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Posted: 1/6/2006 4:25:56 PM EDT
i understand from the many posts i've read here that hollowpoint is significantly more lethal than ball ammo. but, why? Just because it expands and is more likely to hit something that bleeds? I've read that ball ammo can go right through a person and the hollowpoint will expand and transfer more energy to the target. so what? Is the transfer of energy that important? The goal is to induce bleeding, is it not? Whenever i see pics of hollowpoints that have expanded, they don't seem to expand -that- much larger. If the only hits that count are direct hits, to the brain, heart, aorta, etc., then expansion should make no difference; but it does seem to. Why?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:27:14 PM EDT
Ball ammo merely punches a hole the size of the bullet.

Therefore bigger is better in that regard.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:29:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:30:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 4:31:19 PM EDT by mayday]

Originally Posted By sigarkar:
i understand from the many posts i've read here that hollowpoint is significantly more lethal than ball ammo. but, why? Just because it expands and is more likely to hit something that bleeds? I've read that ball ammo can go right through a person and the hollowpoint will expand and transfer more energy to the target. so what? Is the transfer of energy that important? The goal is to induce bleeding, is it not? Whenever i see pics of hollowpoints that have expanded, they don't seem to expand -that- much larger. If the only hits that count are direct hits, to the brain, heart, aorta, etc., then expansion should make no difference; but it does seem to. Why?



This is a very complex topic and one where there are many opinions.

I'll give you just one more reason why HP is more lethal: ball ammo sepparates or pushes away many types of tissue without destroying it. Such as veins and some muscles. But HP ammo, with its blunt, somewhat sharp angled leading-edge with tend to "cut" this type of tissue, causing more bleeding and damage.

So instead of pushing aside, HP ammo cuts tissue. But like I said this is one of MANY things to consider.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:30:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 4:31:09 PM EDT by ctprelude]
HPs will also tear apart tissue/arteries/veins as it goes through the body, which obviously will cause more damage.

ETA: looks like some people beat me to it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:46:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mayday:
This is a very complex topic and one where there are many opinions.

I'll give you just one more reason why HP is more lethal: ball ammo sepparates or pushes away many types of tissue without destroying it. Such as veins and some muscles. But HP ammo, with its blunt, somewhat sharp angled leading-edge with tend to "cut" this type of tissue, causing more bleeding and damage.

So instead of pushing aside, HP ammo cuts tissue. But like I said this is one of MANY things to consider.



+1

And the diameter of the projectile makes a huge difference in the 'volume' of tissue destroyed. Ball ammo is like pushing a metal rod of the same diameter of the bullet. HP ammo expands into a much bigger rod of metal and destroys far more tissue which means more bleeding and destruction of lung tissue/bronchi. You will stop the threat from your target faster with HP ammo.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:58:22 PM EDT
the only thing I can put up quick to show a diff between the two is the 308 ball and 308 hp




Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:05:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:08:12 PM EDT by FMD]

Originally Posted By sigarkar:
Whenever i see pics of hollowpoints that have expanded, they don't seem to expand -that- much larger. If the only hits that count are direct hits, to the brain, heart, aorta, etc., then expansion should make no difference; but it does seem to. Why?



I think you might be suprised by what a good JHP will expand to:


.45ACP 230 Gr. Federal HST JHP

I'm stealing an image from Fedgunner here (apologies, pal), but you get the point. A good HP will expand 50-100% of it's original diameter. Edit: Meaning you have a 50-100% greater chance with a HP of hitting something vital over a regular FMJ/RN bullet.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:07:19 PM EDT
I prefer JHP ammo, not because of increased lethality, because I'm not convinced it helps much with lethality, but because it reduces the chances of through-and-through wounds, thereby lessening liability for me. The very last thing I want is a FMJ .45 passing through a bad guy and taking off at an odd angle and nailing some toddler.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:11:11 PM EDT
Anything that goes through the target is wasted energy. It could take a while to bleed through just a hole through your body. You put a JHP into someone it messes a lot of stuff up inside and makes it a lot harder to repair.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:17:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:23:22 PM EDT by fossil_fuel]

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
the only thing I can put up quick to show a diff between the two is the 308 ball and 308 hp

img463.imageshack.us/img463/2968/308winchester5vd.jpg
img463.imageshack.us/img463/7834/m80762nato6hm.jpg




thats a .308 soft point, not a hollow point, which fragmented, not just expanded. i don't really think it's fair to use that in a discussion of HP vs ball.

because of it's greater final diameter and better tissue-disrupting ability, HP is usually better than ball as long as it has sufficient penetration. if you're shooting .32 auto or some other weak round which doesn't penetrate well, you might want to consider using ball so you have a better chance of penetrating deeply enough to reach the vitals.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:24:55 PM EDT
HP expands and usually spends all energy in the target. Thus causing more damage.

FMJ penetrates better though.


Which is why during the winter, when people wear heavy clothes, I run a mix of FMJ and HP.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:25:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
the only thing I can put up quick to show a diff between the two is the 308 ball and 308 hp

img463.imageshack.us/img463/2968/308winchester5vd.jpg
img463.imageshack.us/img463/7834/m80762nato6hm.jpg




thats a .308 soft point, not a hollow point, which fragmented, not just expanded. i don't really think it's fair to use that in a discussion of HP vs ball.

because of it's greater final diameter and better tissue-disrupting ability, HP is usually better than ball as long as it has sufficient penetration. if you're shooting .32 auto or some other weak round which doesn't penetrate well, you might want to consider using ball so you have a better chance of penetrating deeply enough to reach the vitals.



ooo good point sry, I'll get some diff pics doh
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:27:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 7:51:32 PM EDT by AeroE]
The only addition I am going to make is that you must disciminate amongst the type of hollow point bullet.

Hollow point target bullets with thick jackets expand no better than ball ammo. Hollow point bullets designed for hunting expand way better than ball ammo, depending. You also must break hollow point hunting bullets into categories; varmint bullets and hunting bullets for big animals with heavy muscle and large bones.

The gun banners would love to eliminate all evil hollow point bullets, regardless of their use. Next thing you know, one of those asshats will decide that boat tail bullets are only useful for sniping.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:28:40 PM EDT
i read a study while back ,, cant for the life of me find it now,, but it said that 80% of ppl shot with HP ammo lived, while its was over 50% death with FMJ.....

wish i could find it. im searching ...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:30:55 PM EDT

The goal when using a handgun is to blast the target. Hollow points make a bigger hole but not that much bigger. In "Shooting to Live" Sykes and Fairbaron said "The more our handguns resemble machine guns the better we like it". That's right. Handguns do not possess the power rifles to destroy tissue by energy. Blast your target with three or more rounds of ball and you will be OK.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:37:23 PM EDT
shot placement is still the key.

I carry hollow points thu a little more forgiving. Ill take every edge I can take when it comes to protecting my life and the lives of those I love.
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