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Posted: 1/14/2006 6:18:58 AM EDT
By Thomas Harding Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 14/01/2006)

Britain and America are furious with Austria for exporting to Iran 800 sniper rifles that could be used against their troops in Iraq.

HS50 Steyr-Mannlicher .50 calibre rifles can pierce body armour from up to a mile, shoot down helicopters and penetrate Humvee troop carriers that have not been fully reinforced.

The weapons are highly accurate and fire a round called an armour-piercing incendiary, a bullet that the Iranians manufacture.

There are fears in the Pentagon that some will reach insurgents fighting allied forces in Iraq.

Iran's Revolutionary Guard is suspected of passing on bomb-making technology to Iraqi terrorists responsible for infra-red bombs that have killed 10 British soldiers.

A Foreign Office spokesman said there were "serious concerns" over the rifle sale and London had protested to Vienna.

"Although we did make our worries known, the sale has unfortunately gone ahead and these weapons could now fall into the wrong hands," he said.

Iran allegedly bought the rifles to combat drug smugglers pouring through the borders with Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The order, worth an estimated £8 million, was placed with Steyr last year and the company was given government permission to export the weapons.

A spokesman for Austria's interior ministry said there was no reason to stop the deal.

Iran is said to be re-arming after a £455 million deal with Russia for missiles and radar to ward off any air strikes on its nuclear facilities.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:20:47 AM EDT
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves. and I love how they throw "Armor Piercing Incindiery" in there like its some sort of new deadly projectile.

ignorant morons
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:23:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:34:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:36:26 AM EDT
What goes around comes around. I'm sure the Russians were saying the same thing when the US exported .50cal to Afganistan.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:37:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.



honestly I'm not terribly concerned over some of these "uber fiddys" that they have, they probably wont put the time in to train crews on them and realistically they cant do anything that a Dshk 12.7 machinegun wont, or a 14.7 machinegun for that matter.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:39:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:39:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
What goes around comes around. I'm sure the Russians were saying the same thing when the US exported .50cal to Afganistan.




Dumbass we were not Allied with Russia, or even on friendly terms with them. We were opposing forces for you to compare the to and say what goes around comes around is completely stupid.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:40:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?



welcome to the late 70's/early 80's when we sold them TOWs to kill Iraqis with
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:42:58 AM EDT
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:46:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
What goes around comes around. I'm sure the Russians were saying the same thing when the US exported .50cal to Afganistan.




Dumbass we were not Allied with Russia, or even on friendly terms with them. We were opposing forces for you to compare the to and say what goes around comes around is completely stupid.



We were at war with Russia either...we just had different views on Afganistan. The Russians and Germans had different views on us going into Iraq, so do that mean it would be ok for them to have given Saddam good weapons to use against us? In case you haven't noticed the world consists of more than the US and we can't control every other country. The US often does things that piss off other countries friend or not. Now it's being done to us...so what goes around comes around.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:49:03 AM EDT

800 sniper rifles worth an estimated £8 million


Did the Iranians really pay 17k USD per rifle? Suckers.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:59:46 AM EDT
Wasn't there an earlier discussion of this here where it was mentioned that the .gov contacted Steyr about the sale? IIRC, Steyr would be very interested to importing into the US instead of Iran but of course we told them to pound sand.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:08:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Arlis:
Wasn't there an earlier discussion of this here where it was mentioned that the .gov contacted Steyr about the sale? IIRC, Steyr would be very interested to importing into the US instead of Iran but of course we told them to pound sand.




Yes, it's true. The govt would rather that Iran have .50cal rifles than let semi-auto AUGs be imported again.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:11:18 AM EDT
Just remember... owning a sniper rifle doesn't make you a sniper.

We could always just find out what armory they are being stored in and drop a few MOABs on it.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:16:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?



welcome to the late 70's/early 80's when we sold them TOWs to kill Iraqis with



Hell we sold them 190 F-4s, 166 F-5s, and 77 F-14s too.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:19:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?



Different government in charge over there when we did that. BIG difference...

welcome to the late 70's/early 80's when we sold them TOWs to kill Iraqis with



Hell we sold them 190 F-4s, 166 F-5s, and 77 F-14s too.


Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves. and I love how they throw "Armor Piercing Incindiery" in there like its some sort of new deadly projectile.

ignorant morons




bullshit

we dont need our "allies" selling superb quality weapons to our enemies.

think a little
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:30:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:35:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By red65:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves. and I love how they throw "Armor Piercing Incindiery" in there like its some sort of new deadly projectile.

ignorant morons




bullshit

we dont need our "allies" selling superb quality weapons to our enemies.

think a little



well then thank our government for not allowing steyr to sell their goodies here in the states. like I said earlier, an iranian machinegun crew is a bigger threat than these rifles are.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:37:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i am a bit confused.

i have seen several of these around town over the last year. was the .gov impotation ban on those recent?




No, the ban that Steyr wanted lifted was the Bush 89 ban, so they could sell AUGs here again.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:38:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Arlis:
Wasn't there an earlier discussion of this here where it was mentioned that the .gov contacted Steyr about the sale? IIRC, Steyr would be very interested to importing into the US instead of Iran but of course we told them to pound sand.




Yes, it's true. The govt would rather that Iran have .50cal rifles than let semi-auto AUGs be imported again.



yep they gotta sell um somewhere and god forbid we get um and they become safe queens NOOOOO thats bad , but in banning them they drove Steyr's bussiness to places we don't like
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:39:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i am a bit confused.

i have seen several of these around town over the last year. was the .gov impotation ban on those recent?




Recent thing.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=422628
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:44:29 AM EDT
Just cause I feel like ing a bit, and this thread seems like the perfect place:

Anybody seen the film "Lord of War", with Nicholas Cage?

Overdramatic allegory yes, but with what we know now about Afghanistan, Iraq, Nicaragua, et al, isn't there an element of truth to it all?

I don't think that the United States is the source of all that is right and good and pure in the world....but then again neither is anyone else apparently.

Just a sec....

OK, discuss!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:45:14 AM EDT
These idgits still don't seem to realize that it might be able to do X to this kind of target at Y meters but you still have to hit the target to cause damage. Muslim militaries are not well known for individual markmanship or skills with small arms.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:00:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

We were at war with Russia either...we just had different views on Afganistan. The Russians and Germans had different views on us going into Iraq, so do that mean it would be ok for them to have given Saddam good weapons to use against us? In case you haven't noticed the world consists of more than the US and we can't control every other country. The US often does things that piss off other countries friend or not. Now it's being done to us...so what goes around comes around.




Geuss you missed the whole "cold war" thing.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:14:41 AM EDT
So the enemy of my enemy is my friend? I think Osama bin Laden proved this to not be a very sound strategy.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:15:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Busch308:
These idgits still don't seem to realize that it might be able to do X to this kind of target at Y meters but you still have to hit the target to cause damage. Muslim militaries are not well known for individual markmanship or skills with small arms.



+100000

You can sell equipment, but the skill to use it is another matter entirely. I doubt that there are a half-dozen natives in that part of the world with the skill to make a 1,000 yd shot no matter what you arm them with.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:22:49 AM EDT
Don't see the problem, Iran really does need weapons at the Afghan border as it's troops get shot up a lot there by the drug clans.
We sell F-15's to Saoudi-Arabia, that's pretty crazy too.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:28:00 AM EDT
Guess the Nazi are still alive and kicking. The Russians became like the Nazi and now are arming their Nazi-like friends... the Iranians. Now along comes our Austrian "friends".
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:36:44 AM EDT
This is lame. Pretty much every military in the world has .50 rifles in their inventory. Steyr told the US that they would stop the sale if they could sell rifles in the US and the govt said no way. Now Steyr is blacklisted the same as companies that sell biological weapon and missile tech to unapproved nations. .50 cal rifle = ballistic missile tech?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:44:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:49:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 9:52:55 AM EDT by LARRYG]
.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:53:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:
This is lame. Pretty much every military in the world has .50 rifles in their inventory. Steyr told the US that they would stop the sale if they could sell rifles in the US and the govt said no way. Now Steyr is blacklisted the same as companies that sell biological weapon and missile tech to unapproved nations. .50 cal rifle = ballistic missile tech?



So, our government would not give in to blackmail, huh?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:54:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cal:
So, first line fighters are pretty much okay to sell to Iran, rifles are not. Got it.



Again, welcome to the late '70s, early '80s.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:32:33 AM EDT
Is this kind of like during GW1 when everyone was hyped up about the superiority of the Iraqi Army's South African-built artillery?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:41:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
This is lame. Pretty much every military in the world has .50 rifles in their inventory. Steyr told the US that they would stop the sale if they could sell rifles in the US and the govt said no way. Now Steyr is blacklisted the same as companies that sell biological weapon and missile tech to unapproved nations. .50 cal rifle = ballistic missile tech?



So, our government would not give in to blackmail, huh?





Yeah,they prefer to be the blackmailer,not the blackmailee.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:43:46 AM EDT
It would not surprise me in the least if China (and Russia) were covertly helping the Iraqi's (or will help the Iranians).

What better way to see how your equipment performs against a potential enemy than to use a third party.


I agree with SWIRE on this one.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:50:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?




How about the US Government selling F-4, F-5, F-14, P-3 aircraft to Iran? Who cares what they have, they dont have the means to efectively utilize any of it and any war with them will turn into just another Iraq. Remember, Iraq was easily 3-4 times superior to what Iran could ever be, and we crushed them twice within a 12 years. I hope I get a chance at Iran.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:56:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By mcantu:
This is lame. Pretty much every military in the world has .50 rifles in their inventory. Steyr told the US that they would stop the sale if they could sell rifles in the US and the govt said no way. Now Steyr is blacklisted the same as companies that sell biological weapon and missile tech to unapproved nations. .50 cal rifle = ballistic missile tech? hr


So, our government would not give in to blackmail, huh?



Steyr wanted to sell Aug's to YOU!

But our government trusts Islamic theocracies with .50's more than they trust American's with .223 Aug's.

<­BR>



I guess they know who the good shots are!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:00:58 AM EDT
Wow, when did DiFi get so many memberships here? It's a rifle and you guys are acting like it can take down the space shuttle. Of all the weapons Iran is buying AUGs and .50cal sniper rifles are the least of our worries.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:02:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nf9648:

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.




Colt's website lists Iran as one of their customers, along with Saudi Arabia. Are you pissed at them too?

How about THE US GOVERNMENT selling TOW missiles to the Iranians?




How about the US Government selling F-4, F-5, F-14, P-3 aircraft to Iran? Who cares what they have, they dont have the means to efectively utilize any of it and any war with them will turn into just another Iraq. Remember, Iraq was easily 3-4 times superior to what Iran could ever be, and we crushed them twice within a 12 years. I hope I get a chance at Iran.



All of Iran's army isn't going to surrender without a shot though.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:09:32 AM EDT
simple solution was given Goverment said FU,

dont sell to them, and your not allowed to sell to us, what do you expect

I say good for styer, they made a good buisness decsion, they made an effort to regain the US market, but the Gov said no, as a buisness they need to sell to who ever is willing to accept and buy their product, Iran was willing.

since styer hasnt been in the US market forr some time, they are not really losing anything by the US gov not supporting them, we wernt buying its not like we were a major buyer of augs and their 50's
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:35:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By carguym14:
It would not surprise me in the least if China (and Russia) were covertly helping the Iraqi's (or will help the Iranians).

What better way to see how your equipment performs against a potential enemy than to use a third party.


I agree with SWIRE on this one.



I also agree that there is truth to this, however, I think China is helping out the insurgents in Iraq and also the Iranians, and Russia is helping out Iran only.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:39:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 11:40:26 AM EDT by NonConformist]

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it



+1 If Bush had just let them sell their AUG's here we wouldnt be hearing about this, but I guess AUG's in the hands of Law Abiding Americans is more dangerouse than Islamo-Fascists
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 11:58:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it



+1 If Bush had just let them sell their AUG's here we wouldnt be hearing about this, but I guess AUG's in the hands of Law Abiding Americans is more dangerouse than Islamo-Fascists


Wait a minute, aren't we getting AUGs in 2007?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:15:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
ok? if steyr didnt sell them the Iranians would have probably built some themselves.



Maybe, but selling 50s (or any other weapons) to the Iranians is still BS.



honestly I'm not terribly concerned over some of these "uber fiddys" that they have, they probably wont put the time in to train crews on them and realistically they cant do anything that a Dshk 12.7 machinegun wont, or a 14.7 machinegun for that matter.



+1
Small arms don't really mean anything in the big scheme of things.
Maybe if the import restrictions into America on guns were lifted....
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it



+1 If Bush had just let them sell their AUG's here we wouldnt be hearing about this, but I guess AUG's in the hands of Law Abiding Americans is more dangerouse than Islamo-Fascists


Wait a minute, aren't we getting AUGs in 2007?



Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:30:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it



+1 If Bush had just let them sell their AUG's here we wouldnt be hearing about this, but I guess AUG's in the hands of Law Abiding Americans is more dangerouse than Islamo-Fascists


Wait a minute, aren't we getting AUGs in 2007?



Steyr got its export license pulled...they might not be selling any firearms here at all anymore. It might be a different story if they were being made here though
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:50:52 PM EDT
The US had every oppurtunity to prevent this, yet they are more worried about us being armed than Iranians.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:54:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
they tried to sell them here, dubya wouldnt have any part of it



+1 If Bush had just let them sell their AUG's here we wouldnt be hearing about this, but I guess AUG's in the hands of Law Abiding Americans is more dangerouse than Islamo-Fascists


Wait a minute, aren't we getting AUGs in 2007?



Steyr got its export license pulled...they might not be selling any firearms here at all anymore. It might be a different story if they were being made here though



I think that's the plan.

As for the "Bad on Steyr" crowd, I'd bet things look a lot different if you're not American. It's a mistake to expect Austrians to come running for an American opinion every time they want to sell a gun to someone Austrians are basically OK with.
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