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Posted: 1/14/2006 6:05:25 AM EDT
This thread is a follow up to the one posted a few days ago about John Stossel's program "Stupid in America."

Great show, and very well done by John.

My thoughts:

WITHOUT EXCEPTION, every single government school teacher, administrator, Principal, Union Rep, and Superintendent either blamed the districts poor performance on "lack of money" - OR - they completely denied any problems at all with performance. To say that it was unbelieveable would be a nuclear understatement.

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.

No wonder the gubment schols fight so hard against vouchers. Half of them would close if vouchers became viable.

There is one area that I had hoped John Stossel would comment on more deeply: student behavior with respect to parental responsibility. While he did show some "hidden video" of a class that appeared to attended by primates, he didn't stress the parents' responsibility in teaching dicipline - NOT a school responsibility.

I don't have children (yet) but this sure does scare the shit out of me. I will definitely look into Home Schooling and private schools (if I can afford it).

Thoughts on Friday night's program?

CMOS

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:18:53 AM EDT
I watched it with my wife. Another awesome show by Stossel. Living in Los Angeles, nothing shown really surprised us. California had a chance to change things in this state last November, but the sheeple believed the Union commercials over investigating the truth. We have already planned to send our child to private school when she reaches middle school age. It will cost us from $8000-10,000 a year, but the mere fact that they are teaching her only what she needs to know in order to score well on the tests they take, has really opened our eyes.

Funny thing is, as my second "career", I will be getting my teaching degree and will probably end up teaching for the LAUSD for a while. I'm doing it because I believe I will enjoy teaching kids, not for any of the reasons stated. However, after watching the show, I feel my frustration level will be very high for quite a while. Not at the kids, but at the "system" that is in place right now.

People do not understand how important the voucher system is. If they had it here, I can guarantee a damn good private schools would open in some of the "poor" areas. It would change the landscape of education. But instead, these folks want to protect the same thing that is destroying their child's chances to move out of those areas and excel.

Shameful, but I also fault the parents.

Eric
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 7:19:14 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By Eric_Mayer:
Shameful, but I also fault the parents.

Eric

Yep. I'm not one to give crappy schools a pass and I think there's a hell of a lot to crap shoveled out to kids in many schools (both public and private).

But by far the MOST important factor in a child's education is the parents' attitudes towards education. And that starts from when the child is an infant.

Parents who consistently demonstrate BY EXAMPLE that high standards in reading, writing and math are CENTRAL to their lives and their children's lives will do a lot to overcome deficits in teachers' ability or curriculum. Those parents who blame teachers for their kid's inability to read or do math are simply making excuses for their own failures as parents.

Parents who constantly stoke the flame of curiosity in their toddlers and children can instill an attitude that absorbs learning rather than one that resists. Parents should surround their children with learning opportunities in the home (and I'm not talking about expensive "Leap Pad" gadgets and computer programs and such) and regularly USE the simple things like books, music, kids' maps and magazines and LIMIT TV WATCHING.

And it's not just the "educational" environment in the home that is so important - but it's the actual home "environment" that is equally important. If the parents are unattentive, self-centered, ill-mannered, aggressive and/or reckless in their own lives - most likely so will the kids be at school.

If the homelife of a kid is surrounded by hostility, abuse, instability, crime in the home and regular exposure to a rotating flow of lowlifes, thugs and bums at all hours of the day or night - that puts the kid at a huge educational disadvantage that NO school environment can completely overcome.

Most teaching done by parents involves teaching by-example rather than the teaching by-instruction done in schools. But even so, parents should still be heavily involved in instructing their kids in reading at all ages, the mechanics of writing and composition and all levels of elementary math. They should constantly "infuse" learning about science, geography, history and civics - especially in young kids. No doubt about it - Parents are the most important teachers kids will ever have. If that's lacking, the "second line of defense" are the schools and teachers. If parents do their job well, their kids will be far better off even if the schools aren't top-notch.



Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:20:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:23:45 AM EDT
I didn't get a chance to watch it last night as I had to work and the VCR didn't work. I am going to look for a vid clip later today.

I did see a clip of it on Good Morning America yesterday and I remember a girl saying something like "I don't think we are stupider". Excuse me "Stupider" isn't a word stupid.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:24:18 AM EDT

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.


I agree...........and .Gov's additional focus is EXPANSION of .Gov!!!!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:26:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:
There is one area that I had hoped John Stossel would comment on more deeply: student behavior with respect to parental responsibility. While he did show some "hidden video" of a class that appeared to attended by primates, he didn't stress the parents' responsibility in teaching dicipline - NOT a school responsibility.

I don't have children (yet) but this sure does scare the shit out of me. I will definitely look into Home Schooling and private schools (if I can afford it).



I don't think it was hidden camera. They said they couldn't get their own camera crews in but were allowed to give camera to certain students. Which IMHO is why the students were acting even more like primates than they normally would. They probably knew the footage recorded was for a show and wanted to "show off".

The kids that are the problems clearly have parents who didn't teach them any kind of discipline or structure. Blaming the teachers for not being able to control the kids just enforces the fact that parents think schools are daycares and not learning insitutions.

Closing a school down and moving the kids to a better school... yeah, that's the answer. Then the schools gets their stupid population bumped up and eventually that school will get closed down.

Make learning fun? Ok, that's fine for children, but where does that end? HS is prep for college for a lot of kids. If they go through HS thinking college professors are going to teach like that they'll be sorely disappointed.

The school faculty who think throwing money at the problem will fix it are about the biggest idiots out there. That's the same liberal plan for everything wrong in this country... Poverty... throw money at it. Health care... throw money at it.

Ultimately, nobody wants to take responsibility for their shortcomings. It's all a continuous blame game circle jerk with nobody stepping up to actually fix the problem.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:30:35 AM EDT

...What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching...


I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.


ALSO, parents have a responsibility to their kids and all too often they fail to live up to it.

School admin is to blame also. Set a standard that both the kids and teachers have to live up to.

If a kid doesn't toe the line in class, expel his/her ass. If a teacher can't to thier job, replace them.

Lets get some accountability and fer cryin out loud, someone incorporate some common sense!!!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:32:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By klutz347:
<Snip>

I did see a clip of it on Good Morning America yesterday and I remember a girl saying something like "I don't think we are stupider". Excuse me "Stupider" isn't a word stupid.


You're right.

I seem to remember an article in like Reader's Digest or something like that where a teacher was turning in reports with all sorts of errors like "He don't seems to be wanting to learn" or some nonsense like that.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:35:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By klutz347:
I did see a clip of it on Good Morning America yesterday and I remember a girl saying something like "I don't think we are stupider". Excuse me "Stupider" isn't a word stupid.


Like, it ISN'T!??



Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:44:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RED_5:

...What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching...


I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.


ALSO, parents have a responsibility to their kids and all too often they fail to live up to it.

School admin is to blame also. Set a standard that both the kids and teachers have to live up to.

If a kid doesn't toe the line in class, expel his/her ass. If a teacher can't to thier job, replace them.

Lets get some accountability and fer cryin out loud, someone incorporate some common sense!!!




Go ahead and try. Any teacher you fire today will be back teaching, somewhere inside of a week. There are no where NEAR enough teachers to go around.

I have a good friend who is an administrator and he fires 3-4 teachers a year . . . and needs to replace 5-8 a year because the teachers do not want to teach middle school.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:24:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CMOS:

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.



Originally Posted By RED_5:

I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.



Give me a fucking break.

While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that
went into teaching for the job security or money?

College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't
where the money is. They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH.

It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:27:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Eric_Mayer:
Shameful, but I also fault the parents.

Eric

Yep. I'm not one to give crappy schools a pass and I think there's a hell of a lot to crap shoveled out to kids in many schools (both public and private).

But by far the MOST important factor in a child's education is the parents' attitudes towards education. And that starts from when the child is an infant.

Parents who consistently demonstrate BY EXAMPLE that high standards in reading, writing and math are CENTRAL to their lives and their children's lives will do a lot to overcome deficits in teachers' ability or curriculum. Those parents who blame teachers for their kid's inability to read or do math are simply making excuses for their own failures as parents.

Parents who constantly stoke the flame of curiosity in their toddlers and children can instill an attitude that absorbs learning rather than one that resists. Parents should surround their children with learning opportunities in the home (and I'm not talking about expensive "Leap Pad" gadgets and computer programs and such) and regularly USE the simple things like books, music, kids' maps and magazines and LIMIT TV WATCHING.

And it's not just the "educational" environment in the home that is so important - but it's the actual home "environment" that is equally important. If the parents are unattentive, self-centered, ill-mannered, aggressive and/or reckless in their own lives - most likely so will the kids be at school.

If the homelife of a kid is surrounded by hostility, abuse, instability, crime in the home and regular exposure to a rotating flow of lowlifes, thugs and bums at all hours of the day or night - that puts the kid at a huge educational disadvantage that NO school environment can completely overcome.

Most teaching done by parents involves teaching by-example rather than the teaching by-instruction done in schools. But even so, parents should still be heavily involved in instructing their kids in reading at all ages, the mechanics of writing and composition and all levels of elementary math. They should constantly "infuse" learning about science, geography, history and civics - especially in young kids. No doubt about it - Parents are the most important teachers kids will ever have. If that's lacking, the "second line of defense" are the schools and teachers. If parents do their job well, their kids will be far better off even if the schools aren't top-notch.






Very well put.



+1


There are certainly tons of problems with the public school system (inlcuding the concept of tenure , the strong unions, etc.) but I believe the attitude of parents and discipline of kids is the crucial component.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:35:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:37:53 AM EDT by JoseyWales]
I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college. I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates. I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools. I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated. I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school. But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year. I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years. I am under age 35.

If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for.

PS.... People who send kids to private school also pay for the public school wasteril's tuition.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:37:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:38:24 AM EDT by jblachly]
What made me and my wife most furious was the segment on the "Rubber Rooms" where bad teachers are sent to read magazines and smoke and chat all day on payroll but away from students.

$20 million a year!! on teachers who are paid to sit around because we can't fire them but they can't be near students!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:38:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 8:39:28 AM EDT by wolfman97]

Originally Posted By klutz347:
Excuse me "Stupider" isn't a word stupid.



Oh, yeah? Then how can you compare all the people you meet on this board?

ETA: If "smarter" is a real word, then why isn't "stupider" a word?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:39:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college. I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates. I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools. I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated. I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school. But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year. I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years. I am under age 35.

If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for.



Keep in mind, however - that in wealthy suburbs that have strong tax bases, there are SOME really, really good public schools. Not all of them suck.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:47:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By CMOS:

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.



Originally Posted By RED_5:

I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.



Give me a fucking break.

While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that
went into teaching for the job security or money?

College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't
where the money is. They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH.

It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.




I agree that teachers didn't get into it for the money.

but if $$$ really doesn't solve the problem, what's being done with it? Someone is doing something with it. and if the admin and bod types are the ones coming up through the ranks, do you think that anyone making it that far would give all that money up?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:48:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Go ahead and try. Any teacher you fire today will be back teaching, somewhere inside of a week. There are no where NEAR enough teachers to go around.

I have a good friend who is an administrator and he fires 3-4 teachers a year . . . and needs to replace 5-8 a year because the teachers do not want to teach middle school.




Is there a perceived lack of teachers because of how small the class sizes are now? I was shocked recently when a teacher told me that she taught a class of 20 4th graders and also had two full-time teaching assistants in the class.

Jesus, when I was in elementary school there were 50 of us in the class and one half-wit nun teaching the lot of us. And it was dead quiet in that room except for chalk on the board and the electrical hum of neon lights. If one of the nuns or brothers ever felt the need to whip ass, they did - and if your parents found out about it they'd usually whip you as well.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 8:53:50 AM EDT
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results

my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:00:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Eric_Mayer:


Funny thing is, as my second "career", I will be getting my teaching degree and will probably end up teaching for the LAUSD for a while. I'm doing it because I believe I will enjoy teaching kids, not for any of the reasons stated. However, after watching the show, I feel my frustration level will be very high for quite a while. Not at the kids, but at the "system" that is in place right now.





I have a friend....her husband was in construction, worked hard to get his teaching credentials....
taught for a year and went back to construction.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:02:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:02:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By RED_5:

...What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching...


I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.


ALSO, parents have a responsibility to their kids and all too often they fail to live up to it.

School admin is to blame also. Set a standard that both the kids and teachers have to live up to.

If a kid doesn't toe the line in class, expel his/her ass. If a teacher can't to thier job, replace them.

Lets get some accountability and fer cryin out loud, someone incorporate some common sense!!!




Go ahead and try. Any teacher you fire today will be back teaching, somewhere inside of a week. There are no where NEAR enough teachers to go around.

I have a good friend who is an administrator and he fires 3-4 teachers a year . . . and needs to replace 5-8 a year because the teachers do not want to teach middle school.



did you see that chart of what they have to do in new york to fire a teacher?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:05:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college. I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates. I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools. I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated. I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school. But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year. I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years. I am under age 35.

If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for.



Keep in mind, however - that in wealthy suburbs that have strong tax bases, there are SOME really, really good public schools. Not all of them suck.



The funny thing about that is, at least around here.....those kids dont even attend the local school. Most attend a private school
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:12:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results





But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things....
and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it.
Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read? The principal sat there and said all was fine
I experienced that with my oldest. She would come home and struggle with math homework. What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears. Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.
I finally took her to SCORE for math. That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon. But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:31:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By CMOS:

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.



Originally Posted By RED_5:

I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.



Give me a fucking break.

While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that
went into teaching for the job security or money?

College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't
where the money is. They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH.

It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.





Reaper,

I agree that teachers don't get into this profession initially for money/job security, but in many caes then end up this way.

See the viseo of the NYC teachers union meeting? They were actually chanting, 10,000 of them, "We want to do what we want to do! Whoo-hoo!"

Unbelieveable.

The_Macallan is exactlt right about the environment and attitude of the PARENTS. I know parents who's kids were reading on a 3rd grade lever when they started Kindergarten. How'd they fo this? Easy. --- They read to them every single day. Their kids were so pumped with excitement that they might be able to "read like mommy does" that they just picked it up with time. Today this family's kids are 11 and 14 years old - both in advanced classes in (pretty decent and white) public schools.

There certainly are many factors that influence a child's education. To ignore ANY of those factors could "cost" a child a lifetime of missed opportunities.

CMOS

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:32:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results




But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things....
and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it.
Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read? The principal sat there and said all was fine
I experienced that with my oldest. She would come home and struggle with math homework. What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears. Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.
I finally took her to SCORE for math. That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon. But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.




mrsdrfrige, you did EXACTLY what i was saying--you saw a problem and took responsibility for your child and found a SOLUTION, not just whined about it

I was not endorsing Sylvan directly, though i did work at one for a time and i know their system works--they are indeed expensive, but what i never understood is cost VS value of education--people finance or make payments on just about ANYTHING these days--so you dont have the newest big SUV or a cool quad or all 100 video game systems--you are financing your child's education, which i think we all agree is second only to the morals and values you teach your kids

the other thing i was saying is many, many parents i work with put little to no value on an education--because they themselves got little use or value out of their own education--that mentality makes me ill
"That school sucks, it did when i went there and now my kid is getting the shaft there too--so its certainly not MY fault that my kid is failing and i shouldnt have to do a thing--its the school's problem, not mine"
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:34:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results





But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things....
and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it.
Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read? The principal sat there and said all was fine
I experienced that with my oldest. She would come home and struggle with math homework. What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears. Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.
I finally took her to SCORE for math. That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon. But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.



Then why was she in swimming if she couldn't get her homework done?
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:36:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college. I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates. I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools. I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated. I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school. But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year. I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years. I am under age 35.

If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for.



Keep in mind, however - that in wealthy suburbs that have strong tax bases, there are SOME really, really good public schools. Not all of them suck.



This not about money… we have tripled spending on schools in the last 15 years with virtually no benefit. Many of the worst school systems in this country have some highest per student expenditures and teachers salaries.

Contrary to the lies put out by the teachers union most school teachers are well paid… very well paid in some of the worst reforming districts. Iowa one of the best performing states year in and year out has some of the lowest teachers salaries... Newark NJ which has the one of the highest per student expenditures in the country is among the worst performing in the country.

The average salary in the town I live in is $48,000… don’t sound like a fortune but that is only for 8 months work a year. Most high school teachers only teach 4 hours a day and have one assistant per 2-3 teachers. Gee what a horrible deal.

This does not take into account the tax payer junkets that many teachers take during the summer to continue their education (cough). I know one teacher that has been to Canada, Russia, South America, and all over the US ALL at tax payer expense.

I said this is not about money but in many places it is… overspending. In many school districts 40% of teaching positions are administrative that never see a classroom, 40% where less than 10% will do.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:42:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By CMOS:

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.



Originally Posted By RED_5:

I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.



Give me a fucking break.

While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that
went into teaching for the job security or money?

College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't
where the money is. They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH.

It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.




Job security is a big reason that people get into teaching. In most public school systems, it is nearly impossible to fire an incompetent teacher. Studies have also shown that Education Majors, on average, have some of the lowest SAT scores.

One anecdote comes to mind. We had a prisoner once who needed a French translator. We had trouble locating one, so I went across the street to the local high school and asked the French teacher is she could help. She came over but it turned out that she could not carry on a conversation with a native speaker in the language that it was her job to teach!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:45:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
mrsdrfrige, you did EXACTLY what i was saying--you saw a problem and took responsibility for your child and found a SOLUTION, not just whined about it

I was not endorsing Sylvan directly, though i did work at one for a time and i know their system works--they are indeed expensive, but what i never understood is cost VS value of education--people finance or make payments on just about ANYTHING these days--so you dont have the newest big SUV or a cool quad or all 100 video game systems--you are financing your child's education, which i think we all agree is second only to the morals and values you teach your kids




But what I didnt "get" was how did the teachers, not just one either not see the struggle....They all claimed it was fine.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:46:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college. I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates. I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools. I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated. I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school. But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year. I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years. I am under age 35.

If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for.



Keep in mind, however - that in wealthy suburbs that have strong tax bases, there are SOME really, really good public schools. Not all of them suck.



This not about money… we have tripled spending on schools in the last 15 years with virtually no benefit. Many of the worst school systems in this country have some highest per student expenditures and teachers salaries.

Contrary to the lies put out by the teachers union most school teachers are well paid… very well paid in some of the worst reforming districts. Iowa one of the best performing states year in and year out has some of the lowest teachers salaries... Newark NJ which has the one of the highest per student expenditures in the country is among the worst performing in the country.

The average salary in the town I live in is $48,000… don’t sound like a fortune but that is only for 8 months work a year. Most high school teachers only teach 4 hours a day and have one assistant per 2-3 teachers. Gee what a horrible deal.

This does not take into account the tax payer junkets that many teachers take during the summer to continue their education (cough). I know one teacher that has been to Canada, Russia, South America, and all over the US ALL at tax payer expense.

I said this is not about money but in many places it is… overspending. In many school districts 40% of teaching positions are administrative that never see a classroom, 40% where less than 10% will do.





I phrased what I said poorly - I completely agree with you that it's not just money, and throwing money at failing inner city schools is pointless.

However, part of the point I was trying to make is that there are many public schools that absolutely kick ass, and are as good as good private schools. Many of them happen to be in wealthy suburbs - so maybe part of the explanation goes back to TheMacallan's point. Most like, in wealthy suburbs, parents set good examples and value education, and pass those values onto their kids.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:47:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results





But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things....
and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it.
Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read? The principal sat there and said all was fine
I experienced that with my oldest. She would come home and struggle with math homework. What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears. Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.
I finally took her to SCORE for math. That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon. But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.



Then why was she in swimming if she couldn't get her homework done?



first, I never said she didnt get it done
second, we are talking about 1st thru 5th grade
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:51:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:

Originally Posted By CMOS:

What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching.



Originally Posted By RED_5:

I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too.



Give me a fucking break.

While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that
went into teaching for the job security or money?

College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't
where the money is. They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH.

It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.




Job security is a big reason that people get into teaching. In most public school systems, it is nearly impossible to fire an incompetent teacher. Studies have also shown that Education Majors, on average, have some of the lowest SAT scores.

One anecdote comes to mind. We had a prisoner once who needed a French translator. We had trouble locating one, so I went across the street to the local high school and asked the French teacher is she could help. She came over but it turned out that she could not carry on a conversation with a native speaker in the language that it was her job to teach!



Yes very many people go in to teaching for job security and money… and because unlike the normal job market they will never be pushed to perform or required to show evidence they perform.

Teaching school attract many idiots/bottom feeders… not because teaching does not pay well enough but because teaching schools are run by idiots for idiots. All collage students know that the modern collage education curriculum is a joke… teaching schools are held in contempt because they deserve to be. Teaching school curriculums are among the weakest/easiest in a collage/university this attacks the weakest students. Combine this with modern outcome based teaching theory that emphasis self-esteem and sameness of outcome instead of excellence and performance and the train wreck was inevitable.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:54:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
mrsdrfrige, you did EXACTLY what i was saying--you saw a problem and took responsibility for your child and found a SOLUTION, not just whined about it

I was not endorsing Sylvan directly, though i did work at one for a time and i know their system works--they are indeed expensive, but what i never understood is cost VS value of education--people finance or make payments on just about ANYTHING these days--so you dont have the newest big SUV or a cool quad or all 100 video game systems--you are financing your child's education, which i think we all agree is second only to the morals and values you teach your kids




But what I didnt "get" was how did the teachers, not just one either not see the struggle....They all claimed it was fine.



LAZY
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:54:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By MrsDrFrige:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results





But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things....
and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it.
Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read? The principal sat there and said all was fine
I experienced that with my oldest. She would come home and struggle with math homework. What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears. Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.
I finally took her to SCORE for math. That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon. But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.



Then why was she in swimming if she couldn't get her homework done?



first, I never said she didnt get it done
second, we are talking about 1st thru 5th grade



I didn't mean my comment as an attack. But I don't see a need for 5 years of swimming lessens if schoolwork isn't going well. I see way too many parents running their kids to extra activities when they don't concentrate on learning. I think a majority of kids today have too many things to do, and don't concentrate on the most important job they have: Learning the three R's.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:55:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
I phrased what I said poorly - I completely agree with you that it's not just money, and throwing money at failing inner city schools is pointless.

However, part of the point I was trying to make is that there are many public schools that absolutely kick ass, and are as good as good private schools. Many of them happen to be in wealthy suburbs - so maybe part of the explanation goes back to TheMacallan's point. Most like, in wealthy suburbs, parents set good examples and value education, and pass those values onto their kids.




I will largely agree with that but even many of the best school systems don’t push students the way they should... excellence is a lost concept.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:57:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
I phrased what I said poorly - I completely agree with you that it's not just money, and throwing money at failing inner city schools is pointless.

However, part of the point I was trying to make is that there are many public schools that absolutely kick ass, and are as good as good private schools. Many of them happen to be in wealthy suburbs - so maybe part of the explanation goes back to TheMacallan's point. Most like, in wealthy suburbs, parents set good examples and value education, and pass those values onto their kids.




I will largely agree with that but even many of the best school systems don’t push students the way they should... excellence is a lost concept.



but if you PUSH students and expect things from them, you are too demanding or you may hurt their self-esteem, because they cant meet those expectations
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:59:20 AM EDT
The liberal brainwashing that goes on by the NEA is unbelievable. And I am talking its own members here, not the kids. What goes on with the kids is another long, long subject indeed.

I have had the interesting privelege of taking care of quite a number of foreign exchange students here in this country. It has been interesting to ask them what they think. Without exception they consider our curriculum a joke and I am in a state with one of the better public school systems in the nation. My wife comes from SC and they were easily 2 years behind what we were learning in WI.

I have recently left medicine and am looking into other things. Job satisfaction is more important to me than money at this point in my life(kids grown and gone, etc) and I have looked into several teaching positions locally. Not getting much of a response thus far and the system is set up to prevent those who don't have teaching degrees from doing so. I find that rahter interesting as I can only consider the advantages of having an MD who is expert in biology, chemistry, even physics and mathematics teaching our kids. Rather humorous in a way.

FWIW, my son struggled in Chem in his first year of college. He came home over Thanksgiving break and I spent a portion of each of 3 days with him. I started at the beginning because Chemistry builds on came before it. I took him thru 3/4th of his course and got him up to speed on all of it. He had only his final left and pulled himself up from a low C- to a B in the course.

One of the docs I worked with came from a HS where all the teachers had PhDs or MDs(lucky bastard). He could not describe enough how much of an advantage this gave him in both college and medschool.

Interesting world we live in. Too much gov't intervention and bureacracy.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:01:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:07:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

This not about money… we have tripled spending on schools in the last 15 years with virtually no benefit. Many of the worst school systems in this country have some highest per student expenditures and teachers salaries.

Contrary to the lies put out by the teachers union most school teachers are well paid… very well paid in some of the worst reforming districts. Iowa one of the best performing states year in and year out has some of the lowest teachers salaries... Newark NJ which has the one of the highest per student expenditures in the country is among the worst performing in the country.

The average salary in the town I live in is $48,000… don’t sound like a fortune but that is only for 8 months work a year. Most high school teachers only teach 4 hours a day and have one assistant per 2-3 teachers. Gee what a horrible deal.

This does not take into account the tax payer junkets that many teachers take during the summer to continue their education (cough). I know one teacher that has been to Canada, Russia, South America, and all over the US ALL at tax payer expense.

I said this is not about money but in many places it is… overspending. In many school districts 40% of teaching positions are administrative that never see a classroom, 40% where less than 10% will do.




You are uninformed about what a teacher's job entails. Let me tell you about what I did as a teacher, for a short time as the job sucks. I am currently changing careers.

The contracted hours were 8am to 3:15pm, and you were not paid overtime or given any other money. Sounds great, but the actual workday for me and 80% of the other teachers at the school I taught at was 7am to 4pm, then go home and work a minimum of 2 more hours each night. Then work at least 5 hours on each day of the weekend. If you didn't, lesson plans would not be completed, projects would not be ready to complete, papers would not be graded, etc.

The minimum I worked each week was 65 hours, 25 of them unpaid. Add into that unpaid nights for parent-teacher conferences, bake sales, school fundraisers, etc.

Materials: you will spend your own money buying materials for your class. There is never enough pencils, paper, posters, etc to go around.

Parents: suck. I had 35 kids I taught. Half their parents were horrible. I had single mothers tell me they couldn't discipline their child as she was "single". Others could care less as to what happened to their child.

Administration: sucks. Superintendents/Principals didn't care about the children, only about the "score" they got on a national test. Add into it "rules" that you can not discipline the child, as from the administration.

Kids: half were great, a true joy. The other half were horrible. In 4th grade I had many kids who could not tell time, couldn't write their name, didn't know their address or phone number, couldn't read, couldn't do basic math, etc. There was no help for these kids, as in reading specialists to help them learn to read, etc.

To boil it all down, the "Stupid in America" report didn't even scratch the surface as to what happens in public school, and how bad it really is.




Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:08:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results

my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!



100% totally agree. And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.


Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:10:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results

my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!



100% totally agree. And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.







playmore agrees with me??




Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:11:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results

my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!



100% totally agree. And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.





Fast.
National disgrace what we are doing to our kids.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:17:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 10:18:30 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Dance:
You are uninformed about what a teacher's job entails. Let me tell you about what I did as a teacher, for a short time as the job sucks. I am currently changing careers.

The contracted hours were 8am to 3:15pm, and you were not paid overtime or given any other money. Sounds great, but the actual workday for me and 80% of the other teachers at the school I taught at was 7am to 4pm, then go home and work a minimum of 2 more hours each night. Then work at least 5 hours on each day of the weekend. If you didn't, lesson plans would not be completed, projects would not be ready to complete, papers would not be graded, etc.

The minimum I worked each week was 65 hours, 25 of them unpaid. Add into that unpaid nights for parent-teacher conferences, bake sales, school fundraisers, etc.

Materials: you will spend your own money buying materials for your class. There is never enough pencils, paper, posters, etc to go around.

Parents: suck. I had 35 kids I taught. Half their parents were horrible. I had single mothers tell me they couldn't discipline their child as she was "single". Others could care less as to what happened to their child.

Administration: sucks. Superintendents/Principals didn't care about the children, only about the "score" they got on a national test. Add into it "rules" that you can not discipline the child, as from the administration.

Kids: half were great, a true joy. The other half were horrible. In 4th grade I had many kids who could not tell time, couldn't write their name, didn't know their address or phone number, couldn't read, couldn't do basic math, etc. There was no help for these kids, as in reading specialists to help them learn to read, etc.

To boil it all down, the "Stupid in America" report didn't even scratch the surface as to what happens in public school, and how bad it really is.





Sure I am uninformed... my mother was a teacher... my borther is now teaching. I know how our school system works and know how most teacher DON"T. Save the poor little teacher routine to someone that does not know better, it might fit you it does not most teachers.

You may have done 25 hours a week off the books most don't.

Sure many parent are part of the problem but MANY teachers are as well.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:18:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
... And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.





+1
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:19:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:
... And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.





+1



Entrenched everywhere and spreading…. A malignant cancer.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:21:58 AM EDT
great show. should be required watchinng at all republican conservative gatherings for info on the enemy
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:29:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:

Originally Posted By PlaymoreMinds:

Originally Posted By diabolical_chicken:
everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem

it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on

it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same

if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results

my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!



100% totally agree. And I'l go even further to say that the lack of personal responsibility is what is causing the ruination of this country.
It's a cancer and it's spreading.







playmore agrees with me??







It happens...but Dr. Jarhead agreeing with me??Now THAT'S FREAKY!
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:36:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 10:45:51 AM EDT by Grunteled]
There are quite a few problems in the public schools but I have to say it gets old to hear the vitrol aimed at teachers around here and on the radio. I have a job that involves configuring and connecting network devices. That job requires some special skills but nothing magical. My day consists of typing some commands, troubleshooting a failed connection here and there, and keeping devices and servers in general running order. Answer phone calls from users that have forgotten how to operate some software. Not always easy, but pretty low on the scale of 'work'. I work 7:30 to 4:30 and only on rare occasions do I bring work home or go in off-hours. I bring in over $60,000 for this work.

My wife's day consists of dealing with children who cuss at her, and parents who insist that any effort to challenge their child that is met with a failure today be stopped instantly. A school board that overturns any harsh punishments handed down when the parent gets mad enough. The same board that only wants you to teach to the test because... well.... once there's a test that's all anybody cares about. Children with home environments so bad they come to school stinking with hair you wouldn't wish on a dog and the staff pay to have it cut and washed. Kids with no more chance of success in math than my neighbors cat who still are supposed to perform to state standards on tests because GWB said they must - no exceptions. Parents who refuse to have their children serve a dentention because she is "a stupid bitch that hands out detentions for no reason". A little girl who is so abused at home she asks if we would could adopt her when my wife takes an intrest in her and gets her through 7th grade. Paperwork that increases with each year. The possibility of being sued personally for any mistake, personal or district imposed. Most days she's working 10 - 12 hours and rarely does she not have something from work she's doing at home. Giving kids supplys from our money that their parents either refuse to buy because "the school should pay for that", or simply can't afford to buy because they spend to much on booze/dope/cigs.

For this job she is paid less than $35,000 with pretty sad benefits. To hold her Special-ED cert, she is required to obtain a Masters Degree at her cost, and to attend classes at her cost for each subject she teaches.

Now. Why on gods earth would there be a shortage of good people willing to do this job? Would you obtain a masters degree for a job that requires more work and pays less than managing a local Quick-Trip? I sure as hell would not, I don't need one for my job and I make double her salary.

There are some really bad teachers. They are usually the ones near retirement or who got into the job as 'busy work' who are married to big earners but feel they need something to do. Most of the other teachers I know work pretty damn hard too. There are some that there needs to be a way to shed, and I don't see eye-to-eye with the uninon on a lot. They do help the teachers fight some political bullshit that sees less talk radio attention than when they defend the teacher that is accused of child abuse though.

Like most other things, there is not one thing wrong but a multitude of issues. It sure seems the easy thing to do is blame them lazy teachers while ingnoring a society that wants to pay rock bottom dollar for the service, wants top notch results, and individual attention to thier child. Make sure to really disipline every child.... except mine that is, by the way. What we have created today sucks, with some exceptions, it's failing overall, and every time we think we tweak it to make it better we just end up piling more trash on the heap.

Sorry, but I had to say it. I know lots of people will keep putting it all on 'greedy', 'tenure loving' teachers, but that is just not what I see in most of the good teachers we know.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:39:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
What made me and my wife most furious was the segment on the "Rubber Rooms" where bad teachers are sent to read magazines and smoke and chat all day on payroll but away from students.

$20 million a year!! on teachers who are paid to sit around because we can't fire them but they can't be near students!



Another example of unions ruining America.
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