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Posted: 8/7/2001 11:55:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 12:14:53 AM EDT by tayous1]
What would you use as a defense rifle if you lived in a place that was urban but you go two miles out of town and its corn fields for as far as the eye can see. I'm asking this because it's going to help me make up my mind on what gun I'm going to get I live in Bloomington Il if you ever been here you know what I'm talking about when I say a town in the middle of a corn field. The two towns by me Bloomington/Normal are about maybe 10 to 20 miles long and about 5 to 10 miles wide if that. After you get out of the town north you have Hyw 55 and mostly corn fields. East you have 35 miles of corn field until you get to a small farm town then I don't know how far the corn fields go. South you have a few small towns but mostly corn fields nearest big town would be Springfield thats about 45 to 60 miles away. West you have to go through about 5 to then edge of town(I live on the farthest east side.) Then there is about 5 miles of wooded land then corn fields also until you got about 35 miles and get to a small town nearest big town would be Peoria. Now I would like to know what type of rifle you'd want if you lived where I do.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:00:37 AM EDT
The same kind I have now where I live. M1A. I have other close range toys(handguns come to mind) for inside the house fighting, but the .308 will penetrate nicely against urban barricades and range way out in the country.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:07:11 AM EDT
There should be deer in those corn fields, if you hunt you will want the stopping power of a .308, I have an HK91 and it is by far my favorite weapon. AR's are great guns, but I just dont feel right about hunting with them.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:17:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:18:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 1:12:29 AM EDT by tayous1]
Sorry forgot to tell you this rifle would be mostly used as a defense rifle. I don't think I'd use it for hunting(Have a bolt action 30-06 and a 12ga pump.) unless it walks on 2 feet. Edited to add more gun's
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:25:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 12:22:10 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:29:19 AM EDT
12GA Pump, 870 or similar.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:57:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 1:15:16 AM EDT
The shots are going to be 500+ on flat land. It also get real windy down here all year around. Mostly in Spring and Fall.This maybe somthing that might have to do with the rifle i'm going to get.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 2:16:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:10:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tayous1: The shots are going to be 500+ on flat land. It also get real windy down here all year around.
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Can you say Barret? 50 cal!! You know you want it!!
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:23:50 AM EDT
A Semi .308 FAL
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:30:43 AM EDT
Sounds like most of Ohio. From the conditions you described I agree with those who suggest a .308 caliber rifle with semiauto capabilities. A shotgun as a secondary will do for most game and is a effective manstopper as well. As as all around weapon, an AR15 is a good choice though. It will serve you well for most scenarios, but if you don't like the stoping attributes for deer, definately carry a shotgun as well. Personally I think 500yd shots would be unlikely, unless your camped out in a spot in a sniper position (how often can you see 500 yds. in a cornfield?). If you already got an Ar, stick with a standard 20" version and make do. I can't see hauling around ammo, the rifle, and other gear for two rifles plus a shotgun and pistol as well. I can only carry so much and remain adaquately mobile. For me an AR15,shotgun, and a pistol will have to do.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:33:38 AM EDT
Well, since I'm just a few miles away in the Quincy area ([i]I live in Camp Point[/i]), I'll point out the obvious... Hunting with a rifle in Illinois is ILLEGAL. You can't see through corn to shoot anything clearly, so taking a shot like that would be against everything you should have learned very early on -- KNOW YOUR TARGET! Now, if your intended targets are hiding out in the corn, realize that chances are they already have you surrounded since you don't have any cover yourself. You are therefore a sitting duck -- A very dead sitting duck. With all of what I have covered above, I would be left with only one viable solution, in order to equal the odds... NAPALM! The corn will very quickly flash ignite and your enemy will be surrounded by a wall of fire, thus giving you ample opportunity to escape. You have just become the least of their worries. Okay, so napalm isn't for everyone ([i]especially if those crops are yours[/i]), so we come to your next two options... Perimeter Wires and Pungi Pits. A little to much work for you, you say..? Well then, try the time proven method that has been utilized for nearly 50 years in terrain much less friendly than what you have described... an AR-15! Stick with a 20" target rifle for the really long shots, or if leightweight portability is a key issue for you, the LEGP is the perfect 16" lightweight, and it's been turning in groups under 1/2 inch at 100yds as well. If you have not had the opportunity to actually see or handle one of the LEGP's, drive on over to Quincy and check them out!
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 4:37:30 AM EDT
He!...He!...He!...Napalm and Pungi Pits? Do you have Vietnam flash back? Anti, you are a funny guy....[:)]
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 6:24:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 6:31:08 AM EDT
A semi-auto .308 will do the Job. AR-10, FAL, CETME, M1A, HK ...etc... The AR-15 is great for an "inside the house" gun or defense of an acre or two of property. You might try an M1 Garand if you like the stopping power of a .30-06 which is just a bit more than the .308... I visited Illinois a few years back... nothing but cornfeilds... Isn't it ilegal to hunt with a rifle the b/c of all the flat land? I know it was in Indiana at the time -Chuck
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 6:58:49 AM EDT
I live about 17 miles west of Peoria, next to Jubilee State Park. I think the AR15 is perfect. If you are handy with a shotgun, the AR15 is deadly in CQB, and at the kind of ranges you could expect, accurate. We have forest on 2 sides, and cornfield on 2 sides. The cornfields probably prevent any target acquisition past 150 yards from the house, and the woods affords even less visibility. The issue is then finding him before he expects you to. Chances are good that he will be at your door before you know it, so keep a Glock 22 handy. If you have dogs, that makes it much easier. Most run of the mill criminals would flee at the sight or sound of any gun. The more tactical ones probably work for Uncle Sam. If things come to that, boy, be prepared to die for the cause.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:17:31 AM EDT
I'm stickin' with the Napalm!
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:36:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 9:39:13 AM EDT
What situation are you picturing that you will have to engage threats to your home from 500 yards out?
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:00:30 AM EDT
Bloomington is a good town. Excellent Corvett show every year. A .338 Win mag should be just the ticket for you. Good distance, and 1/10th the cost of the Barett .50
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:05:17 AM EDT
Frist off 500yrd is realy not that long .he use of this rifle is going to be for just shooting and haveing fun right now but it will be used in the SHTF kind of thing where 500yrd shots will be taken.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:12:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 10:09:26 AM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:21:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: ?????????........seems damn long to me. Only time I ever fired that distance was USMC quals.
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Yes see you where able to do it when you where in the USMC because they taught you to shoot that far. I was taught by my uncle and grandfather how where both in the USMC how to shoot and they taught me 500yrd shooting because they where taught that.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:44:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:13:32 AM EDT
thebeekeeper1: I'm confused, as usual--you say you want a rifle for self defense, then say the shots will be up to 500 yards.
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You're not the only one, I don't understand half of the answers, let alone WTF the question is. Couldn't believe no one brought up the little problem of rifles being illegal to use in IL sooner (Thanks Tim). Not many seem to disagree on the obvious answer - 308, & 30-06. I like 308s, but if it [b]has to be a rifle[/b], I'd want a 30-06 just because ammo is easier to find for it around there (I know the area). Still, my first choice would be a 12 gauge in this (murky) situation. Take a peek at what the farmers around you carry, and [u]use[/u]. They use plain old, ugly, unglamorous 12s. Not just because of the "law," because they're adaptable, they're rugged, & they [u]work[/u]. If it [b]has[/b] to be a rifle, and you're beyond caring about any "laws.", it means one of two things.... Either the "law" is after you, or the S has HTF big-time. In either case, no rifle is going to get you out of the situation alone, & much more important decisions have been made, & still have to be made other than small arms. [i]A well-maintained vehicle with gas to GTF outa' Dodge comes to mind.[/i] Then water, then food....... Speaking of food, why the hell is everyone talking about shooting deer, even burning down all the food you're surrounded by to do it?!? If it's a SHTF scenario, & there's corn you don't have a food problem, it's time to make friends with that damned farmer. If you're in the middle of an [u]empty[/u] cornfield, you've lasted a lot longer than you should've to start with, & your problems will be over soon enough.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:35:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest: 500 yards is over a quarter mile away, and unless you are using optics is not feasible in real life. Sure on a range with irons, at a black target on a white background its not so bad. In real life that target will probably be moving, possibly shooting back, and most of all blend in much better with their surroundings. It is darn difficult to see up a STANDING person at 500yards if they are wearing earth tones or camoflauge, let alone trying to hit one that is moving. Keep this in mind when deciding on your rifle needs. I orginally thought this way but found out it wasn't very realistic.
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The U.S.M.C where picking men of at 800yrd during WWI with iron sights.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:40:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 11:39:01 AM EDT by Scarecrow]
[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=10577068&p=46196521[/img] I forgot who posted this gun before, But get a rig like this, i dont think anything could possibly be better, especially this config, this gun is beautifull. sure beats a shit FAL (only shit compared to this specimen)
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:42:39 AM EDT
M1A or FAL
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:49:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:57:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2001 11:54:26 AM EDT by Forest]
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:59:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:07:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: Tayous1, as you have a bolt '06 a M 1 Garand would make logistic sense. It is a Battle rifle, tried and proven. [i][b]"If you're not part of the Solution, you're part of the problem"[/i][/b] deer and pheasants........oh my! sgb
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Yes it would but I don't like how much the ammo costs for the 30-06 it costs me about $200-$300 for just 1000rd of ammo for this gun and that is way to much for me. The 223 and the 308 are cheap right now so that's why I'm looking at them.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:21:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 12:39:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SGB: If your serious about 500 yard shots that will be affective against a live target buy a 7.62 cal weapon with good optics. Remember rapid fire at this kind of distance is unnecessary. Your '06 will fill this role. Mine does. If you want a light, fast handling rifle that will be effective out to 300 yards and capable of inflicting damage to 500 yards get a 5.56. The 5.56 AR 15 is going to give you the most flexibility and is going to be the most cost effective. You've got to remember logistics, parts and availability. My last point is the AR is a much easier weapon to train family members to use, ie: wife, mother, sister and kids due to its excellent ergonomics and no recoil. [b][i]"If you're not part of the Solution, you're part of the problem"[/b][/i] sgb
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Thanks for the info I'm looking at an Ar-15 right now because it's cheaper then thr DSA STG58 and I also have about 950rd of 223 ammo left from my old mini-14.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 1:02:55 PM EDT
#1: I'm shocked how many folks on this thread don't consider the AR15 as an adequate defensive rifle under the scenerio described. And on an AR board. [:o] The Marines and anyone else that knows how to shoot their AR can go out to 500+ yards, especially shooting SS109 equivalents. #2: If you're in a SHTF scenerio I don't think hunting laws will apply for shooting deer with an AR, just pop them in the head. Tayous already has an 3006 as a legal caliber. #3: SGB is right that an AR will give you the most flexibility. #4: Personally I'd avoid any empty cornfield and keep driving unless it's your last alternative. Even with a .308 you're going to be in a world of hurt. Better add an entrenching tool to your kit in that SOL situation. My opinions of course. Talyn
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 1:10:14 PM EDT
Is anybody against using "Agent Orange" first ?
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 2:48:45 PM EDT
Talyn I'm going to try to stay away from the corn also. But around me you got an hour before you get to anything else. I think a lot of people talk how the 223 in flat land and in hight winds that the small 223 bullet would be blown far off it's mark at 500yrd (I think with some of the wind thats down here so would a 308.) Also how many other country use 308 in there battle rifles any more. last is the 223 the most widely used bullet in the world for the military's and it's also what the U.N would use. If I'm wrong about any of this just tell me.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 3:33:15 PM EDT
Tayous, You're not wrong. If you're in a high wind area everyone will have problems. High power AR15 rifle shooters at Camp Perry (notorious of it's winds off Lake Erie)are handily beating M1A's at 1000 yards. Of course they're not using 55 gr. FMJ's If you're alone and on foot it's best to travel light & fast. You'll be able to carry more ammo for the same weight. Put a decent piece of optics on an AR and you can hold your own as long as you don't get in over your head. Don't get me wrong about a longer range rifle. I have them also & they have their place. What you personally decide to carry is up to you, depending on your circumstances. Everything has it's pluses and minuses. The first problem will be getting out of a difficult urban situation even before you have to worry about the wind open corn fields. There most of the long range situations are nullified. Advantage AR. If you want to waste time punching holes in vehicles on the way then a .308 will do a better job. If you're scrounging off the bad guys the majority of the ammo will be 5.56 and be using an AR compatible magazine (both used world-wide), but not all. Any .308 will be off GPMG's. Advantage AR. If you're budget limited the AR holds the overall advantage. My opinions of course. Talyn
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 6:06:59 PM EDT
Talyn I could not agree more with you.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:10:56 AM EDT
Tayous, Let's hope that we never have to deal with any such scenerio. Good luck and good shootin. [:)] Talyn
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 1:30:28 PM EDT
Well I rather it be me dealing with it then my childern and if you have a kid you'd know why I'm saying that.But in all I rather it not happian at all.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 1:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 2:10:01 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
[b]Whoops! I didnt see that this was a two page post, sorry. This post was in response to Forrest on the first page[/b] Then you had better get the optics and practice your scanning and use of binoculars more. Yes its hard to see cammo at 500m- is it impossible? NO. Especially if they are moving. If you dont have the luxury of picking up a mike and calling for Arty or airstrikes, long range shooting is the only way to get them to respect you and keep them at 500m or more away. Just ask the members of a certain Green Beret A-team from the Gulf War. Just because it isnt useful all the time is no reason to delete this skill from your list. SgtAR15 posted his rig once, he keeps a set of personally owned optics for use with his Issue M16A2. He has a ARMS #39 bi-level carry handle scope mount with Reflex II mounted on the forward rail. Then he has one of the ATN 5x scopes with the BDC in it on a ARMS throw lever QD mount that he attaches to the top rail when he needs it. He also has a relitively elderly and heavy Israeli IR laser that he can clamp to the front sight base to shoot with his issue AN/PVS-7B. That kind of arrangement on a 20" in HBAR, would do the widely divergant kinds of shooting tayous1 was talking about. But then widely divergant kinds of shooting is what a infantryman on campaign has to deal with, whereas the spec-ops types can go home at the end of one mission and change their gear. A SEAL can raid a building with a M4 or shotgun one night, then go home and come back again as a sniper and sit over the fields outside the same town with a M14 or Mk11. Regular line infantry have to carry their shit with them, often humping it all, so they only get one rifle that has to be passibly good at both. Hence the reason why the M16, and not the M4, is still in use by most infantry other than SpecOps and Airborne.
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