This is a loyalty issue, if you cant be loyal to yourself, who can you be loyal too?




Have you ever worked in a secure installation? Ever been stationed overseas and worked in one? Could you tell me, percentage-wise, what portion of those married guys remain absolutely true and faithful to their wives while they spend a year or two in some foreign country?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:53:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:


Have you ever worked in a secure installation? Yes

Ever been stationed overseas and worked in one? Yes

Could you tell me, percentage-wise, what portion of those married guys remain absolutely true and faithful to their wives while they spend a year or two in some foreign country?

100% of the married guys I knew



Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:54:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?



We have a winner!
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 7:57:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:


Have you ever worked in a secure installation? Yes

Ever been stationed overseas and worked in one? Yes

Could you tell me, percentage-wise, what portion of those married guys remain absolutely true and faithful to their wives while they spend a year or two in some foreign country?

100% of the married guys I knew





I worked for several years in them and had the exact opposite experience. Only one guy I ever met went without poontang overseas. Oddly enough, I met his wife after we got back to the states and she was giving out to everybody with a pair of pants.

You go ahead and apply your standards to security clearances. Assuming they are actually enforced, that would pretty much be the end of our intelligence services.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 8:03:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 8:07:04 AM EDT by junebug68]

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?




Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....




I have been with my wife since 1985, and not once have I ever thought about straying.

Just to let you know, I make mistakes everyday. I'm not perfect or holy by any means, but I know I can be trusted by my wife.

This is a loyalty issue, if you cant be loyal to yourself, who can you be loyal too?



I understand what you are saying, but it just seems like you are painting with an awfully wide brush. I guess I can only draw on my own experience with this issue. I was one of those people who had to "feel the sting" in order to appreciate the importance of being loyal. As God is my witness, I haven't made the same mistake twice. It cost me my first marriage. That's why I know people can make mistakes and never repeat them, because I live it out every day. The pain that caused is a healthy reminder to stay on the right path.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:16:08 AM EDT
They will pull it.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:30:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 11:33:49 AM EDT by KlubMarcus]

Originally Posted By dpmmn: If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?
Exactly. Even if they don't ask, they will look into it. Too many secrets have been lost in the bedroom. It's no accident that the enemy uses female spies to tempt horny military men into spilling the beans. Heck, the enemy might even blackmail him so they can get closer to items above his level.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:32:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?



We have a winner!



Robert Hanssen was a faithful married man.


However, that didn't stop him from being a treacherous piece of dogshit and selling secrets to the Soviet Union. I wouldn't mind being alone with him in a room for 10 minutes.


Moral ethics are nice, but they don't mean character. Example: how many "moral" Priests were found to have molested children? A good number.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:08:14 PM EDT
Succintly, if you are drawing military pay, whether active, active Reserve (during drill or two weeks AT) retainer or retired pay, you are subject to the UCMJ.

If he is convicted of a felony or a crime involving moral turpitude, it is almost certain that his clearance will be looked at. If he has one currently, he may be able to keep it. It will need to be reported. I happened to be one of the company HR guys who worked an issue where one of our employees with a clearance got convicted of molesting several children in his family. He got probation and didn't lose his clearance. But our customer told us he was no longer welcome at the facility. His clearance was administratively revoked, no noj no need to know or to have access. He was never able to get another.

If you DON"T have an active clearance, and you accomplish any of several disqualifying events, you probably won't be issued a new clearance, or have an inactive clearance reinstated or transfered to a new employer. If you are on probabtion you can't get a clearance.

We had a marketing manager with a clearance go to the competition while on probation for drunk driving. OOPS, they were unable to transfer his clearance, so he tried to come back, DIS said NO he is on probation =NO clearance. He needed the clearance for the job. We didn't re-hire.

So if he ends up with a felony conviction or a moral turpitude misdemeanor conviction, he very likely will have clearance problems at the time or in the future. Lesson Keep YOUR Zipper UP.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:17:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?



Gets rid of the blackmail element...


Link Posted: 1/22/2006 4:24:05 PM EDT
anything other than a speeding ticket will show up and have a negetive effect on his clearence .

688
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:45:49 AM EDT
Um the civillians on this thread seem to forget, or don't know that if he is convicted under Article 32 (that's a court marshall) for the crime of adultery, then he will have a felony conviction on his record. That sort of does rule out any security clearance doesn't it?
Even if it's just non-judicial punishment under Article 15 (AKA a "Captain's Mast," in the Navy and Marines) it might (probably?) show up on a background.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 1:55:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 1:58:32 AM EDT by 4get_No1]
Mmmmmm... does this apply to Dem Presidents too? Senators? Maybe a double standard? It's okay if you're a pure civilian but the MIL types are expected to be better than Presidents and Senators.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:05:05 AM EDT
I work for a company that does background checks for the govt, and will say this:

1.) If its a criminal record, it WILL come up
2.) If its not a criminal record and one of the people listed for investigators to talk to say something about it, it WILL come up.
3.) As stated earlier, Financial problems are the biggest reason for denial
4.) Just because the adultery shows up, does not necessarily deny you from clearance. It will be an issue as to loyalty, honest, and other wonderful things that the govt wants to make sure you have before entrusting you with employment.
5.) As stated earlier, if the issue is brought up, do not deny it. Explain to the investigator exactly what happened. Being a liar will definately get you denied.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:30:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By junebug68:

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?


Not implying that you've ever cheated on your spouse (if you have one), but you have never made a bad mistake that you know you will never repeat? Wow, I wish I was as holy as some of the people on this board.....


not only that but your ass-uming that he was they married one maybe hes single and hte other party married.....but I have yet to see an adultery charge either UCMJ or civilian law...stick...without video its to hard to "PROVE".....
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 3:56:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?



Why not? We have had a couple of Presidents with top secret clearance who couldn't keep it in their pants.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:06:57 AM EDT
I think that as long as you tell them about it, then there is no problem. The issue with security clearance (from my perspective, I could be wrong), was that they are worried about you having secrets so serious, that if someone found out, you could be blackmailed. If you have no hidden secrets, they know they don't have to worry about you sneaking classified material out of work to prevent your secrets from being revealed.

Tell the truth to the investigators, and you (in general) should be fine.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:22:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By dpmmn: If he cant be faithful to his spouse, do you think he can be faithful in anything else?
Exactly. Even if they don't ask, they will look into it. Too many secrets have been lost in the bedroom. It's no accident that the enemy uses female spies to tempt horny military men into spilling the beans. Heck, the enemy might even blackmail him so they can get closer to items above his level.



If that was actually enforced then the posts I was at would be empty. Lots of guys had hooches in the village, with steady girlfriends.

The rate of marital infidelity in the US is something above 50 percent for men. That is in the US, where they are in a normal environment with their wives around. Let's suppose that you put them in some barren foreign country, with none of their usual friends or activities, outside a village that consists almost entirely of bars and whorehouses. What do you think would happen to that 50 percent figure?
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