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Posted: 1/6/2006 6:49:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 6:53:23 PM EDT by smlockeiii]
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
1 hour, 19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - An unreleased Pentagon study of fatal torso wounds to Marines killed in Iraq found that most might have been prevented or minimized if they had been wearing improved body armor.

The study last summer by the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner looked at 93 fatal wounds from the start of the war in March 2003 through June 2005 and concluded that 74 of them were bullet or shrapnel wounds to shoulders or areas of the torso not protected by ceramic armor plating.

The findings underscore the difficulty facing the Army and Marine Corps in providing the optimum level of body armor protection in a war against an insurgency whose tactics are constantly changing. Both the Army and the Marine Corps have weighed the expected payoff in additional safety from extra armor against the measurable loss of combat effectiveness from too much armor.

<snip>

eta: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060107/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_body_armor

Didn't know if this might be a dupe. Seems straight forward enough.

My daughter is headed for the sandbox in a couple of months with her unit (second trip). Helo mechanic.

As I have been retired for some time, would someone give a brief on the current body armor?
The daughter-unit says she has "air warrior" type gear.

Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:50:37 PM EDT
this idiot seems to want these guys to get ceramic armor body casts or something
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:01:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 7:04:30 PM EDT by vintovka]
Air warior is good stuff, same level of protection as "interceptor" armor. level 3 kevlar vest, trauma plate over torso, integrated extraction harness. camel back slot, no shoulder protection that I know of. If she has any extra kevlar have her sit on it to protect from small arms fire , unless of course her bird has BASS; in which case she is flying in a tank.

tell her good luck safe skies.

also if you google FT Rucker and air warrior you can find all the high speed kit they issue out these days

vin
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:02:31 PM EDT
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:04:10 PM EDT
No warfighter would ever die in conflict if we encased them in a vest made from 12" of rolled homogenous steel. But that's just not practical. Body armor is a compromise between protection and weight & mobility.

Kharn
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:23:57 PM EDT
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:26:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:29:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walrus:
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.



Indeed; however, if death could be prevented by providing our soldiers with better body armor, or, in some cases, any body armor at all, and we fail to provide it, we are added to the list of those responsible for our men's deaths.

My motto is,"if you say you support the war, PROVE IT!". Either join the military yourself or donate to those that are fighting for your freedom, otherwise your words ring hollow.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:29:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 7:30:42 PM EDT by Andreuha]
One vote for accelerating all research leading upto our Mk.1 (first operational) Power Armor unit.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:41:51 PM EDT
Body Armor causes causality's. Isn't that like guns causes crime.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:56:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By walrus:
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.



+1 The reality of war is unfortunetly that men die. You just have to kill more of the motherfuckers than they kill of yours.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:34:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 8:40:10 PM EDT by MudBug]

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think that old_painless disproved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:35:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think tha old_painless dispoved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.



no, but it does cause the bullet to start tumbling prior to contacting the vest, giving it more surface area to "catch" it on
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:37:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By walrus:
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.



Indeed; however, if death could be prevented by providing our soldiers with better body armor, or, in some cases, any body armor at all, and we fail to provide it, we are added to the list of those responsible for our men's deaths.

My motto is,"if you say you support the war, PROVE IT!". Either join the military yourself or donate to those that are fighting for your freedom, otherwise your words ring hollow.



If that is directed at me, I've all ready submitted my application to the Marine Corps for the officer PLC program, thanks.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:39:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think tha old_painless dispoved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.



no, but it does cause the bullet to start tumbling prior to contacting the vest, giving it more surface area to "catch" it on




True, I hadn't thought about how well it would work when paired with standard armor.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:45:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By smlockeiii:
By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
1 hour, 19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - An unreleased Pentagon study of fatal torso wounds to Marines killed in Iraq found that most might have been prevented or minimized if they had been wearing improved body armor.

The study last summer by the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner looked at 93 fatal wounds from the start of the war in March 2003 through June 2005 and concluded that 74 of them were bullet or shrapnel wounds to shoulders or areas of the torso not protected by ceramic armor plating.

The findings underscore the difficulty facing the Army and Marine Corps in providing the optimum level of body armor protection in a war against an insurgency whose tactics are constantly changing. Both the Army and the Marine Corps have weighed the expected payoff in additional safety from extra armor against the measurable loss of combat effectiveness from too much armor.

<snip>

eta: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060107/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_body_armor

Didn't know if this might be a dupe. Seems straight forward enough.

My daughter is headed for the sandbox in a couple of months with her unit (second trip). Helo mechanic.

As I have been retired for some time, would someone give a brief on the current body armor?
The daughter-unit says she has "air warrior" type gear.

Thanks in advance




There is a point at which loss of combat effectiveness is more likely to get you killed… no matter what body armor you have.

To protect those Marines from “bullet or shrapnel wounds to shoulders or areas of the torso not protected by ceramic armor plating” would probably weight them down to the extent that they become more likely to be killed. There is absolutely a point at which the extra weight becomes a liability and not an asset.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:47:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think tha old_painless dispoved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.



no, but it does cause the bullet to start tumbling prior to contacting the vest, giving it more surface area to "catch" it on



Even 7.62 x 39?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:53:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think tha old_painless dispoved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.



no, but it does cause the bullet to start tumbling prior to contacting the vest, giving it more surface area to "catch" it on



Even 7.62 x 39?



they dont call it "wonder" bread for nothing
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:55:00 PM EDT
I think I would blame the bullets and sharpnel from IEDs/VBIEDs.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:57:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 8:58:38 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's




I think tha old_painless dispoved that old wives tale.

Contrary to popular belief, wonderbread will not stop a bullet.



no, but it does cause the bullet to start tumbling prior to contacting the vest, giving it more surface area to "catch" it on



Even 7.62 x 39?



they dont call it "wonder" bread for nothing



I guess so...

I will have to get a couple of loafs for the nightstand.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:00:33 PM EDT
"Hey Sarge, I'm glad the folks back home keep sending us more body armor. But this is getting ridiculous! How do I pee in this suit?"

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:09:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By walrus:
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.



Indeed; however, if death could be prevented by providing our soldiers with better body armor, or, in some cases, any body armor at all, and we fail to provide it, we are added to the list of those responsible for our men's deaths.

My motto is,"if you say you support the war, PROVE IT!". Either join the military yourself or donate to those that are fighting for your freedom, otherwise your words ring hollow.



I 'donate' every two weeks when I get a pay stub, under the heading 'FICA' Every taxpayer is a supporter, whether they like it or not. You don't have to join, not that I haven't thought about it, or even donate extra to suppport our troops to support them. The moral and emotional support is just as important. To say otherwise is a slap in the face to all the military wives and familes.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:14:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's



You know, that is going to sound like the stupidest thing someone ever read, if that someone does not spend way the hell too much time on AR15.com.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:16:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David0858:

Originally Posted By Social_Zombie:
what i dont understand is....

why they havent started issuing loaves of bread to duct tape to LBV's



You know, that is going to sound like the stupidest thing someone ever read, if that someone does not spend way the hell too much time on AR15.com.




That deserves a full power shot.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:19:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZootTX:
I 'donate' every two weeks when I get a pay stub, under the heading 'FICA' Every taxpayer is a supporter, whether they like it or not. You don't have to join, not that I haven't thought about it, or even donate extra to suppport our troops to support them. The moral and emotional support is just as important. To say otherwise is a slap in the face to all the military wives and familes.



and you dont have a fucking clue as to what FICA is this might help a bit
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:20:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZootTX:

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:

Originally Posted By walrus:
I'd blame many of the Iraq casualites on FUCKING INSURGENTS.



Indeed; however, if death could be prevented by providing our soldiers with better body armor, or, in some cases, any body armor at all, and we fail to provide it, we are added to the list of those responsible for our men's deaths.

My motto is,"if you say you support the war, PROVE IT!". Either join the military yourself or donate to those that are fighting for your freedom, otherwise your words ring hollow.



I 'donate' every two weeks when I get a pay stub, under the heading 'FICA' Every taxpayer is a supporter, whether they like it or not. You don't have to join, not that I haven't thought about it, or even donate extra to suppport our troops to support them. The moral and emotional support is just as important. To say otherwise is a slap in the face to all the military wives and familes.



Just as you must support abortion since you pay tax dollars that end up going towards abortions, or support welfare because your taxes go to that too. No, tax dollars are something that are taken from us whether we support the war or not, so it really doesn't show you support the troops.

As for the families of our soldiers, I think that the sacrifice and committment of their brother/father/husband/son to the war in Iraq is enough of a support.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:40:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vintovka:
Air warior is good stuff, same level of protection as "interceptor" armor. level 3 kevlar vest, trauma plate over torso, integrated extraction harness. camel back slot, no shoulder protection that I know of. If she has any extra kevlar have her sit on it to protect from small arms fire , unless of course her bird has BASS; in which case she is flying in a tank.

tell her good luck safe skies.

also if you google FT Rucker and air warrior you can find all the high speed kit they issue out these days

vin



I got a bit...

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:31:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 11:33:29 PM EDT by JBravo223]

Originally Posted By PreMed_Gunner:


My motto is,"if you say you support the war, PROVE IT!". Either join the military yourself or donate to those that are fighting for your freedom, otherwise your words ring hollow.




hey guy... I work 14 hours a day and pay taxes on the money I earn. I support the war and so do my tax dollars. My tax dollars (40k per year) go to paying for things like war.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:33:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 11:40:32 PM EDT by ElCamino]
You know, I bet a lot of guys got killed by their inability to fly, as well.

Some people just need to STFU. This has become a nation of spineless pussies. Oh noes! It's a bloodbath! Somebody forgot to issue superman suits!!1!11

ETA: I'm all for body armor and all that, but it doesn't matter. You could ship people off in armor that stopped everything short of an RPG head to toe, and you'd read reports about how our new Heavy Armored Infantry Starcraft Space Marines are insufficiently protected against direct hits from RPGs, a common weapon used by the enemy.

You could have an a Humvee run over a small tactical nuke, and Wolf Blitzer would have been complaining about the lack of armor on the vehicle, when that was the bitch. Fortunately, that bullshit is passe, now.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:48:04 AM EDT
While I'm sure that the troops would love to be encased in armor head to toe, it just isn't practical with our current technology. The armor load is heavy enough. If you increase it much more you reduce mobility and increase fatigue.

I'm sure this debate went on in Roman times too you know. So and so wanted better armor for the troops, when the current issue was what, 60 lbs? So it didn't cover the arms so well, or the legs. It was the best they could do at the time...now if someone invents a new steel alloy that is 1/10th the weight of regular steel, heck even a ceramic composite that's 25% the weight of current designs, great.

It's easy to stand on the sidelines and bitch about this and that, when you've never even tried on the current issue armor. Load that critic up with current issue armor, and a typical combat load, and then see if he wants to add 10-20lbs more to that. Now wear it in 120 degrees dude...
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