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Posted: 1/17/2006 5:18:00 PM EDT
Were there a significant number of Jews who fled the country when being rounded up by the Nazis or not?

I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took. However, it seems that so many of them just willingly went, without either a fight or without trying to escape. I am not criticizing the jews, just wondering why there wasn't more fighting and escape. Or maybe there was, but the Nazis suppressed the news of it?

I would imagine that even with the tight security of wartime, one could certainly escape to Canada or Mexico if need be, even if they had become "sheep" to the extent that they just would not fight back. Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:20:32 PM EDT
Many did flee when the Nazis were rising in power. However, it's not like they went from being free one day and being thrown into gas chambers the next, it was very slow. The Jews probably didn't expect the "final solution" was coming. In fact, as you probably know, they thought they were getting showers right up to the point where they were gassed.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
Were there a significant number of Jews who fled the country when being rounded up by the Nazis or not?

I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took. However, it seems that so many of them just willingly went, without either a fight or without trying to escape. I am not criticizing the jews, just wondering why there wasn't more fighting and escape. Or maybe there was, but the Nazis suppressed the news of it?

I would imagine that even with the tight security of wartime, one could certainly escape to Canada or Mexico if need be, even if they had become "sheep" to the extent that they just would not fight back. Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?



I think the suppresion of news coverage would have been the case.
Think about it. If you are touting yourself as a member and leader of a supreme master race, would you let a news article go to print that told about how the "Inferior Race" you were trying to exterminate Out-fought or out-smarted your followers?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:21:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:22:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 5:23:33 PM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
Were there a significant number of Jews who fled the country when being rounded up by the Nazis or not?

I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took. However, it seems that so many of them just willingly went, without either a fight or without trying to escape. I am not criticizing the jews, just wondering why there wasn't more fighting and escape. Or maybe there was, but the Nazis suppressed the news of it?

I would imagine that even with the tight security of wartime, one could certainly escape to Canada or Mexico if need be, even if they had become "sheep" to the extent that they just would not fight back. Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?



Their privately owned guns were confiscated long before the camps were built. It's a lesson of history that by the time a people realize they are about to be slaughtered and that it is time to fight back, it is usually too late. I believe the American Revolution was an exception.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:22:45 PM EDT
Some got away, but I don't know how many. Many countries did not want the European Jews to show up on their doorstep. Remember, most of the Jews in Europe were just your run-of-the-mill urban schlub or farmer. While a skilled scientist might find refuge, few countries wanted more impoverished farmers or factory workers.

The European treatment of the Jews is reason enough to ignore anything the Germans, French, Poles, Austrian, French, or Czechs ever have to say about human rights. It is a damn shame that we didn't go genocidal on most of those people. They are all still as racist as ever.

Some countries protected their Jews. Denmark and Finnland come to mind.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:23:36 PM EDT
depends which year. Once fortress europa was in place there was nowhere to go period. only to hide by sympathizers, mainly in holland, but elsewhere too. Other sympathizers in central europe who might have hid jews were busy hiding OSS and SAS agents and would probably have ahad a difficult time hiding a jew n say, france. The rest of europe wasn't too sad to see the JEws get slaughtered.

around 39-40 some trickled west ahead of the blitzkriegs. My grandfather included. Left Warsaw on August 30, 1939. Eerie, huh?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:24:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:
I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took. However, it seems that so many of them just willingly went, without either a fight or without trying to escape. I am not criticizing the jews, just wondering why there wasn't more fighting and escape. Or maybe there was, but the Nazis suppressed the news of it?

I would imagine that even with the tight security of wartime, one could certainly escape to Canada or Mexico if need be, even if they had become "sheep" to the extent that they just would not fight back. Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?



You know in retrospect what sort of fate they were headed to. They were not told where they were going or what they could expect there, at least early in the war. You have to recall that even in the US, word about the camps did not reach us for the first couple of years and even then it was denied as being a wild rumor because the Germans were viewed as a civilized people that wouldn't do such a thing.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:29:29 PM EDT
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:48:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 5:50:07 PM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:53:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:53:40 PM EDT
Its not like Jews had it all hunky doery before the Final Solution was inacted.

The had to know it was going from bad to worse years before the war. I mean they prevented Jews with advanced education or degrees from teaching or practicing their trade. State sponsored riots against Jewish communities. Moving them into Ghettos.

Those that stayed had their head in the sand. They were being treated like shit for years. It is not that far of a leap to "bad things" coming ahead.

They could have GTFO but they, like a lot of sheeple were in denial.

Not to deride the dead, but come on. Why did they freaking stay through that shit for five years or more? Move to some world country, better than the hell they were going through.

What was the US policy on jewish immigrants before WWII? Was it still, get here and become a citizen?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:15:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.




I would have to disagree about who is being ignorant.

Many of those interned in the US were not Japanese nationals, but US citizens born and raised here. Witness the number who volunteered and served in the European campaigns.

And the similarities between the two situations in the early days is striking.

Both were feared to be disloyal and possibly the center of revolt.

Much of the impetus at the local level had nothing to do with real hate, but with the desire of jealous neighbors to take over the property and businesses left by those put into camps. This is the disgusting part of the whole situation in the US, in my eyes, the neighbors willingly pushing to have the guys next door hauled off to be put into camps just so that they could take over their stuff. Disgusting.

What happened after the initial camps is where the two situations are different.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:08:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 7:29:51 PM EDT by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.




I would have to disagree about who is being ignorant.

Many of those interned in the US were not Japanese nationals, but US citizens born and raised here. Witness the number who volunteered and served in the European campaigns.

And the similarities between the two situations in the early days is striking.

Both were feared to be disloyal and possibly the center of revolt.

Much of the impetus at the local level had nothing to do with real hate, but with the desire of jealous neighbors to take over the property and businesses left by those put into camps. This is the disgusting part of the whole situation in the US, in my eyes, the neighbors willingly pushing to have the guys next door hauled off to be put into camps just so that they could take over their stuff. Disgusting.

What happened after the initial camps is where the two situations are different.



+1

Many did tried to leave but were refused entry into other countries due to anti-semitism including the US. Ironically, it was the Chinese and Japanese that worked to get countless out of Germany to save them (read Port of Last resort, stories on Chiune Sugihara, etc... ).
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:14:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 7:18:14 PM EDT by nightstalker]

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.




I thoought someone would fly off the handle. I didn't think it would be you, you're usually a pretty careful reader.
I still think the Japanese went along just like the Jews. They both were not trusted or allowed to be certain areas and were isolated eventually. I'm talking about the state of mind of Jews in Europe and Japanese in America. Both were being scapegoated to some extent and were swept along on the tide of public opinion.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:39:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 7:48:34 PM EDT by Hank_Rearden1]

Originally Posted By nightstalker:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.






I thoought someone would fly off the handle. I didn't think it would be you, you're usually a pretty careful reader.
I still think the Japanese went along just like the Jews. They both were not trusted or allowed to be certain areas and were isolated eventually. I'm talking about the state of mind of Jews in Europe and Japanese in America. Both were being scapegoated to some extent and were swept along on the tide of public opinion.




Com'n guys... where were the riots and public manifisations against the US citizens of Japenese disent... I don't just mean protest marches but rather destruction of property, violent public mass attacks... analogous to what occured through out the 30s in Europe.

The anti-Japanese positions taken in the US did not begin until or around the Pearl Harbor attack, as far as I know. And the thinking was that there were Japanese spies all over the US at the time... we simply did not have the ability to tell who was who at the time.

I mean not to divert from a civil discourse here but to compare or suggest even some similarities between the Jewish experience in the 1930s and 1940 in Europe to what Americans of Japanese decent experienced during the 1940s in the US to me sounds like something I would expect to hear in today's public schools. Then again I grew up during the vietnam war.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:41:30 PM EDT
I don't know, but there does seem to be a WHOLE LOT of "Holocaust" survivors, even 60 years later...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:50:28 PM EDT
My aunt fled the Nazis, as a half Jew in 1940. It got to the point where they took her father's house, and threatened to put him in jail before he fled to France, then the US.

Some of his relatives perished in the Holocaust, tho he didn't know that until years later.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:54:48 PM EDT
There are significant Jewish communities in several South American countries today as a result of the emigration from Nazi Germany.

As for it being news, there was no particular reason for it to be news, and news organizations of those days weren't exactly as comprehensive as the internet.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:58:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I don't know, but there does seem to be a WHOLE LOT of "Holocaust" survivors, even 60 years later...



Rounding up millions of men, women, and children to be extermintated tends to leave quite a few who, if they survive may live 60 or more years later.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:00:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

+1

Many did tried to leave but were refused entry into other countries due to anti-semitism including the US. ...



yep
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:00:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 8:01:32 PM EDT by JBravo223]
My great grandfather used to run an "underground railroad" to help Jews escape Germany. My grandfather used to tell me stories about how he would hide under a false floor in his house when the SS would come to look for his father.

Eventually my great grandfather was caught and he was hung in his town square in Italy.

Anyway, it's nice to know that my family took part in that.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:03:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Some got away, but I don't know how many. Many countries did not want the European Jews to show up on their doorstep. Remember, most of the Jews in Europe were just your run-of-the-mill urban schlub or farmer. While a skilled scientist might find refuge, few countries wanted more impoverished farmers or factory workers.

The European treatment of the Jews is reason enough to ignore anything the Germans, French, Poles, Austrian, French, or Czechs ever have to say about human rights. It is a damn shame that we didn't go genocidal on most of those people. They are all still as racist as ever.

Some countries protected their Jews. Denmark and Finnland come to mind.



We turned away a whole shipload of Jews, and they had to go back to Germany, and most died. It was a shameful act.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:06:47 PM EDT
Many fled the country to places like Poland, Holland, Czhekoslovakia, etc. only to be rounded up later.

Those who could left Europe. Many went to Palestine. Some tried to go to the US, those on the St. Louis were refused entry into the US and most ended up back in Europe and were then put in camps.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:07:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

+1

Many did tried to leave but were refused entry into other countries due to anti-semitism including the US. ...



yep
img15.imageshack.us/img15/5871/salute4vb.th.jpg



Nazi Germanys immigration policies were almost verbatim to those of the US, which is where Hitler got them from.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:09:24 PM EDT
If something isnt done soon, our grandchildren and their kids will be asking the same thing about us.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:21:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Com'n guys... where were the riots and public manifisations against the US citizens of Japenese disent... I don't just mean protest marches but rather destruction of property, violent public mass attacks... analogous to what occured through out the 30s in Europe.

The anti-Japanese positions taken in the US did not begin until or around the Pearl Harbor attack, as far as I know. And the thinking was that there were Japanese spies all over the US at the time... we simply did not have the ability to tell who was who at the time.

I mean not to divert from a civil discourse here but to compare or suggest even some similarities between the Jewish experience in the 1930s and 1940 in Europe to what Americans of Japanese decent experienced during the 1940s in the US to me sounds like something I would expect to hear in today's public schools. Then again I grew up during the vietnam war.



Again, I'm not talking about the experience but more their state of mind, but here's a few things I find similar. The original poster was asking why the Jews seemed to go along. Many had already left but the ones that stayed were probably living on hope or in denial of the realities they'd already seen. Could Japanese Americans have been aware of this here in the US? Maybe, but I just think it's plausible that they both had a certain level of despair at their circumstances and a lot of anxiety for the future, which they felt fairly powerless to change.

Japanese and Jews lost their businesses and property (my father in law took care of one guy's farm).

Japanese and Jews were sometimes separated from families.

Both got shipped off to camps.

Both were viewed as disloyal (risks).

Remember I just said "some" similarities and I really don't know the answer as to whether many Japanese left to return to Japan but it's for certain, if they did, they had the means to do it just like the Jews.

This sort of reminds me to get something back from a friend. It was a book that had pictures and information on all the local Japanese families in it. It turned out it was a record of sorts that was intended to be sent back to Japan, to Hirohito. I've been wanting to get it to a local Japanese Historical Society.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:24:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:
Many did flee when the Nazis were rising in power. However, it's not like they went from being free one day and being thrown into gas chambers the next, it was very slow. The Jews probably didn't expect the "final solution" was coming. In fact, as you probably know, they thought they were getting showers right up to the point where they were gassed.



You are right on. At first, Jewish businesses in Germany were targetted. Then all Jews were forced to register with the government and wear yellow stars on their clothing. It was a slow, methodical process. The steps Jews took to evade capture is legendary. I've read stories where families would hide in piles of shoes.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:35:03 PM EDT

Originall Posted by PeterCO:
I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took.



So if you lived in Berlin you would have just snuck in to the woods and say crossed over in to France? How exactly would you got yourself there? Feeding your family with what? Protecting your wife and children with what if you came across authorities without proper documentation? All a gun or knife would do is guarantee your death and that of your family. Once there you would have done what? A clearly foreign German speaking Jew, and you think you'd just settle ilegally? Before the war you'd have been sent back. After it started there was no where to "sneak through the woods at night" too unless you fancied swimming the English channel with the wife and children. Germans who helped you or who knew of what you were doing would also be targeted by the Nazi authorities.



I am not criticizing the jews, just wondering why there wasn't more fighting and escape.


Escape to where? Fight with what? Run from Germany in to Nazi controlled France? Run from Germany to Nazi controlled Belgium? Run from Germany to Nazi controlled Poland? Did the thought ever occur to you that most who fought and tried to escape ended up dead, along with their families?

The US ended up with around 12 million people in uniform to defeat the Nazi's and Japanese regimes, along with the tens of millions more from Russia and other countries, yet somehow these civilians, with every possible obstacle in front of them, and no support structure around them were supposed to get fight and escape.


Some did get out, mostly before the war, usually those with exceptional qualifications and contacts overseas. Immigration visas, if they were going to be issued at all, took a long time, just as they do today. Usually years. You didn't have the opportunity to just jump on a plane like you do today without any need for a visa (for most Western countries) and then just dissapear at the other end once you land after lying to immigration about the purpose of your visit.

Before the war unless you had exceptional qualifications it was almost impossible to get a visa to emmigrate to a safe country. After the war started Europe was a fortress that was almost impossible to escape from even if you were a single, fit individual.


Just out of curiosity why did so many thousands of US soldiers surrender, while fully armed and supplied, to Japanese or German forces and do nothing to fight or escape? They had the training, they had experience, they didn't have their families around them so their was no risk to their lives? Yet they accepted that fate, the brutality and the murder by Japanese Guards and didn't "fight and escape" except in trivial numbers.

Ever notice how a handful of guards were able to keep thousands of trained veteran soldiers in captivity? Even when a few would escape, a few bullets would solve that happening too often. Even when many were brutally bashed and killed there were not uprisings. All POW camps could have easily been overtaken by the prisoners at anytime. But after they did that where would they go to? Answer: nowhere. They would have ended up dead. Some will of course risk it, and some did and a very small number of those who tried managed to escape.

Not many people that have families "fight and escape." And despite what many of the uber tactical internet hero's on this site think, most of those with families would not actively resist either if there family was with them. Since all opposition was brutally crushed from 1933 onwards in Germany, any attempts at organising underground opposition was basically impossible. Individuals that attempted to fight didn't last long. If you look at most Jews who managed to escape or fight they were young men and women who didn't have spouses or children at risk, and most of them ended up dead by war end.



Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?


Care to point out when between 1933 and 1945 the Jews of Europe knew death was certain for them? The answer of course was when they were being fed in to gas chambers or being shot in pits. The Nazis didn't advertise "Jews to be exterminated starting next week."
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:48:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 8:51:20 PM EDT by JBravo223]

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
How many Japanese left the US ahead of the relocations? In the beginning the situations had some similarities.



Oh really...

I missed it where a fleet of Jewish attack carriers and bombers nearly destroyed one half of US naval power and caused thousands of deaths and casualties.

I typically respect other team members' opinions on matters such as these... but really dude you're either kidding or terribly ignorant.






I thoought someone would fly off the handle. I didn't think it would be you, you're usually a pretty careful reader.
I still think the Japanese went along just like the Jews. They both were not trusted or allowed to be certain areas and were isolated eventually. I'm talking about the state of mind of Jews in Europe and Japanese in America. Both were being scapegoated to some extent and were swept along on the tide of public opinion.




Com'n guys... where were the riots and public manifisations against the US citizens of Japenese disent... I don't just mean protest marches but rather destruction of property, violent public mass attacks... analogous to what occured through out the 30s in Europe.

The anti-Japanese positions taken in the US did not begin until or around the Pearl Harbor attack, as far as I know. And the thinking was that there were Japanese spies all over the US at the time... we simply did not have the ability to tell who was who at the time.

I mean not to divert from a civil discourse here but to compare or suggest even some similarities between the Jewish experience in the 1930s and 1940 in Europe to what Americans of Japanese decent experienced during the 1940s in the US to me sounds like something I would expect to hear in today's public schools. Then again I grew up during the vietnam war.



The fact that the Japanese were rounded up and shipped off to camps is one of the most shameful acts ever committed against American citizens; and that is what most of them were. They had rights guaranteed by the Constitution just as you and I. Stripping Americans of their rights is NEVER justified.

Your argument of "well we didn't know who was who" is the same way the anti-gun crowd looks at us. Do you think that is fair? Is that the American way? The government should NEVER be allowed to "suspend" our rights for the sake of security (or whatever the bullshit reason is at the time).

and in case you're wondering, the President at that time was a Democrat...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:53:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I don't know, but there does seem to be a WHOLE LOT of "Holocaust" survivors, even 60 years later...



What the hell does that mean?

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:04:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I don't know, but there does seem to be a WHOLE LOT of "Holocaust" survivors, even 60 years later...



What the hell does that mean?




I think that you know what he means, hence your. And if he means something else, those sort of discussions never end well anyway.

Perhaps this one could be left alone in the interest of bandwidth.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:08:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
People go to extraordinary efforts to maintain a semblance of normalcy. You won't find a whole bunch of people willing to pull up stakes and go somewhere else if they don't have to, or don't think that they have to.



Yep.
Even when some got to the camps, they tried to convince themselves that this was all a mistake, that things would be fine.
People never want to look the terrible truth in the eye...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:08:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

I mean, if it were me and my family, I would sneak through woods at night, a few miles at a time, until I was in less hostile territory if that's what it took.



I'm sure several had the same idea. Some may have even made it. Anne Frank and family even went into serious hiding. But it's a lot more difficult than you can imagine.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:09:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cjk1:

Perhaps this one could be left alone in the interest of bandwidth.




Agreed. My bad.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:10:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
The anti-Japanese positions taken in the US did not begin until or around the Pearl Harbor attack, as far as I know. And the thinking was that there were Japanese spies all over the US at the time... we simply did not have the ability to tell who was who at the time.



That sounds like anti gun logic. Columbine = Pearl Harbor, let's ban all guns since we don't know who the good gun owners are and who the bad ones are.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:13:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:18:51 PM EDT by ATNT]
Double tap.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:14:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 9:36:43 PM EDT by ATNT]

Originally Posted By ATNT:
Originally Posted By JBravo223:
Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
Originally Posted By nightstalker:
Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
Originally Posted By nightstalker:
...snip...

Your argument of "well we didn't know who was who" is the same way the anti-gun crowd looks at us. Do you think that is fair? Is that the American way? The government should NEVER be allowed to "suspend" our rights for the sake of security (or whatever the bullshit reason is at the time).



I can't remember where I read it, but some Japanese babies not even 1 year old who were adopted by American families were forcibly sent into camps.
There is no way that a baby who can't even speak can act as a spy or saboteur.


Originally Posted By Slogger78:
Originally Posted by PeterCO:
...snip...

Once again, however, I know that if cornered by the Nazis and death was certain, I would take as many with me as possible - why didn't they do this?



Care to point out when between 1933 and 1945 the Jews of Europe knew death was certain for them? The answer of course was when they were being fed in to gas chambers or being shot in pits. The Nazis didn't advertise "Jews to be exterminated starting next week."

That's something that I have always wondered about, too.
There are photos of Jews kneeling in front of mass graves half filled, that they themselves had dug with a Nazi solider behind them pointing a gun at their head.
There is no doubt about what is going to happen.
If I was in their position, I would do something.
Probably, the most that I would be able to do would be to land one or two punches, or run 10 metres before being shot, but at least I would have inconvenienced the Nazis in a little way.
The only explanation that I can think of, is that the Jews thought that death would be better than the life that they were allowed to live.

Edited to fix quotes.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:31:10 PM EDT
A little understood part of the Nazis destruction of the Jews, was, they used the Jews history against them.

For 1500 years the Jews in Europe learned how Europe "worked" for them.
They would live in ghettos, and periodically there would be a pogrom.
Jews would be humiliated, abused, subjected to "taxes" run out of towns, and some would be killed.

However, some prince, church figure, or duke would be found with whom a deal could be struck.
Money would change hands, and everything would go back to the way it was.
(Minus a lot of money and a few unfortunate dead Jews).

The Nazis deliberately used this long history against the Jews, more or less assuring them that this was just another in a 1500 year long series of pogroms, and that Hitler, Himmler, or another "prince" of the Nazi party would sooner or later make a deal, and things would get back to normal.

The Nazis on this particular level weren't stupid, and they kept the deception up right to the edge of the pit or the gas chamber.

In short, most Jews simply followed their own instincts because no one could believe the Nazis could actually kill 10 million people.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:40:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
A little understood part of the Nazis destruction of the Jews, was, they used the Jews history against them.

For 1500 years the Jews in Europe learned how Europe "worked" for them.
They would live in ghettos, and periodically there would be a pogrom.
Jews would be humiliated, abused, subjected to "taxes" run out of towns, and some would be killed.

However, some prince, church figure, or duke would be found with whom a deal could be struck.
Money would change hands, and everything would go back to the way it was.
(Minus a lot of money and a few unfortunate dead Jews).

The Nazis deliberately used this long history against the Jews, more or less assuring them that this was just another in a 1500 year long series of pogroms, and that Hitler, Himmler, or another "prince" of the Nazi party would sooner or later make a deal, and things would get back to normal.

The Nazis on this particular level weren't stupid, and they kept the deception up right to the edge of the pit or the gas chamber.

In short, most Jews simply followed their own instincts because no one could believe the Nazis could actually kill 10 million people.



also, as usual, they followed their leaders...... right into the gas chambers. The great rabbis of the generation after the holocaust explain that while leaders usually have a 'sense' (not gonna call it prophecy) of what's gonna happen, during the holoacust there was a sort of 'hiding of the future' by G-d. Maybe some other religious people can explain what Hester Panim is..... kind of like G-d wanted this to happen, and didn't want to warn anyone. (while nagin has used hte concept too - I love that guy, he's so entertaining - word from that generation was that it was punishment for the Haskalah (it's early, I forgot what that is in english)
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:12:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:28:38 AM EDT
Jews with sufficient foresight did leave the country, but we're talking about the early thirties for the most part. It's very difficult emotionally and financially to leave one's country especially if one has a family. Also, one must acquire the necessary documents; exit permits from Germany, entry visas, etc. Not many countries were open to large scale immigration from Jews and wouldn't issue the documents.

Once the Nazis assumed power, things got very bad for the Jews very quickly. The first thing the Nazis did was to begin to isolate the Jews socially. They forbid them from holding decent jobs. This cut off the necessary financial where with all needed to pull up stakes and move. Then The Nazis started implementing contradictory policies regarding emigration. On the one hand they would forbid it. While with the other hand they would encourage it but only provided that the Jews would pony up all their cash and belongings in exchange for the exit documents. In this way the Nazis systematically excluded Jews from participating in German society and simultanously robbed them of what wealth they possessed at the same time pursuing a policy of getting them out of the country.

Of course, one needs to keep in mind that many of the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis had indeed left Germany to settle in other European countries. And what happened to them once the Nazis overran all of Europe? If you guessed that they were deported to the death camps, you guessed right.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:53:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Coolio:


Of course, one needs to keep in mind that many of the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis had indeed left Germany to settle in other European countries. And what happened to them once the Nazis overran all of Europe? If you guessed that they were deported to the death camps, you guessed right.

Like Ann Frank for example.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:56:22 AM EDT
JBravo223,

Your great grand father certainly should be counted among "The Ritcheous of the Nations."
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:18:03 AM EDT
Supposedly 97% of the Danish Jews disapeared in 1 night, 1 day before the Nazi's were about to start mass deportations. Supposedly the Danish police forces, and others up to and including their Royal Family, assisted with the mass evacuation, to Norway IIRC.

Romania NEVER allowed the deportations of it's Jewish citizens in WW-II.

Italian Jews weren't deported until the Nazi's overthrew the Italian government.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:00:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 8:01:54 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Supposedly 97% of the Danish Jews disapeared in 1 night, 1 day before the Nazi's were about to start mass deportations. Supposedly the Danish police forces, and others up to and including their Royal Family, assisted with the mass evacuation, to Norway IIRC.



More or less correct. In october of 1943 (following the martial law declared by Germany in Denmark in august of 1943 - when the Danes ended all cooperation with Germany) the germans decided that they were finally going to round up the Jews in Denmark and send them to concetration camps. There were about 7500 Jews in Denmark (most in Copenhagen). Fortunately, german officials let this slip (or leaked it) to Danish officials, and so it was known that the round-up was coming. There was definitely a huge effort to get the Jews out, some of it well-organized, others spontaneous.

About 7000 Jews were hidden, and smuggled to Sweden (largely with small boats and fishing ships - most free, but some "entrepreneurs" did charge the Jews for the trip ), but about 480 Jews were captured. Fortunately, because of the protest and demands by the Danes, the 480 Jews that were sent to camps were allowed to be monitored by the Danish government and were allowed to receive letter and packages - and never made it to extermination camps in Poland (which had been the original intent).

All in all about 100 Jews died total, either in the camp, or trying to escape the round-up. That gives Danish Jews the higher survival percentage in Europe.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:12:20 AM EDT
As many have said, we were not very kind as a nation in taking in the Jews. That said, many Jews did leave Germany and ended up all around the world. Many ended up in Asia. Many ended up in South America and Central America. It is a sad but interesting history to see how Jewish communities were formed all around the world, and in countries you would not expect.

The world was very anti-semetic back then. And in fact, most of the world still is. It just wasn't that easy to leave because there were not a lot of places to go. How this country could have turned away a ship full of Jewish childern and have then eventually returned to Germany to be killed is something I can never understand. It is, regrettably, a point of shame for this country's history (among others). Mind you, we are still the best!

On a side note. I do not respect the Europeans for much. But I do believe alot of their current messed up attitudes about the world is guilt over what happened to the Jews and other ethnic groups, that is then manipulated by the leftists. Remember, the French voluntarily gave up their Jews to the Germans. So, while I understand where the Europeans feel shame and guilt, I think they learned the wrong lessons from it.

Finally, everyone should go to the Holocost Museum in Washington D.C. It is an amazing and moving experience. While I am Catholic, the phrase "Never Again" is one of the reasons I own firearms and spread the word of ownership to all who have the intelligence to listen.

Never Again!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:16:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Supposedly 97% of the Danish Jews disapeared in 1 night, 1 day before the Nazi's were about to start mass deportations. Supposedly the Danish police forces, and others up to and including their Royal Family, assisted with the mass evacuation, to Norway IIRC.

Romania NEVER allowed the deportations of it's Jewish citizens in WW-II.

Italian Jews weren't deported until the Nazi's overthrew the Italian government.



GREAT POINTS. Thank you.

The Italians, Hitler's ally, did not deport their Jews. The French, however, did. So when ever you hear the French talk about morality, remember, they voluntarily gave up their own countrymen, and their childern, and women, and elderly, to an invading army.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:23:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:38:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 10:28:30 AM EDT by Coolio]

Originally Posted By DADX3:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Supposedly 97% of the Danish Jews disapeared in 1 night, 1 day before the Nazi's were about to start mass deportations. Supposedly the Danish police forces, and others up to and including their Royal Family, assisted with the mass evacuation, to Norway IIRC.

Romania NEVER allowed the deportations of it's Jewish citizens in WW-II.

Italian Jews weren't deported until the Nazi's overthrew the Italian government.



GREAT POINTS. Thank you.

The Italians, Hitler's ally, did not deport their Jews. The French, however, did. So when ever you hear the French talk about morality, remember, they voluntarily gave up their own countrymen, and their childern, and women, and elderly, to an invading army.



This situation was a bit more complicated actually.
There was a lot of backing and forthing on this issue and I cannot claim to remember all of the details. But initially, the French did not want to allow their Jewish residents/citizens to be deported. Then, under pressure from the Nazis, they agreed that Non-French citizen Jews, i.e. resident aliens (largely, originally asylum seekers from German persecution), could be deported from occupied France (In fact, they had little choice; the Germans had the guns). Then under continued pressure they were forced to capitulate to Nazi demands that ALL Jews living in areas under direct German occupation must be deported. There was similar German pressure and tactics in Vichy France.
A very good book on this subject about the mechanics of the implimentation of the "Final Solution" is "Hitler's Shadow War".

I'm not trying to excuse the French, who indeed did NOT do everything they could have and do not have a whole lot of which to be proud. I'm just pointing out that the situation was more complicated.


Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:10:33 AM EDT
I have a next door neighbor, now in his nineties, who left as a young man, first to Colombia, then here.
He said he saw it coming. His parents and sisters stayed because they had their lives established there and believed things would get better. They did not survive.
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