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Posted: 1/17/2006 11:56:44 AM EDT
Dad has been gone for two months as of today from lung cancer.

As far as I'm concerned, smoking kills.

vmax84
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:07:03 PM EDT
My great grandfather, lifelong smoker, died at 94.
My great grandmother, lifelong smoker, died at 98.
My current grandmother, lifelong smoker, is alive and kicking at 71.
All three are "lucky".


My wife's grandmother, never smoked nor lived with anyone who did (didn't live in a city either), has lung cancer, diabetes, and lost a leg to gangrene. In her case "it just happens, or she was in smoky restaruants in her youth, or..."

I'm sorry for your loss. I haven't lost my dad yet, and honestly I don't know how I'm going to handle it when he does go someday - we're very close. It really isn't possible to prove that his smoking did it. Some folks get lung cancer, and some don't. Some are smokers, and some aren't. It just is. In my family, people seem to live forever. We always joke that they're too stubborn to die.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:11:00 PM EDT
Lost my dad 3 months ago. Let me know when smoking kills a young person.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:15:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Lost my dad 3 months ago. Let me know when smoking kills a young person.



Is 52 old or young ? I will be 52 in May, heart , lungs, etc great. Skeletal structure focked. I bet I have a lot more awesome memories from motorcycles and cars than my old man had from cigarettes. He's been dead since '82. Really since 1980 as that's when the bomb dropped. My mother from LC since 98. An uncle on each side after that.

When that doc hits you right between the ears with "you have non-small cell carcinoma " you will not be thinking how much pleasure those cigs have brought you. More like "why me". Tough shit by then.

rj
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:19:33 PM EDT
If smokers saw how shitty of a death my Dad had, they might think twice about continueing to smoke. An awful way to die.

Watching him take his last breath of air will make a believer out of ya'.

vmax84
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:25:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vmax84:
If smokers saw how shitty of a death my Dad had, they might think twice about continueing to smoke. An awful way to die.

Watching him take his last breath of air will make a believer out of ya'.

vmax84



No, watching him die from lung cancer (not smoking) is awful. Blindly asserting that smoking was the actual cause is what some folks take issue with.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:26:15 PM EDT
Some of the other docs can correct me, but the last time I looked it up, the 5-year mortality once you've been diagnosed with lung cancer is around 70%....regardless of treatment.

Let's not forget smoking associated deaths due to vascular disease, stroke, heart attack, emphysema and other (non lung) cancers.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:35:02 PM EDT
A neighbor's wife smoked for ever and a day. It affected him with cancer and now dead, but she's just fine.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:40:36 PM EDT
I will use my dads eventual demise to impress upon my sons that grandpa isn't here because he wouldn't stop smoking.
I am a nurse, I know with his/my history smoking will make for a death that will be worse than it has to be.
Anyone in a acute care medical field will tell you, some people "look" like cancer, and do not have any "reserve" to fight it. He fits the bill.
Most smokers don't stop even after diagnosis....
I quit when my wife had our first son.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:08:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
I will use my dads eventual demise to impress upon my sons that grandpa isn't here because he wouldn't stop smoking.
I am a nurse, I know with his/my history smoking will make for a death that will be worse than it has to be.
Anyone in a acute care medical field will tell you, some people "look" like cancer, and do not have any "reserve" to fight it. He fits the bill.
Most smokers don't stop even after diagnosis....
I quit when my wife had our first son.



My youngest sister's two little girls have had it drummed into their 5 & 7 yr old heads that the reason that granny & grampa RJ ain't around is smoking and whenever they see somebody smoking they look at each other like "is that person stupid?".

When my old man died in 82 my mother couldn't stop. She was one of the tall, skinny , high strung types and she would have just burst into flames without cigarettes and alcohol. A year before she got diagnosed with LC she had a collapsed lung and then a relapse and had to be in the hospital for a few days and the DT's really set in. She had the ICU psychosis. It was scary. She was right back to drinking and smoking. A year later BAM ! 10 months later, on the day after my birthday, dead. Seeing that husk laying on her death bed is a vision I will never forget.

One of my dad's brothers quit smoking in 82 after dad died. He daid it really scared him. He died of LC about 3 yrs ago after being smoke free all these years. The rest of his family still smoked so it didn't do him much good.

My moms younger brother got LC and went into a hospice and didn't fight it. We went and visited several times. Toward the end he would say "Come to my funeral". He never suffered from denial .

With my experiences, a cigarette hanging out of your mouth might as well be a tattoo across your forehead "STUPID"

rj
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:36:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:

Originally Posted By vmax84:
If smokers saw how shitty of a death my Dad had, they might think twice about continueing to smoke. An awful way to die.

Watching him take his last breath of air will make a believer out of ya'.

vmax84



No, watching him die from lung cancer (not smoking) is awful. Blindly asserting that smoking was the actual cause is what some folks take issue with.




Blindly?? WTF. So there's not enough evidence of increased rick out there already? Your semantic objection is a fool's reply. I'll agree that smoking is not the only risk factor for lung cancer, but I think an 8-fold increase in risk is reason enought to avoid it. And that excludes all other smoking related deaths (other cancers, COPD, heart disease, etc.).

Where's that hiding ostrich emoticon?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:54:43 PM EDT
8 fold risk increase? I'd like to see that scientific evidence.

Does it seem logical that smoking isn't necessarily good for you? Of course. It stinks and most of us hate the smell.

The problem smokers and non-smokers alike have with throwing around junk science and conjecture is that it inevitably leads to a loss of private property rights. Is it too much to ask the govt. to produce scientific evidence before they tell me what I can and can not do with my own property?

Our elected tyrants are taking away our rights fast enough. Let's not make it too easy for them. They will get them all eventually.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:57:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:

Originally Posted By vmax84:
If smokers saw how shitty of a death my Dad had, they might think twice about continueing to smoke. An awful way to die.

Watching him take his last breath of air will make a believer out of ya'.

vmax84



No, watching him die from lung cancer (not smoking) is awful. Blindly asserting that smoking was the actual cause is what some folks take issue with.



Slice the pie anyway you like............I still miss my Dad and wish he hadn't smoked all his life.

I am, however, grateful for the time I did have with him on this earth and am extremely lucky/fortunate to have such a man as a Father.

vmax84
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:19:14 PM EDT
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer. She smoked almost every day of her life. She was in a minor car accident one day and had a few broken ribs, but that seemed to be it. They ran all sorts of tests but found nothing, and said she was fit as a fiddle, and sent her home.The Dr hounded her for years to quit smoking. Finally she did.
After almost a year, she had to be rushed to the hospital due to not being able to get her breath. They checked her out, and found that one of her lungs had completly collapsed, and the other was trying to collapse. While she was lying in her death bed she asked the Doc that got her to quit smoking what had happened, etc.
He told her that she had a hole in both of her lungs due to the broken ribs she had incurred. They could not re-inflate her lungs. She in turn asked him that if she had not quit smoking would she be where she was at. He dropped his head and said no. He said that if she would have kept smoking for another year or so, her lungs would have healed enough to stay sealed off. But since she quit when she did, and her lungs had not healed all the way, they opened back up and now there was no saving her. She was gone before the night was over.
The Doc felt so badly about his boo boo that he helped pay for the funeral. He was at the funeral every minute he could, and cried as hard as everyone else did. He still practices but with a little different outlook on smoking and smokers. He now says that if the people want to quit, he will help them. If not, he keeps his mouth shut about it. Kinda makes a person think.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:43:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Lost my dad 3 months ago. Let me know when smoking kills a young person.




Is 49 and 53 young to you? It is to me. My mother died at 49 from lung cancer, lifelong smoker. My father died at 53 had emphysema for the last four years, always with an oxygen tank, he died of lung cancer too. Not a nice way to go, trust me. Yep, some lucky stiffs live into there eighties, smoking all their lives, lucky bastards. Some don't.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:49:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:58:46 PM EDT
My father has lung cancer right now and is fighting it. He is going through chemo and radiation. He quit smoking 26 years ago. He was in stage 3 when they started the threapy. He's 76 and we're hoping and praying he still has more years left with us here. Some doctors give hope and some don't because the tumor is wrapping around his heart and they can't get to it surgically because of the risk factor. So, they're nuking it.

I just hope and pray for the best and take it one day/step at a time.

And, guys, check your boys and have the doctor stick his finger in your butt once a year. My brother got prostate cancer at 48. It was a very aggressive cancer and he went through some really radical stuff to get rid of it. He is now cancer free and going on 51 years old.



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:00:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
8 fold risk increase? I'd like to see that scientific evidence.

Does it seem logical that smoking isn't necessarily good for you? Of course. It stinks and most of us hate the smell.

The problem smokers and non-smokers alike have with throwing around junk science and conjecture is that it inevitably leads to a loss of private property rights. Is it too much to ask the govt. to produce scientific evidence before they tell me what I can and can not do with my own property?



Yeah, right. It's junk science until you get the diagnosis then run screaming to the oncologist for treatment, relying completely on the 'junk science' of cancer treatment instead of the 'junk science' of cancer prevention. Nobody wants to impinge your right to kill yourself with tobacco. Just make sure you are privately insured. I don't want to pay for it.

As a doctor I see it every fucking day. It gives me no joy to tell someone, 'Sorry, your lungs suck and are operating at 40% capacity, so that lung cancer is not resectable. Here's the number for Hospice, enjoy the next 2 months.'

Here's a few articles from a website which, ironically, attempts to refute tobacco as a cause of lung cancer. A lot of 'junk science' out there.

Pisani P, Parkin DM, Bray F, Ferlay J, Estimates of the worldwide mortality from 25 cancers in 1990, Int J Cancer 1999 Sep 24;83(1):18-29; "Tobacco smoking and chewing are almost certainly the major preventable causes of cancer today."

American Thoracic Society Cigarette smoking and health.. , Am J Respir Crit Care Med; 153(2):861-5 1996; "Cigarette smoking remains the primary cause of preventable death and morbidity in the United States."

Nordlund LA, Trends in smoking habits and lung cancer in Sweden, Eur J Cancer Prev 1998 Apr;7(2):109-16; "Tobacco smoking is the most important cause of lung cancer and accounts for about 80-90% of all cases of lung cancer among men and about 50-80% among women."

JAMA 1997;278:1505-1508; "The chief cause of death included lung cancer, esophageal cancer and liver cancer. The death rate was higher for those who started smoking before age 25. If current smoking patterns persist, tobacco will eventually cause more than two million deaths each year in China."

JAMA 1997;278:1500-1504; "We have demonstrated that smoking is a major cause of death in China...."

Hecht SS hecht002@tc.umn.edu, Tobacco smoke carcinogens and lung cancer, J Natl Cancer Inst 1999 Jul 21;91(14):1194-210; "The complexity of tobacco smoke leads to some confusion about the mechanisms by which it causes lung cancer."

Sarna L, Prevention: Tobacco control and cancer nursing, Cancer Nurs 1999 Feb;22(1):21-8; "In the next century, tobacco will become the number-one cause of preventable death throughout the world, resulting in half a billion deaths."

Liu BQ, Peto R, Chen ZM, Boreham J, Wu YP, Li JY, Campbell TC, Chen JS, Emerging tobacco hazards in China: 1. Retrospective proportional mortality study of one million deaths, BMJ 1998 Nov 21;317(7170):1411-22; "If current smoking uptake rates persist in China (where about two thirds of men but few women become smokers) tobacco will kill about 100 million...."

Nordlund LA Trends in smoking habits and lung cancer in Sweden. Eur J Cancer Prev 1998 Apr;7(2):109-16; "Tobacco smoking is the most important cause of lung cancer and accounts for about 80-90% of all cases of lung cancer among men and about 50-80% among women."

Websites:

JAMA Website: http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/sci-news/1996/snr0424.htm [link no longer active as of 2004]; "Yet huge obstacles remain in our path, and new roadblocks are being erected continuously," writes Ronald M. Davis, M.D., director of the Center for Health Promotion and Disease Prevention, Henry Ford Health System, Detroit, Mich., in urging a review of the effort against "the most important preventable cause of death in our society."

JAMA Website: http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/sci-news/1997/snr1203.htm#joc6d99 [link no longer active as of 2004]; "According to the authors, tobacco use has been cited as the chief avoidable cause of death in the U.S., responsible for more than 420,000 deaths annually ...."

JAMA Website: http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v281n2/ffull/jwm80010-2.html [link no longer active as of 2004]; "The researchers reported that deaths caused by tobacco...."

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:15:42 AM EDT
I can list web sites with questionable data too. You don't have facts. And don't get me started on worthless "hope it cures itself" doctors. I watched them murder my mother and put my 85 year old father through painful and useless but expensive (!) cancer treatment procedures that ruined the last year of his life. Yeah, tell me how fucking wonderful doctors are!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:18:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Az_Redneck:
My father has lung cancer right now and is fighting it. He is going through chemo and radiation. He quit smoking 26 years ago. He was in stage 3 when they started the threapy. He's 76 and we're hoping and praying he still has more years left with us here. Some doctors give hope and some don't because the tumor is wrapping around his heart and they can't get to it surgically because of the risk factor. So, they're nuking it.

I just hope and pray for the best and take it one day/step at a time.

And, guys, check your boys and have the doctor stick his finger in your butt once a year. My brother got prostate cancer at 48. It was a very aggressive cancer and he went through some really radical stuff to get rid of it. He is now cancer free and going on 51 years old.

When Dad was diagnosed, they gave him 1.5 years. He made it 2.0 years.

I can't stress enough spending as much time with him. I spent a lot of time with my Dad the last couple years, but now, it doesn't seem near enough.

vmax84

God bless and good luck.




Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:35:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:42:00 AM EDT
My mom & dad were 3-4 packs per day smokers (Winstons) for decades. Dad died of lung cancer in 1990 at the ripe old age of 52. My mom died of lung cancer 3 years ago at the ripe old age of 66.

I think they both really, really enjoyed their smokes but I think they really didn't like dying of asphixiation (a slow, slow painful death).

I don't smoke but hope I don't get lung cancer from all the 2nd hand smoke I was subjected to as a kid. You want to kill yourself, that is one thing but harming others is not right.


lawdog (I believe smoking cigarettes kills)
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:43:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
I can list web sites with questionable data too. You don't have facts. And don't get me started on worthless "hope it cures itself" doctors. I watched them murder my mother and put my 85 year old father through painful and useless but expensive (!) cancer treatment procedures that ruined the last year of his life. Yeah, tell me how fucking wonderful doctors are!



Wake up!!! The point was that the data is NOT questionable!!!

If somebody murdered your mother, then press charges, otherwise, STFU.

Sorry, your 85yo father suffered, but your second guessing assessment of his treatment is bullshit. First, would he have lived that year without treatment? I don't know! Do you? Hell, no. Was his treatment appropriate? I don't know? Do you? What training or expertise do you have to make that assessment? Most likely none. The bottom line on ANY cancer treatment is that the patient has a choice. You don't want treatment? Say no. Did your father say no? I doubt it. Wondering if the treatment is appropriate? Get a second opinion.

And I won't tell you how fucking wonderful doctors are. Most cases of sour grapes like yours are driven by shitty decisions by patients and families and their unrealistic expectations. Then the blame is cast on the doctors.

This gentle bitchslap is brought to you by your friendly, neighborhood doctor/murderer.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:47:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer. She smoked almost every day of her life. She was in a minor car accident one day and had a few broken ribs, but that seemed to be it. They ran all sorts of tests but found nothing, and said she was fit as a fiddle, and sent her home.The Dr hounded her for years to quit smoking. Finally she did.
After almost a year, she had to be rushed to the hospital due to not being able to get her breath. They checked her out, and found that one of her lungs had completly collapsed, and the other was trying to collapse. While she was lying in her death bed she asked the Doc that got her to quit smoking what had happened, etc.
He told her that she had a hole in both of her lungs due to the broken ribs she had incurred. They could not re-inflate her lungs. She in turn asked him that if she had not quit smoking would she be where she was at. He dropped his head and said no. He said that if she would have kept smoking for another year or so, her lungs would have healed enough to stay sealed off. But since she quit when she did, and her lungs had not healed all the way, they opened back up and now there was no saving her. She was gone before the night was over.
The Doc felt so badly about his boo boo that he helped pay for the funeral. He was at the funeral every minute he could, and cried as hard as everyone else did. He still practices but with a little different outlook on smoking and smokers. He now says that if the people want to quit, he will help them. If not, he keeps his mouth shut about it. Kinda makes a person think.



What kind of BS is that??? Her doctor told her that the fact that she quit smoking kept her lungs from healing? They didn't notice that she had punctured lungs after her accident?

I call...

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:53:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer.
[cut]



What kind of BS is that??? Her doctor told her that the fact that she quit smoking kept her lungs from healing? They didn't notice that she had punctured lungs after her accident?

I call...


+1

Kharn
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:58:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer. She smoked almost every day of her life. She was in a minor car accident one day and had a few broken ribs, but that seemed to be it. They ran all sorts of tests but found nothing, and said she was fit as a fiddle, and sent her home.The Dr hounded her for years to quit smoking. Finally she did.
After almost a year, she had to be rushed to the hospital due to not being able to get her breath. They checked her out, and found that one of her lungs had completly collapsed, and the other was trying to collapse. While she was lying in her death bed she asked the Doc that got her to quit smoking what had happened, etc.
He told her that she had a hole in both of her lungs due to the broken ribs she had incurred. They could not re-inflate her lungs. She in turn asked him that if she had not quit smoking would she be where she was at. He dropped his head and said no. He said that if she would have kept smoking for another year or so, her lungs would have healed enough to stay sealed off. But since she quit when she did, and her lungs had not healed all the way, they opened back up and now there was no saving her. She was gone before the night was over.
The Doc felt so badly about his boo boo that he helped pay for the funeral. He was at the funeral every minute he could, and cried as hard as everyone else did. He still practices but with a little different outlook on smoking and smokers. He now says that if the people want to quit, he will help them. If not, he keeps his mouth shut about it. Kinda makes a person think.



Why would smoking help promote healing in the lung? I don't get it.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:14:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 7:24:15 AM EDT by gardenWeasel]
Here's an oldie but goodie that gets a a few of the basics down:




Figure 2. The Emergent Integrated Circuit of the Cell
Progress in dissecting signaling pathways has begun to lay out a circuitry that will likely mimic electronic integrated circuits in complexity and finesse, where transistors are replaced by proteins (e.g., kinases and phosphatases) and the electrons by phosphates and lipids, among others. In addition to the prototypical growth signaling circuit centered around Ras and coupled to a spectrum of extracellular cues, other component circuits transmit antigrowth and differentiation signals or mediate commands to live or die by apoptosis. As for the genetic reprogramming of this integrated circuit in cancer cells, some of the genes known to be functionally altered are highlighted in red.



Hanahan, Douglas and Weinberg, Robert A. (2000). The Hallmarks of Cancer. Cell, 100, 57-70.
users.path.ox.ac.uk/~jcollett/PDF/cn2.pdf



Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:21:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kharn:

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer.
[cut]



What kind of BS is that??? Her doctor told her that the fact that she quit smoking kept her lungs from healing? They didn't notice that she had punctured lungs after her accident?

I call...


+1

Kharn


Big medical +1
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:53:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Lost my dad 3 months ago. Let me know when smoking kills a young person.



Many years ago I dated a girl whose younger brother started smoking at 14 or so. At 19 he died of lung cancer. I don't know if it can be attributed to the smoking or not.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:04:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:

Originally Posted By Kharn:

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer.
[cut]



What kind of BS is that??? Her doctor told her that the fact that she quit smoking kept her lungs from healing? They didn't notice that she had punctured lungs after her accident?

I call...


+1

Kharn


Big medical +1



That's a huge +1, total BS.

-James
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:59:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NickySantoro:

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Lost my dad 3 months ago. Let me know when smoking kills a young person.



Many years ago I dated a girl whose younger brother started smoking at 14 or so. At 19 he died of lung cancer. I don't know if it can be attributed to the smoking or not.



Doubtful. Cancer in the lung isn't necessarily lung cancer. I can't tell you how many people will tell me that their grandfather (mother, whatever) died of 'liver cancer.' But primary cancer of the liver is very rare.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:56:32 PM EDT
I have some expired nicorette, its kinda old but i want to quit so ive been chewing on it. Any chance the actually nicotine has dregraded so much that im chewing it for no reason. It tastes like shit but always has even when new
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 2:22:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Doubtful. Cancer in the lung isn't necessarily lung cancer. I can't tell you how many people will tell me that their grandfather (mother, whatever) died of 'liver cancer.' But primary cancer of the liver is very rare.




When my mother died of lung cancer when we eventually got the death certificate back LC was not listed as the cause of death. My sisters and I were really PO'ed but by that time we were so wrung out that we didn't want to fight it. The friggin bastards put down the organ the cancer had spread to that finally killed her. Well asshole, if not for the LC there would not have been any cancer affecting the rest of her organs !!

So there are lots of LC deaths every year not listed under the LC stat.

rj
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:05:25 PM EDT
Twire my friend you are as FOS as most blow-hard, self-important, half-assed doctors. My sisters husband is a doctor and his credentials are pretty good (I would be happy to wager they are better than yours). You still have no scientific evidence. Only anecdotal BS.

Just like your gun controlling friends at the AMA you think you are God. You're not. Now go console some of your patients grieving families.

FTR - My father did not suffer. At least you pill pushers finally understand how to alleviate pain. Or do you?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:50:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Twire my friend you are as FOS as most blow-hard, self-important, half-assed doctors. My sisters husband is a doctor and his credentials are pretty good (I would be happy to wager they are better than yours). You still have no scientific evidence. Only anecdotal BS.

Just like your gun controlling friends at the AMA you think you are God. You're not. Now go console some of your patients grieving families.

FTR - My father did not suffer. At least you pill pushers finally understand how to alleviate pain. Or do you?



The family outings must be hoot!

When presented with study after study, you resort to name calling because you can't refute the evidence, or if you have such information you refuse to present it. Sure you're not a liberal? That's a standard, DNC textbook play.

Please list the medical journals that you would deem credible and I'll get some references from them. Or is the whole scientific method to be discounted because you don't like the results fo the studies?

And FTR, have never been, will never be a member of the AMA. The MAJORITY of doctors are NOT in the AMA. Of course you knew that since after all you are practically a doctor...via marriage.

Smoke on, brother!
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:59:55 PM EDT
All I was trying to say, in a round about way, is if you smoke, consider quitting. It may (or may not) help you.

Watching a loved one die from lung cancer sucks. My Dad was 72 when he died. It was his life, and he lived it the way he wanted to.

But I still miss the man and wish he hadn't of smoked.

vmax84
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 6:51:56 PM EDT
I guess you missed the part where I said I despised the smell of cigarette smoke? But, then again, I'm sure you miss a lot. Diagnosises mostly I would guess. Google spike-health and read until your little ticker (which I doubt you understand) is happy.

Now, site a scientific study that provides scientific (yes...twice) evidence that smoking directly causes cancer and significantly shortens the life of smokers. Why not site the WHO's own study?

Family gatherings? How? They all smoked themselves to death! (I kill me sometimes....so to speak)

VN - again, sorry for your loss. My dad died at 85, a smoker since he was 11 years old. He died of old age. That's what all old people used to die of until the medical community found a golden teat! (That would be tit to you doc)
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 7:33:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
I guess you missed the part where I said I despised the smell of cigarette smoke?


Didn't miss it. Ignored it.



But, then again, I'm sure you miss a lot. Diagnosises mostly I would guess. Google spike-health and read until your little ticker (which I doubt you understand) is happy.


Hard to miss this diagnosis: The ICD9 codes-->297.1 or an outside chance of 318



Now, site a scientific study that provides scientific (yes...twice) evidence that smoking directly causes cancer and significantly shortens the life of smokers. Why not site the WHO's own study?


I've read it. Have you? Doubtful. Post the pertinent points if you think it will bolster your position.
It won't.

So just what criteria would a study have to meet in order to satisfy you? I can already tell you that no such study exists. Carcinogen 'A' in cigarette smoke, after years of repeated exposure on the rapidly dividing cells in the lung, uncover oncogene 'C'. That little cell eventually loses contact inhibition and grows out of control. But how do you prove causation. Its too much of a leap for your little brain when a study shows a higher incidence of lung cancer in smokers. There's a link.

Link, schmink that's not causation!!

Father to son: 'Now, Little 10mm Jr., you smoke if you want to. It won't hurt you.'



Family gatherings? How? They all smoked themselves to death! (I kill me sometimes....so to speak)

VN - again, sorry for your loss. My dad died at 85, a smoker since he was 11 years old. He died of old age. That's what all old people used to die of until the medical community found a golden teat! (That would be tit to you doc)



Oh shit! I'm busted! The entire medical system caught in the web of deceit and lies. Wrongfully condemning the tobacco plant and warning its faithful users that it would most likely be their undoing! Damn! I'll lose that $75 (before overhead) for going in in the middle of the night to treat those smokers.....
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:08:44 PM EDT
Gotta give you credit. Cute. Somewhat original. A little short on facts though doc. And I have read many articles at spike-health. Obviously you haven't.

If smoking is such a killer why don't our elected tyrants, with other "concerned physicians" outlaw the stuff???

And repeating what people say is bad bedside manner. Work on that a tad.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:59:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:

If smoking is such a killer why don't our elected tyrants, with other "concerned physicians" outlaw the stuff???



Gasoline, causes cancer
Benzene, causes cancer
various pesticides, causes cancer

alchohol - kills people
guns - kills people (I am pro gun, but there is no denying this)
cars - kills people
swimming pools - kills people
tobacco - kills people

Just because it is harmful to people doesn't mean the government would outlaw it.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:07:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
If smoking is such a killer why don't our elected tyrants, with other "concerned physicians" outlaw the stuff???



because they're making obscene amounts of money from taxing the piss out of it
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:33:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
If smoking is such a killer why don't our elected tyrants, with other "concerned physicians" outlaw the stuff???



because they're making obscene amounts of money from taxing the piss out of it



IIRC, we are also making money off of tobacco as the Tobacco companies have found a much bigger market than the U.S. in China.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:47:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rangerfreak:
I had an aunt that died from lung cancer. She smoked almost every day of her life. She was in a minor car accident one day and had a few broken ribs, but that seemed to be it. They ran all sorts of tests but found nothing, and said she was fit as a fiddle, and sent her home.The Dr hounded her for years to quit smoking. Finally she did.
After almost a year, she had to be rushed to the hospital due to not being able to get her breath. They checked her out, and found that one of her lungs had completly collapsed, and the other was trying to collapse. While she was lying in her death bed she asked the Doc that got her to quit smoking what had happened, etc.
He told her that she had a hole in both of her lungs due to the broken ribs she had incurred. They could not re-inflate her lungs. She in turn asked him that if she had not quit smoking would she be where she was at. He dropped his head and said no. He said that if she would have kept smoking for another year or so, her lungs would have healed enough to stay sealed off. But since she quit when she did, and her lungs had not healed all the way, they opened back up and now there was no saving her. She was gone before the night was over.
The Doc felt so badly about his boo boo that he helped pay for the funeral. He was at the funeral every minute he could, and cried as hard as everyone else did. He still practices but with a little different outlook on smoking and smokers. He now says that if the people want to quit, he will help them. If not, he keeps his mouth shut about it. Kinda makes a person think.



While trying to be sensitive to the loss of a family member, I have to say that this makes no sense whatsoever. By continuing to smoke her lungs would have healed? An auto accident a year before caused her pneumothoraces? Not plausible, and certainly not probable.

There's no way a doctor can stand at the bedside and tell a patient that her lungs "opened back up" due to having stopped smoking.

Sorry, but I don't buy it.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:00:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
If smoking is such a killer why don't our elected tyrants, with other "concerned physicians" outlaw the stuff???



because they're making obscene amounts of money from taxing the piss out of it



And legality of substance is WHOLE different set of arguments.

If I can ever find your much touted spike-health, I'll be happy to peruse the contents.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 6:04:18 AM EDT
T- spike-online.com....google.

OK T, let's talk business. I just moved out of the tax Hell known as Fulton county. I notice you are in AL, not too far, and I am thinking about a new doctor.

I could use a good exam in that area where the sun doesn't shine as I may be getting a hemorrhoid, am due a prostate exam and probably could use a colonoscopy. What part of Bamer are you in???

Are cigars OK in your waiting room? I think I know the answer but don't want to inadvertently offend your paying customers.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:57:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
I guess you missed the part where I said I despised the smell of cigarette smoke? But, then again, I'm sure you miss a lot. Diagnosises mostly I would guess. Google spike-health and read until your little ticker (which I doubt you understand) is happy.

Now, site a scientific study that provides scientific (yes...twice) evidence that smoking directly causes cancer and significantly shortens the life of smokers. Why not site the WHO's own study?

Family gatherings? How? They all smoked themselves to death! (I kill me sometimes....so to speak)

VN - again, sorry for your loss. My dad died at 85, a smoker since he was 11 years old. He died of old age. That's what all old people used to die of until the medical community found a golden teat! (That would be tit to you doc)



Anectodal evidence is deceptively reassuring.

Personally, I love it when people smoke. I've taken the tack of telling patients who come see me to double the amount they smoke.

Since I have 3 kids, and the oldest is 15, that means I don't have much time left to save up for college. The more people smoke, the more likely they are to come in with all the complications and medical conditions that go along with it.

Good for me!
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 7:22:41 PM EDT
But Astro, what if they die young from smoking before you get to suck 'em dry??
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 8:19:02 PM EDT
If they die young from smoking, they usually don't do it at home alone.

First, they'll come to the Emergency Department where (after they struggle for a little while), I can paralyze them, intubate them, put them on a ventilator and put a central line into their internal jugular vein and superior vena cava.

If I'm feeling particularly charitable, I may even sedate them enough to where they won't be aware of what's happening.

All that's worth lots of $$$ to me!

Smoke on, Brother!

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:35:18 AM EDT
Why not go ahead and just snuff 'em with a pillow. If they struggle in a way that would leave tell-tale marks.....well, you know what to do.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:50:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Why not go ahead and just snuff 'em with a pillow. If they struggle in a way that would leave tell-tale marks.....well, you know what to do.



They're snuffing themselves. I am mandated by law to do what I can to tune 'em back up and kick them back into play. Pointless, I know, but it pays the bills.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:13:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By astro:

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Why not go ahead and just snuff 'em with a pillow. If they struggle in a way that would leave tell-tale marks.....well, you know what to do.



They're snuffing themselves. I am mandated by law to do what I can to tune 'em back up and kick them back into play. Pointless, I know, but it pays the bills.



What a jerkoff! My father is lying in a bed dying of lung cancer. Hasn't smoked for almost 30 years and all you can think of is milking your patients for all the money you can? I guess your bills mean more than someones life huh? Go read the oath you took once again and have it sink in!

And doctors wonder why they're getting sued all the time...Hope you get a big one there doc and your kids have to go to a community college...
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